Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[madmole]

 

Yes Joel, we did upgrade and played for more than 1 week on the last version (at least in my case) before commenting here..however he is right. Not saying the AI or the game is bad or anything, not saying that you don't make progress with the game or that we don't appreciate it...it's just that...the AI doesn't feel zombie like, WAY TOO SMART and some of us still feel that way. If I were to log the hours played on 7 days to die...I'd say that 85% of the time is spent playing older versions.

 

You just can't change this Joel no matter how shocked you may be to hear it, some of us prefer the old AI because it was stupid and you can't change that. We love the game but everyone has it's preferences. There are many A18 features that I don't like but this is not the point of my comment.

 

I will tell you honestly my opinion about a thing, feel free to disagree with me or hate me, since it's your game. For example, when you want to implement such a feature as "rage", you should make a poll to see how many players actually want it, not just implement it right away like you did with the "no loot zombies" and get all the hate for it. This was just an example Joel, I couldn't care less that I can't loot zombies, but you always seem so "shocked" to hear people that say they prefer older versions or features of older versions, maybe you should stop being so shocked and listen to the players, give them a chance to vote to see if the majority would want such a feature. This is just a suggestion, not bashing anyone here. Still enjoying the game.

 

I respect your opinion but there just isn't any reason to do polls, we are confident with our designs as you guys don't have enough information to think, and don't know the full picture and each version is always missing critical ingredients to the recipe so while you might hate or dislike a current thing, it often is just an interim step towards the bigger picture which we are sure will be better received. It would be like casting a vote without knowing anything about the candidates. For all you know we are focus testing the engineer zombies for a build, and that will be used for bandit raids later and zeds will have dumb ai. The plan is that special infected might not even be zombies, but heavily radiated humans so radiated zombies do not want to eat them. Noone knows for sure but they are violent psychopaths that have some form of intelligence yet.

 

A lot of people hated alpha 17, it wasn't that bad, it was just missing proper books and schematics. Fundamentally 18 is the same, but without that one hook 17 was not liked. Obviously too many zombies use the engineer ai right now, but as we get closer to gold it will all feel better. Like with 17 I was super excited about the capabilities. To me you hand me a paint brush and a canvas I'm having a blast, where a lot of people are too short sighted to see what isn't right in front of them. I saw potential and turned it into a masterpiece that has outsold every other version of the game, just like I see the AI as nothing but pure potential right now. So that might be the shocking difference, I know where we're going with all this cool tech, you judge it as it is. Just like our first new version of rwg... just wait. We now have full random biomes, no duplicate pois in the same area, and adjustable biome percentage so you could roll a map with 90% forest if you wanted. I'm not saying that feature is available to users, I'm saying the tech exists now.

 

I get it though, for all you know the AI is done. The last of the old AI you liked was like 16 alphas. It was the most polished version of some rudimentary stuff with 16 iterations. You've only seen 2 iterations of faatal AI, so be patient.

[madmole]

 

That might b a missed diversity opportunity. I know the base model probably has a painted scalp color, but maybe there can be less drastic but still different color variations? Or better still, a base hair texture color, but shader variations or just the new hair color texture?

 

That might be worth exploring.

 

We can make variants very easily just by replacing the albedo texture and making a new prefab. But we want to get all the replacements in and the new ones planned done, then see how that feels. It might not even be needed. I don't care about variations, it doesn't do much for me. I'd rather see a new zombie. For every 4 variants we add, the memory would allow for one more brand new unique zombie which to me is way better.

[SnowDog1942]

A lot of people hated alpha 17, it wasn't that bad, it was just missing proper books and schematics. Fundamentally 18 is the same, but without that one hook 17 was not liked.

 

LOL!

 

So all that time to develop A18 and the only thing it added was books and schematics?

 

Don't sell yourself (and A18) short --- A18 was a massive massive improvement over A17 in many ways... including the fact that A17 ran like dog poop on any PC.

[Xtrakicking]

 

We can make variants very easily just by replacing the albedo texture and making a new prefab. But we want to get all the replacements in and the new ones planned done, then see how that feels. It might not even be needed. I don't care about variations, it doesn't do much for me. I'd rather see a new zombie. For every 4 variants we add, the memory would allow for one more brand new unique zombie which to me is way better.

