Cooking has now become obsolete

[guardianangelmp]

C'mon, it's much more than that. Run the numbers or just try everything and pay attention, higher-quality cooked meals _dramatically_ cut the danger and loss. Which, I should have noticed, plain old spoilage would not do. A flat per-meal chance does: reduce the number of meals, reduce your losses-per-stamina-cap-point, even if you run minimum-stamina that'll only lower the cap you maintain, not how many meals you have to eat to reach it. Running minimum-stamina might let you live on charred meat and never risk much, I guess that might work for the gunzerkers.

 

While higher quality cooked foods do, overall, give less chance of food poisoning (since you need to eat less).....how does any of that make the food poisoning mechanic anything beyond just a resource drain?

 

You still overcome food poisoning by eating more food. Original food poisoning was on raw or rotting meat, it was a punishment for eating something you shouldn't. Then it was put on raw fruits and veggies, which was stupid in my mind. Now it's on cooked foods and you have to ask "why?"

 

The only reason I can come up with, since the negative effect of food poisoning doesn't have a huge impact overall, is to function as a way to drain resources from the player to make surviving more difficult.

 

The problem with this is it's a waste of a debuff using a lame mechanic. If you don't want the player to have as much food then adjust the recipes to require more ingredients.

[Liesel Weppen]

If you don't want the player to have as much food then adjust the recipes to require more ingredients.

Then players will just make their garden bigger.

 

If you want players to have less food, you need to limit the ressources needed to craft food.

As long as there is an infinite source of food, which is additionally easy and without reasonable effort of time doable (like planting crops yourself), you will not reduce food amount.

[meganoth]

In early game food poisoning is a way of making the survival game felt. If you are not careful or new to the game you will get into a situation at least once where you are out in the wild, low on stamina and desperately looking for food. For some time afterwards you will be eating such food with a sense of fearful anticipation.

 

And for a survival game that is a good thing, by the way.

 

Experienced players like us (who know where to get cans and what vitamins do) won't get into those situations anymore and won't have any noticable resource drain. We still have to deal with it in one of multiple ways if we don't want to look like idiots.

 

Ergo, resource drain is not the reason for this mechanic, having a survival mechanic in the game is.

[guardianangelmp]

Experienced players like us (who know where to get cans and what vitamins do) won't get into those situations anymore and won't have any noticable resource drain. We still have to deal with it in one of multiple ways if we don't want to look like idiots.

 

Ergo, resource drain is not the reason for this mechanic, having a survival mechanic in the game is.

 

I have never used a vitamin playing the game....the are effectively useless with how food poisoning is now.

 

 

Dysentery is a survival mechanic. Small, reasonable risk of getting and effect can't be easily taken care of if you are not anticipating it. It also has the "ticking clock" effect, which adds to the urgency of the condition.

 

Food poisoning has no presence, you just wonder "why is my stamina low". The effect of food poisoning can be easily negated by......eating more food.

 

Food poisoning is even worse than the infection debuff.

 

There is no significant effect on gameplay as a result of food poisoning or infection debuffs.

[Kalen]

I have never used a vitamin playing the game....the are effectively useless with how food poisoning is now.

 

Whether you like the mechanic or not, I can't see how vitamins are useless. You want to make sure you don't get poisoning, take a vitamin before eating and you won't. It may not be a big deal, or all that exciting... but it certainly isn't useless.

[RipClaw]

I have never used a vitamin playing the game....the are effectively useless with how food poisoning is now.

 

Vitamins give you the possibility to eat for example Sham Sandwitches without any risk and this can be very useful in the early game if you run low on food.

 

Sham Sandwitches give 28 food but have a 12% chance of food poisoning. If you take vitamins then you can eat the sandwitches without running the risk of getting food poisoning.

[Liesel Weppen]

The point is, food poisoning is a little threat in the beginning. It's not a big deal to put up food mass production. Once you have food production, you can fight food poisoning by just eat again, because you have way enough food anyway. Vitamins are useless then.

