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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

Roland

When you download A19 you MUST start a new save. Maps generated in A18 will NOT work for A19 games. 

 

Head HERE to report bugs.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

They are not undead zombies. They are bio-chemical warfare zombies, but otherwise alive. At least, that was the explanation at one point. Aren't they called "infected"? Though "zombie" is used everywhere internally, I think the game tries to avoid calling them zombies.

Oh God... here we go.

So, one of my little nitpicks with this game is that there's little to no lore at all, and the devs haven't really defined what type of zombies they want at all either. Madmole has said many times in previous posts that these zombies are undead zombies, not infected (he said it recently when arguing about zombies not drowning). You can clearly see that zombies are injured with mortal wounds, such as having their faces torn apart and their skulls split open, showing their brains. You can also dismember all their limbs, yet they don't die of bleeding then, and can stay alive with no problem. Also, now with the new zombies it's even more clear that they're rotting corpses that walk, and that's the way the devs seemed to refer to the zombies. Clearly, they'd be the "undead" type, right?

Then how come they die of bleeding from a knife? 

Part of me hopes that the bleeding bonus is applied on zombies as a placeholder for when bandits and NPCs show up... Cause no aspect of the game hints at zombies being infected people that are still alive.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

well its still kinda being worked on...

Well then in that case it's kind of ok.  :)

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Snip for space

I agree that a bleeding bonus doesn't make sense on an entity with open and mortal wounds . Knifes would be better suited with some kind of critical damage to undead entities and bleeding as it is now should be left exclusively for living , breathing entities like animals and human npcs.

Also, bleeding deaths caused by the player  should give XP. Less so the bleeding ones  from traps.

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

there is plenty of books where zombies could die of bleeding

all the fuss on zombie lore here on this forum always made me laugh a little, i read, watch, play, eat and breathe zombies since a whas a kid, too many moon ago

sometimes they are dead, sometimes they are alive, sometimes they can die a change again when they die

sometimes the only thing stopping them is a trauma to the head, sometimes they can bleed or die from massive trauma

sometimes they can only walk, sometimes they run, sometimes there are different kind of zombies in the same book (movie, game or other media)

sometimes they are dumb, sometimes they have a collective mind, sometimes there are some leader that command the grunt

the only thing that all of them have in common is the name, but saying that zombies HAD to have some characteristic is nonsense

romero made an excellent movie, but even him reinvented the zed for his purpose, why TFP can't do the same?

Edited by Sakurambo (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, Sakurambo said:

SNIP

I'm not saying that there's only one true zombie lore that every media should follow, I'm saying that 7 days to die is failing at defining what theirs is. Suspension of disbelief is something many people laugh at, screaming "it's just a game, bro" everytime the topic pops up. Well, the problem is that suspension of disbelief is essential for immersion to work, just like in movies.

It's distracting and confusing when something just doesn't make sense for no reason at all. I get that some things have to be unrealistic, especially when gameplay comes into play, but when you want to tell a story, there needs to be some sort of rules to work with, otherwise it's just a lazy mess where everything counts.

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6 minutes ago, Sakurambo said:

there is plenty of books where zombies could die of bleeding

all the fuss on zombie lore here on this forum always made me laugh a little, i read, watch, play, eat and breathe zombies since a whas a kid, too many moon ago

sometimes they are dead, sometimes they are alive, sometimes they can die a change again when they die

sometimes the only thing stopping them is a trauma to the head, sometimes they can bleed or die from massive trauma

sometimes they can only walk, sometimes they run, sometimes there are different kind of zombies in the same book (movie, game or other media)

sometimes they are dumb, sometimes they have a collective mind, sometimes there are some leader that command the grunt

the only thing that all of them have in common is the name, but saying that zombies HAD to have some characteristic is nonsense

romero made an excellent movie, but even him reinvented the zed for his purpose, why TFP can't do the same?

Yeah? Then why can we blow off their limbs, and they won't bleed out then? I don't think the issue is fully that they can bleed out (at least not for me). I think it mostly has to do with consistency at this point. They can bleed out when you slice them, but they won't bleed out when you blow off their arms or legs? Sorry, just doesn't mesh well. Will they change it later? idk. hope they do though.

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3 minutes ago, Sakurambo said:

 

romero made an excellent movie, but even him reinvented the zed for his purpose, why TFP can't do the same?

 

well what else can you do with zombie?