 

The problem some players have (counting myself) is that, once you've seen a zombie 5 times, it stops being new and unique. Once you've seen it hundreds, maybe thousands of times, doing the same animations, it stops feeling like a zombie and it begins to feel more like a clone. That ends up, believe it or not, breaking a bit of the immersion, because you start to notice the artifical aspects of the game, and the world stops feeling "alive" or "real".

 

Some games, like Left 4 Dead, have random look variations in their zombies precisely to avoid this problem. They also avoid making zombies that stand out too much (and I'm glad you guys took the same decision with these new zombies).

 

I think the best solution to this problem, avoiding a variation system, would be to add a very decayed looking zombie, since very decayed corpses generally look the same (very rotten greenish skin, bones showing, clothing so stained and ripped apart it doesn't stand out, etc). That way, even if it's the same model, it doesn't feel like a clone, because all zombies that are very decayed look the same.

 

The Walking Dead does this many times. Almost all their zombies look the same, yet all of them feel different as well.

[SnowDog1942]

 

The Walking Dead does this many times. Almost all their zombies look the same, yet all of them feel different as well.

 

But the walking dead is trash no matter what the zombies look or feel like. There are more important things to deal with.

[Xtrakicking]

 

But the walking dead is trash no matter what the zombies look or feel like. There are more important things to deal with.

 

Not only is this your personal opinion, but it also doesn't make the argument any less valid. "There are more important things to deal with", yes it's true, and since the devs are reworking the zombies for Alpha 19, I'd say the way the zombies look and feel is one of them.

[SnowDog1942]

 

Not only is this your personal opinion, but it also doesn't make the argument any less valid. "There are more important things to deal with", yes it's true, and since the devs are reworking the zombies for Alpha 19, I'd say the way the zombies look and feel is one of them.

 

Should we all say "this is my personal opinion" anymore before we say anything else that is obviously our personal opinion?

 

In my personal opinion, I'm not sure they are reworking the zombies. "Reworking" would lead one to believe (in my personal opinion) that there there is more than updated models happening. I haven't heard any evidence of that - in my personal opinion.

[Xtrakicking]

 

Should we all say "this is my personal opinion" anymore before we say anything else that is obviously our personal opinion?

 

 

You used it to try to defend the argument that the show is trash no matter how different the zombies look, so obviously I just pointed out that that was your opinion, and that many people love the show still, one of the reasons being that it still has great production value, staging quality and attention to detail. Same applies to every other media, including this game.

[SnowDog1942]

 

You used it to try to defend the argument that the show is trash no matter how different the zombies look, so obviously I just pointed out that that was your opinion, and that many people love the show still, one of the reasons being that it still has great production value, staging quality and attention to detail. Same applies to every other media, including this game.

 

I take it back.. its not my personal opinion -- the show IS trash.

 

Group of survivors meets people - they are bad - shock death.

Group of survivors meets new people - they are bad - shock death

Group of survivors meets new people again -- they are bad -- shock death

Group of survivors meets yet another new group of people -- PLOT TWIST -- they are bad! -- shock death.

 

LOL

 

If people like trash.. thats fine! but it doesn't change the fact

[Xtrakicking]

 

 

In my personal opinion, I'm not sure they are reworking the zombies. "Reworking" would lead one to believe (in my personal opinion) that there there is more than updated models happening. I haven't heard any evidence of that - in my personal opinion.

 

They redid their models and upgraded them to detailed HD versions.

They redid, therefore, their textures.

Roland has commented that they have some sort of new movements or animations.

They are cutting some of them out and adding new ones.

 

Yes, they are reworking the zombies.

 

And yes, you can taunt me by repeating that it's your personal opinion if you want. My point still stands.

 

 

If people like trash.. thats fine! but it doesn't change the fact

 

Not sure what fact you're talking about. I never said anything about the script of the show, and that doesn't even matter here, I'm talking about the production value and attention to detail, which is inarguably good, even if you dislike the take on the story.

[madmole]

 

LOL!

 

So all that time to develop A18 and the only thing it added was books and schematics?

 

Don't sell yourself (and A18) short --- A18 was a massive massive improvement over A17 in many ways... including the fact that A17 ran like dog poop on any PC.

 

I'm just saying the bones and tech were there. The devil is in the details. But had it shipped with books (ie, something to get off your ass and get) it would have been a lot better, but yeah no A18).