 

Food poisoning is just an issue if you don't use food production. If you just occasionally cook one single meal when you just found the necessary ingredients "accidentially". If this happens you most likely also found some vitamins. But who does that?

 

As you can read from different food-threads, people tend to either only eat cans with 0% food poisoning chance (loot them, buy them off traders) or they do mass production with a garden. In both ways, food poisoning is not a real issue.

[Kalen]

Food poisoning is just an issue if you don't use food production. If you just occasionally cook one single meal when you just found the necessary ingredients "accidentially". If this happens you most likely also found some vitamins. But who does that?

 

Exactly.... different ways of playing. If you don't stock pile food then poisoning can be a moderate inconvenience so vitamins have a use.

[Liesel Weppen]

A theoretical one, yes, but not a practical.

 

If you decided not to start own food production but to rely on cans, don't eat found stews, especially if it is your last piece of food, otherwise you could counter food poisoning with more food.

 

So the possibilities left where you REALLY need vitamins are so really little cornercases...

[RipClaw]

Food poisoning is just an issue if you don't use food production. If you just occasionally cook one single meal when you just found the necessary ingredients "accidentially". If this happens you most likely also found some vitamins. But who does that?

 

Sometimes you can't use food production.

 

I was watching a stream yesterday and the player was struggling with a lack of food.

He's in his first week so he doesn't have a garden and hasn't had any luck with hunting.

 

So he is dependent on finding food in POIs but had no luck finding enough cans. But he found sham sandwitches and vitamins and that helped him to bring his max stamina back up.

[Kalen]

A theoretical one, yes, but not a practical.

 

If you decided not to start own food production but to rely on cans, don't eat found stews, especially if it is your last piece of food, otherwise you could counter food poisoning with more food.

 

So the possibilities left where you REALLY need vitamins are so really little cornercases...

 

I didn't say no food production.... I'm referring to limited food production. Just enough to produce a stew or 2 every now and then. Vitamins would be very useful. Like I said, different ways of playing. Vitamins may not be useful to you, but they will be to someone.

[guardianangelmp]

I didn't say no food production.... I'm referring to limited food production. Just enough to produce a stew or 2 every now and then. Vitamins would be very useful. Like I said, different ways of playing. Vitamins may not be useful to you, but they will be to someone.

 

 

Only useful to inexperienced players. Anyone who has any experience with the game can get by without any issue without using vitamins.

 

While vitamins have a function, they are effectively useless because the instance where vitamins are useful can be easily bypassed.

 

Also, sham sandwiches now only have one function....to make moldy bread. I think TFP need to get rid of that "legacy nonsense" to help the game run smoother. XD

[Kalen]

Only useful to inexperienced players. Anyone who has any experience with the game can get by without any issue without using vitamins.

 

While vitamins have a function, they are effectively useless because the instance where vitamins are useful can be easily bypassed.

 

Also, sham sandwiches now only have one function....to make moldy bread. I think TFP need to get rid of that "legacy nonsense" to help the game run smoother. XD

 

You could say the same thing about a lot of things.... you can easily get by without NVG, does that mean they're useless?

 

Vitamins have a use.... they are a convenience that you can chose to forego. That does not make them effectively useless.

[guardianangelmp]

You could say the same thing about a lot of things.... you can easily get by without NVG, does that mean they're useless?

 

Vitamins have a use.... they are a convenience that you can chose to forego. That does not make them effectively useless.

 

If I have a machine that puts my hat on my head for me, but with minimal effort I can place my hat on my head myself it would make that machine effectively useless. While, yes, it does have a use, the task that it completes can be done another way, with minimal effort (and likely more reliably) which would mean the machine isn't needed and effectively useless.

 

The same is for vitamins in game, because the food poisoning mechanic is too simplistic.

 

And what in the world is NVG....

[Kalen]

If I have a machine that puts my hat on my head for me, but with minimal effort I can place my hat on my head myself it would make that machine effectively useless. While, yes, it does have a use, the task that it completes can be done another way, with minimal effort (and likely more reliably) which would mean the machine isn't needed and effectively useless.