Superfast Crack head zeds? L4D , WWZ and 7DTD many movies

basically immortal zombies: Dead space

Parasite infection: Halo Flood, the Last of us and Half life

Radioactive zombies: Fallout and metro (kinda metro)

mutated zombies with super powers? Almost any kind of zombie game

Zombies that are Smart? Romero zombies

zombies that are strong at nigh? 7DTD and Dying light

zombies controlled by a higher being? Halo flood and COD zombies

zombies Used as Super weapons: Almost every zombie game or show with the army

 

so zombies have been done to death, not saying thats bad its nice to have a Nice diverse zombie games and shows

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1 minute ago, Tin said:

Yeah? Then why can we blow off their limbs, and they won't bleed out then? I don't think the issue is fully that they can bleed out (at least not for me). I think it mostly has to do with consistency at this point. They can bleed out when you slice them, but they won't bleed out when you blow off their arms or legs? Sorry, just doesn't mesh well. Will they change it later? idk. hope they do though.

Exactly.

Remember when they showed the new burnt zombie? Many people disliked the new model because it looked too unrealistic. They devs listened and toned down the burnt effect, because immersion is also important.

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30 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Part of me hopes that the bleeding bonus is applied on zombies as a placeholder for when bandits and NPCs show up... Cause no aspect of the game hints at zombies being infected people that are still alive.

I don't know about "no aspect". I think some of these newspapers splattered on roads make reference to the "infected" lore. But, yeah, there's no lore, and until it goes Gold, they are allowed to change their minds as many times as they want, so there's no point in attributing particular characteristics to them at this point.

And, on a subnote, if we are to have a conversation about what a zombie is or is not, then all "zombie" references that don't adhere to the original haitian legends is non-canon must be ignored. Otherwise, we aren't talking about what a zombie should be, but about what version of zombie one likes. 

Sub-subnote: though "zombie" (the concept, not the word) is widely accepted as being Haitian in origin, I find it hard to believe it isn't African. Though one thing, "Nzumbi", which the wikipedia page on zombies says it's a work for "soul", was the surname of a famous brazilian figure of Kongolese origins from mid-17 century (commonly known as "Zumbi dos Palmares"). Anyway, I'd be happy to go back in the origins of the concept until any concept put forward becomes invalid, so that we can stop this non-sense of what a fictional entity should or should not be.

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21 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Also, bleeding deaths caused by the player  should give XP. Less so the bleeding ones  from traps.

That's how it works at the moment.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

SNIP for space

The newspapers just hint at some disease causing the outbreak, they don't really say if they're dead or not.

I don't know what they're gonna do with the lore in the future, but this rant I'm giving is based on what we have right now. And like I said, the problem isn't about what is or isn't a zombie, the problem is that the 7dtd zombies don't try to be anything, and that plays against immersion (for me at least).

Sure, they're fictional entities, but even so these things are important. I could definitely change the rules, and make a movie where vampires sparkle in the sun, but that's not such a good idea, is it?

 

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, dcsobral said:

That's how it works at the moment.

No. Deaths caused by bleeding do not give XP in A18.4 b4 (knife, barbed wire mod, etc) .

Trap deaths do. But only if they kill from the hit, not the bleeding buff . And not ALL traps give xp (that one is by design).

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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14 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

The newspapers just hint at some disease causing the outbreak, they don't really say if they're dead or not.

I don't know what they're gonna do with the lore in the future, but this rant I'm giving is based on what we have right now. And like I said, the problem isn't about what is or isn't a zombie, the problem is that the 7dtd zombies don't try to be anything, and that plays against immersion.

 

I don't understand what '7D2D zombies don't try to be anything' implies.  When I watch the Walking Dead, I don't think much of them try to be anything except getting some flesh/blood/brains into their systems somehow.  (And 7D2D doesn't even have to adhere to that lore if they don't want to.)  (I also don't try to extrapolate what I believe TFP wants me to think they (the 'zombies') do, as this is still in Alpha.)

I also don't understand why you imply that we have lore right now.  There have been all kinds of statements from TFP and MM and some have even contradicted others.  And I don't mean that as a negative.  Things change.  Probably including their non-public lore.  Which you state (meaning that you stated that future lore isn't defined yet), but then imply we have something now.

And, has been voiced many times previously, 'immersion' is relative.  There are people who find (still) text adventures and/or ascii games (NetHack, etc.) immersive.  (Maybe because they have great imaginations and can expand their thinking to include visuals of what they are doing.)

It seems 'weird' to attempt to 'reality rationalize' a lot of these things when there are so many other things that don't seem rather 'rational' (backpack sizes, zombies breaking through concrete, vehicle traveling speeds, etc.).