[madmole]

I think TFP is a unique studio where we just want to create a fun game that is a unique and very memorable experience. We're not making a zombie simulation. We think its cool people talk about zombie Arlene. Or a screamer, Zombie Boe, etc. They are memorable and look unique and that is what we're going for so all this talk of making zombies blend in and not be repetitive is not inline with the experience we're selling. I killed 1000's of draugr in Skyrim and never once cared they all look the same, what I cared about was they were a unique experience in the game, different than bandits and way more dangerous than skeletons because some of them could shout and cast frost magic, and few of them went down easy until you were high level.

 

 

[AtomicUs5000]

 

Kind of makes playing the whole game pointless to watch someone else cheese it when you can just learn it organically and not ruin it with cheese. Then you spread the cheese, like corona. Shame. Not that we won't address AI exploits but there will always be some ways to cheese for those looking hard enough.

 

Everyone says this, but it should stop. It's only a valid argument when AI exploits are indeed hard to find, or at least difficult to progress yourself to the point of being able to exploit it. This has never been the case since the beginning. The best answer to this is that it's a work in progress. Just two alphas ago you were safe buried 2 blocks into the ground. I don't think we're at the stage where this card can be played.

 

[TSBX]

 

I take it back.. its not my personal opinion -- the show IS trash.

 

Group of survivors meets people - they are bad - shock death.

Group of survivors meets new people - they are bad - shock death

Group of survivors meets new people again -- they are bad -- shock death

Group of survivors meets yet another new group of people -- PLOT TWIST -- they are bad! -- shock death.

 

LOL

 

If people like trash.. thats fine! but it doesn't change the fact

 

What exactly does plot have to do with the quality of makeup/design? The zombies themselves look pretty good, and I for one, dig the fact that they've shown the aging they have over the years.

Additionally, yeah, Kick's right. They definitely ARE re-working the zombies, as evidenced in this very thread.

 

False equivalency is a hell of a drug.

 

[Xtrakicking]

I think TFP is a unique studio where we just want to create a fun game that is a unique and very memorable experience. We're not making a zombie simulation. We think its cool people talk about zombie Arlene. Or a screamer, Zombie Boe, etc. They are memorable and look unique and that is what we're going for so all this talk of making zombies blend in and not be repetitive is not inline with the experience we're selling. I killed 1000's of draugr in Skyrim and never once cared they all look the same, what I cared about was they were a unique experience in the game, different than bandits and way more dangerous than skeletons because some of them could shout and cast frost magic, and few of them went down easy until you were high level.

 

 

I'm really sorry, madmole, but then what was this all about??:

 

 

Pretty much, when you watch the walking dead none of them stand out in the crowd too much.

 

Besides, the game doesn't have to be a zombie simulation, but it does have to be immersive. Draugrs were so decayed, they were pretty much skeletons, so obviously it's not jarring that they look the same.

[TSBX]

MM: Just because you interpret anything besides blind praise as "hate" or uninformed judgement doesn't mean it's not valid. Especially considering that the whole game is unfinished and always has been. If we had stuck to that philosophy we'd be fighting fire golems today and not have the bellows, which contributed to having the workstation tools. Or chickens for that matter. Or the blood moon on horde nights, and that's just off the top of my head. (For those not in the know, those were all community suggestions that made it into vanilla.)

 

Additionally, once things ARE done, it turns into a case of, "No, sorry, it's finished. We're not going to change it because we already put time and effort into it. Programmer time isn't free you know!"

 

Variety is what keeps games like this alive. Look at any game with an active modding community, and most of the top mods are either large mechanical changes (more gameplay content) or More X, X Extended, X+ ( smaller variations or additions to vanilla content).

[SnowDog1942]

 

What exactly does plot have to do with the quality of makeup/design?

 

 

Unless this is a trick question, i'd guess.. nothing?

 

[Xtrakicking]

 

Unless this is a trick question, i'd guess.. nothing?

 

Exactly.

[Dethar]

Unless you have hundreds of variations, its waste of time and game resources. Any game I've played even with lots of variations was all similar within 40 hours of play.

[Xtrakicking]

Unless you have hundreds of variations, its waste of time and game resources. Any game I've played even with lots of variations was all similar within 40 hours of play.

 

It's not hard to add variation without wasting resources. Again, we can use games such as Left 4 Dead as examples.

[madmole]

MM: Just because you interpret anything besides blind praise as "hate" or uninformed judgement doesn't mean it's not valid. Especially considering that the whole game is unfinished and always has been. If we had stuck to that philosophy we'd be fighting fire golems today and not have the bellows, which contributed to having the workstation tools. Or chickens for that matter. Or the blood moon on horde nights, and that's just off the top of my head. (For those not in the know, those were all community suggestions that made it into vanilla.)