 

The same is for vitamins in game, because the food poisoning mechanic is too simplistic.

 

And what in the world is NVG....

 

NVG = Night vision googles. Once again.... saying its effectively useless to you, does not make it effectively useless. The very fact that someone else (me, in this case) says that its not effectively useless to them means that it has use.

 

It's ok to disagree.

[guardianangelmp]

NVG = Night vision googles. Once again.... saying its effectively useless to you, does not make it effectively useless. The very fact that someone else (me, in this case) says that its not effectively useless to them means that it has use.

 

It's ok to disagree.

 

I still feel you are not understanding what I'm saying.

 

Effectively useless =/= Useless

 

Effectively useless = the purpose/task for the item is used can easily be done by other means and that item has no other use than the singular task for which it was made.

 

Useless = the item has no use at all.

 

 

Are you saying that keeping your food up is so difficult that having vitamins makes playing the game easier? Because that is what you are arguing.

 

I'm saying that vitamins have a use, yes, but the only task they serve can easily be accomplished by other, more reliable (since you can't count on having vitamins at all times) means.....therefore having vitamins is inconsequential, as well as the effect they provide, which makes them.... effectively useless.

 

But I guess, yes, there are people who won't be able to find ways around "needing" to use vitamins.....but I feel sorry for them and their problem solving abilities.

[Kalen]

I still feel you are not understanding what I'm saying.

 

Effectively useless =/= Useless

 

Effectively useless = the purpose/task for the item is used can easily be done by other means and that item has no other use than the singular task for which it was made.

 

Useless = the item has no use at all.

 

 

Are you saying that keeping your food up is so difficult that having vitamins makes playing the game easier? Because that is what you are arguing.

 

I'm saying that vitamins have a use, yes, but the only task they serve can easily be accomplished by other, more reliable (since you can't count on having vitamins at all times) means.....therefore having vitamins is inconsequential, as well as the effect they provide, which makes them.... effectively useless.

 

But I guess, yes, there are people who won't be able to find ways around "needing" to use vitamins.....but I feel sorry for them and their problem solving abilities.

 

Uh, no that is not what I'm saying..... there is a middle ground between "needing" to use vitamins and vitamins being "effectively useless".

[meganoth]

Effectively useless = the purpose/task for the item is used can easily be done by other means and that item has no other use than the singular task for which it was made.

 

So canned food is effectively useless by your definition.

 

Canned food has no other use than to feed the player. Check

 

Feeding the player can easily be done with meat, vitamins and sandwiches, and some barfing. Check.

[BobTheBard]

So canned food is effectively useless by your definition.

 

Canned food has no other use than to feed the player. Check

 

Feeding the player can easily be done with meat, vitamins and sandwiches, and some barfing. Check.

 

Incorrect, because canned food can feed the player without the barfing since it has 0% food poisoning chance. You're saving a whole step there!

 

I'd say the definition of 'effectively useless' is 'this item's use case is so narrow or so niche that the circumstances in which it is useful will probably never come up for the average player.' So far as vitamins go... yeah, I can kinda see that. Food isn't exactly hard to come by, and if you bother cooking the food it typically has a low enough food poisoning chance that you shouldn't worry much about it. Where I can see vitamins edging into 'useful' territory is for people who play on extremely low loot percentages who also don't farm, since food is going to be quite rare then, but that is, to go back to my own definition, a niche case.

 

Other examples of 'effectively useless' in my mind would be the blunderbuss and the stun baton.

[AtomicUs5000]

Cooking has become obsolete... well, really I think it’s the same.

 

I’m still mainly cooking bacon and eggs and don’t bother with anything else. Nothing has changed in that regard. You can get enough vitamins to eat it quite regularly without worry too... if it even does make you worry.

 

Only real issue is that all this work has gone into useless recipes... but I’m sure that problem will be solved soon.

[Aldranon]

This is a survival game. Part of the fun is the struggle. No struggle = no fun.