I am fully 'immersed' in this game (7500+) more so that the next 3 favorites of mine combined.  And that's as it is currently.  I am fairly certain I will accept whatever 'lore'/'reality'/'immersion'/'abstraction' they deem for gold.  And be very happy with it.

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As for bleeding:

1.  Extra XP for causing bleeding would seem to imply that there should be extra XP for knockdown with clubs.  And then start extrapolating for all other weapons.  That seems like a lot of work.  (Especially since they have stated they are trying to get to gold and already have a lot to do.)  And would be even more work if some other things change.  I am content with believing that xp earned with any kill is abstracted/averaged over all kills to include all of the special things I did.  Because, in effect, bleeding, knock-downs, etc. all cause the 'z' to die quicker, which itself is beneficial.  And, more specialized xp rewards seems like it would lead to more LBD - which they have stated they are currently avoiding.

2. Bleeding vs loss of limbs.  Could be placeholders for bandits (as previously stated).  Or not.  How about that 7D2D 'z' blood coagulates REALLY quickly upon contact with air, but players learn certain types of cuts, that cause the 'bleeding' effect to last longer.  And it could be that maybe it has to do with muscles or something else other than blood, but because the bleeding seemed to last longer people just referred to it as 'bleeding'.  (That never happens in real life...)

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1 hour ago, Tin said:

Yeah? Then why can we blow off their limbs, and they won't bleed out then? I don't think the issue is fully that they can bleed out (at least not for me). I think it mostly has to do with consistency at this point. They can bleed out when you slice them, but they won't bleed out when you blow off their arms or legs? Sorry, just doesn't mesh well. Will they change it later? idk. hope they do though.

Well, cuts and removed limbs aren't the same. Maybe the zombies react badly to sharp metal.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Quantum Blue said:

I don't understand what '7D2D zombies don't try to be anything' implies.  When I watch the Walking Dead, I don't think much of them try to be anything except getting some flesh/blood/brains into their systems somehow.  (And 7D2D doesn't even have to adhere to that lore if they don't want to.)  (I also don't try to extrapolate what I believe TFP wants me to think they (the 'zombies') do, as this is still in Alpha.)

You've picked a perfect example. The zombies in TWD are perfectly defined. Their world has rules and limits, and that's what makes the personality of the show. Their zombies are dead corpses that walk. The infection is in the brain, so they can't die till you destroy the brain. All people are infected, so if one dies, they become zombies. If all of a sudden, they show a zombie dying of bleeding, they've gone completely against their whole premise, and it falls apart. But they won't, because they have rules in their premise that they follow each episode. When I said that 7dtd zombies don't try to be anything it's exactly that: They don't try to be anything. They don't try to be infected people, like Left 4 Dead, and they don't try to be undead corpses, like TWD. They don't have any premise nor rules. They die of bleeding from a knife, but can walk without limbs and breathe underwater. 

41 minutes ago, Quantum Blue said:

I also don't understand why you imply that we have lore right now.  There have been all kinds of statements from TFP and MM and some have even contradicted others.  And I don't mean that as a negative.  Things change.  Probably including their non-public lore.  Which you state (meaning that you stated that future lore isn't defined yet), but then imply we have something now.

I didn't. That's the problem. We don't have lore beyond the unknown virus and the WWIII. I'm glad if they have plans for the lore in the future, but my arguments are based on what we have now in the game and what the devs have said in their comments, because those are the only reliable sources, and the fact that what the game presents contradicts itself is why I nitpick these things.

41 minutes ago, Quantum Blue said:

And, has been voiced many times previously, 'immersion' is relative.  There are people who find (still) text adventures and/or ascii games (NetHack, etc.) immersive.  (Maybe because they have great imaginations and can expand their thinking to include visuals of what they are doing.)

That's because the story makes sense. The format might be outdated, but the experience and the story they try to tell makes sense.

41 minutes ago, Quantum Blue said:

It seems 'weird' to attempt to 'reality rationalize' a lot of these things when there are so many other things that don't seem rather 'rational' (backpack sizes, zombies breaking through concrete, vehicle traveling speeds, etc.).

Again:

1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

I get that some things have to be unrealistic, especially when gameplay comes into play, but when you want to tell a story, there needs to be some sort of rules to work with, otherwise it's just a lazy mess where everything counts.

Also, this is just my experience. I love the game anyways, but I do wish it tried a bit harder on the details, because that's what differentiates Great from Perfect.

Also, sorry for the huge rant, everyone.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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Thank you for the response Xtrakicking.  I believe part of the confusion is from your statement "I don't know what they're gonna do with the lore in the future, but this rant I'm giving is based on what we have right now."