 

Additionally, once things ARE done, it turns into a case of, "No, sorry, it's finished. We're not going to change it because we already put time and effort into it. Programmer time isn't free you know!"

 

Variety is what keeps games like this alive. Look at any game with an active modding community, and most of the top mods are either large mechanical changes (more gameplay content) or More X, X Extended, X+ ( smaller variations or additions to vanilla content).

 

It doesn't matter what is valid. What matters is we sell and get to hopefully profit enough make a sequel and stay in business. TFP has grown a lot but we still don't have the man power to solve every immersion problem you guys have because you already played for 10000 hours. New buyers don't care if zombies get repetitive after playing it, they want to have fun. Some people get hung up on the details, others could care less. We'll add as many zombies as we can but right now getting the old low res ones is the priority.

 

If we listened to every squeaky wheel we'd never get anywhere. We did that and look what it got us? People are like 7 years in alpha. So with all due respect we have to make decisions that fit the vision for the game and stay on schedule so we can't address every single concern. In order to do ALL the things we do, some things have to be sacrificed. This is a very ambitious game, so where it lacks in immersion we hope to pacify with great game play and a unique experience. As we make sequels we hope to address some of these things but you can't make your first game in a series perfect. That is what iterating on sequels is for.

 

 

 

[madmole]

 

It's not hard to add variation without wasting resources. Again, we can use games such as Left 4 Dead as examples.

 

Lol ok. I recall reading an article about how their systems were ground breaking. Valve has more money and resources than any other dev. Remember people we have to pick our battles. Its not that it wouldn't be cool, its that we can do that and delete a main quest. I think most people want some kind of main quest.

[Aldranon]

I liked the first episode of TWD, season 1. It went slowly(?) downhill from there.

I liked the first season of Fear the walking dead for the most part, then, not so much.

 

Edit: Oh right, my point!

The point is all good stories have and end point. If they continue past that point, it becomes somewhat soap opera-ish. Just people blandly talking.

[Xtrakicking]

 

Lol ok. I recall reading an article about how their systems were ground breaking. Valve has more money and resources than any other dev. Remember people we have to pick our battles. Its not that it wouldn't be cool, its that we can do that and delete a main quest. I think most people want some kind of main quest.

 

No one is saying better looking zombies will take away "the main quest". Heck, the new zombies are already a step towards a more immersive experience, at least in my opinion, so clearly you don't need "ground breaking systems" to achieve that goal.

[Laz Man]

 

I respect your opinion but there just isn't any reason to do polls, we are confident with our designs as you guys don't have enough information to think, and don't know the full picture and each version is always missing critical ingredients to the recipe so while you might hate or dislike a current thing, it often is just an interim step towards the bigger picture which we are sure will be better received. It would be like casting a vote without knowing anything about the candidates. For all you know we are focus testing the engineer zombies for a build, and that will be used for bandit raids later and zeds will have dumb ai. The plan is that special infected might not even be zombies, but heavily radiated humans so radiated zombies do not want to eat them. Noone knows for sure but they are violent psychopaths that have some form of intelligence yet.

 

A lot of people hated alpha 17, it wasn't that bad, it was just missing proper books and schematics. Fundamentally 18 is the same, but without that one hook 17 was not liked. Obviously too many zombies use the engineer ai right now, but as we get closer to gold it will all feel better. Like with 17 I was super excited about the capabilities. To me you hand me a paint brush and a canvas I'm having a blast, where a lot of people are too short sighted to see what isn't right in front of them. I saw potential and turned it into a masterpiece that has outsold every other version of the game, just like I see the AI as nothing but pure potential right now. So that might be the shocking difference, I know where we're going with all this cool tech, you judge it as it is. Just like our first new version of rwg... just wait. We now have full random biomes, no duplicate pois in the same area, and adjustable biome percentage so you could roll a map with 90% forest if you wanted. I'm not saying that feature is available to users, I'm saying the tech exists now.

 

I get it though, for all you know the AI is done. The last of the old AI you liked was like 16 alphas. It was the most polished version of some rudimentary stuff with 16 iterations. You've only seen 2 iterations of faatal AI, so be patient.

 

Probably one of your best responses to date MM. Thank you for the insight!