 

"If everyone in the world pointed to where "UP" was, they would all be right and wrong at the same time!" -Al (the great and powerful... yet humble).

 

Fun is what a person says it is, and it can change from moment to moment!

 

So, how to make this game fun for as many people as possible would be good both financially and for players?

Step 1: Include as many options to the game as possible.

Step 2: Refer to step 1.

[OzHawkeye]

So, how to make this game fun for as many people as possible would be good both financially and for players?

Step 1: Include as many options to the game as possible.

Step 2: Refer to step 1.

 

I agree with the basic idea behind that, absolutely. That said though, I'd insert "realistically" between "as" and "possible" in Step 1 there. Each option comes with a cost, the cost of coding for it, and perhaps even more expensively, the cost of testing and balancing it. It's not an automatic "option it, because we can" sort of thing.

 

Same with food spoilage - to do it, the Pimps have to code it, balance it and support it - so I expect they'll only do it, if they really wanna (and then I'll mod it out... hehe).

[Viktoriusiii]

"If everyone in the world pointed to where "UP" was, they would all be right and wrong at the same time!" -Al (the great and powerful... yet humble).

 

Fun is what a person says it is, and it can change from moment to moment!

 

So, how to make this game fun for as many people as possible would be good both financially and for players?

Step 1: Include as many options to the game as possible.

Step 2: Refer to step 1.

 

BS. Sure options are great, but if they take so much time that other features get neglected, options are worse.

 

I'd rather have 10 games that do a specific thing brilliantly than 10 that do everything a bit.

A SURVIVAL game should make you struggle for SURVIVAL. That is part of the genre.

Thats like putting out a drivers game where you can choose to let the A.I. drive for you. (OH WAIT...*)

 

So some extra features are nice. As are options. But either its a survival game or not.

You cant make a shooter without guns, a fighting game with just dialogue, ...

 

"If everyone in the world pointed to where "the core of the earth" was, they would all be right even if their direction differed!" -nobody

 

To explain:

"UP" is so generic... that would be as if 7d2d was just "A GAME". Obviously everyone has different opinions on what a good game is.

BUT "Survival" is a direction. And even if you are on the other side of the earth, "Survival" is still the same, even if slightly tilted from your/my view.

 

 

 

*that was in reference to that on relatively modern game where oyu could actually do that and the A.I. would win everything for you... don't know the name tho

[Aldranon]

NM, dont care so much anymore.

[Liesel Weppen]

A SURVIVAL game should make you struggle for SURVIVAL. That is part of the genre.

[...]

"Survival" is still the same, even if slightly tilted from your/my view.

 

For me core of the survival genre is environmental survival. You need to drink, you need food, you need heat if it is cold, you need cooling when it is hot, you need rest (stamina). Maybe water and food is affected by weather, early winter might destroy your crops before harvesting. Then you might get a struggle surviving in winter because of low food. Maybe even you are forced to move your location because of environmental changes.

That doesn't mean you have always fight for food and are nearly starving all the time, but imho also in midgame and endgame it should be possible for situations to occur that make it a temporarily struggle again. (But maybe such things come with the event-system?) Just plant a huge enough garden, maybe even oversize it as it takes no maintenance at all, harvesting is quick and the harvested stuff doesn't even spoil, and nothing unexpected can happen (like crop failure, infestation, lack of water, heat, cold, moving radiation clouds, ...) has nothing to do with "survival".

 

The Bloodmoon basically has nothing to do with "survival". It's just towerdefense or... is there a special name for genres you fight just enemies coming in waves? Or would you call Doom or Killing Floor "survival"?

 

So yes, i'd say too, 7 days to die goes away from survival and becomes more like a loot-shooter. It's still a crossover with survival-aspects, but they have become minor. Figth through POIs for loot and "survive" bloodmoon is not "survival". That doesn't mean i don't like it, i do.

 

Basically if you turn off bloodmoon, then you see what's left in the game what is true survival.... and it is obviously not much.