I took it to mean 'the LORE we have right now'.  I think you might have meant 'is more like the LORE we DON't have right now'.  (Meaning you meant the current state of things - or lack of things...)

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55 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

No. Deaths caused by bleeding do not give XP in A18.4 b4 (knife, barbed wire mod, etc) .

Trap deaths do. But only if they kill from the hit, not the bleeding buff . And not ALL traps give xp (that one is by design).

Have you played with blade-based builds? Bleeding does give XP. But don't trust me, trust your eyes: 

 

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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

I'm not saying that there's only one true zombie lore that every media should follow, I'm saying that 7 days to die is failing at defining what theirs is. Suspension of disbelief is something many people laugh at, screaming "it's just a game, bro" everytime the topic pops up. Well, the problem is that suspension of disbelief is essential for immersion to work, just like in movies.

It's distracting and confusing when something just doesn't make sense for no reason at all. I get that some things have to be unrealistic, especially when gameplay comes into play, but when you want to tell a story, there needs to be some sort of rules to work with, otherwise it's just a lazy mess where everything counts.

Pfft. None of that means anything. All that matters is the game is fun. We've deliberately been vague so we're not painted into a corner by hardcore fans who are dogmatic about lore and what is acceptable. They could be undead. That is just some voodoo word meaning "this guy should by all intensive purposes be dead, but is somehow still walking". We might get a little more rigid with our lore as we start pushing out more story towards the end, but during early alpha development we wanted to be vague so we could make a fun game, and not be having conversations regarding lore or have the fun police step in and ruin a good game mechanic.

If lore and immersion were so important Telltale would have survived instead of us.

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In my lore they are infected with a weaponized STD, like Super Aids or something.  I mean this is a Fun Pimps game after all.  Every 7 days they have a flair up and ravenously look for a new victim to hump. 

It works for me.  

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1 minute ago, madmole said:

Pfft. None of that means anything. All that matters is the game is fun. We've deliberately been vague so we're not painted into a corner by hardcore fans who are dogmatic about lore and what is acceptable. They could be undead. That is just some voodoo word meaning "this guy should by all intensive purposes be dead, but is somehow still walking". We might get a little more rigid with our lore as we start pushing out more story towards the end, but during early alpha development we wanted to be vague so we could make a fun game, and not be having conversations regarding lore or have the fun police step in and ruin a good game mechanic.

If lore and immersion were so important Telltale would have survived instead of us.

Sorry, but saying none of that means anything is just not true. It's important for a game to be fun, yes. It's also important for a game to be immersive. You can be vague with the lore and still make sense (TWD does this). You can make a great game that's incredibly fun and also make sense. You make it seem like it's either one or the other, as if both things couldn't coexist.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the giant bee removed because people complained it didn't fit in the game? Why did you remove the giant bee if immersion means nothing?

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Posted (edited)

Is the silencer for the shotgun going to make any actual diff? in vanilla there is virtually no reason to put one on over the choke as the shotgun is just super loud even with a silencer. What is the purpose of it?

I also hope Junk turret gets the nerfes it needs like a 10s pickup timer when placed outside of a land claim block, andmaybe drasticablly up land claim block craft times to compensate. They are easly the most OP and exploitable things in 7dtd currently and serve as a crutch for people who are meh at the game due to how good they are. Sadly this is going to get even worse with the drone, as now you have a mobile junk turret pretty much. Better have a HUGE cost to keep it flying.

Edited by Scyris (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, madmole said:

Pfft. None of that means anything. All that matters is the game is fun. We've deliberately been vague so we're not painted into a corner by hardcore fans who are dogmatic about lore and what is acceptable. They could be undead. That is just some voodoo word meaning "this guy should by all intensive purposes be dead, but is somehow still walking". We might get a little more rigid with our lore as we start pushing out more story towards the end, but during early alpha development we wanted to be vague so we could make a fun game, and not be having conversations regarding lore or have the fun police step in and ruin a good game mechanic.

If lore and immersion were so important Telltale would have survived instead of us.

Totally agree!  The zombie lore and immerision police gets tiring!

Edited by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)
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you want immersion or anybody else for that matter.... use your imagination... i do and i fooled my wife. :)

 

Spoiler

works in game and real life

 

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Our world and it's creatures are just pawns in a battle between Great Old Ones. The one known as Yidhra infects creatures that devour to feed her life force. Every 7 days she needs to feed though creatures linger about in between. The wright, spider zombie, cop, and screamer are just mutations from those infected.

Of course there's plenty of material from Lovecraft you could weave into the lore.

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