Cooking has now become obsolete

[Roland]

now lets take food poisoning:

 

1. does it add to the challenge?

Meh... probably for the majority. I personally never run out of food, even if I try, but I'm not the majority so I'll say yes.

2. does it add to the gameplay and does it connect to other mechanics?

No. You just have to eat more of it. Meaning the only thing it does do is more challenge. Maybe vitamins and one specific perk.

3. Is there counterplay?

Only if you count prevention (that you can not always do and never feels like you need it since the chance is so small) with vitamins or iron gut. If you have it, the only thing you can do is eat again.

4. Is it fun? No. I do not feel like I did something special after not beeing food poisoned. I do not feel special for "wasting" vitamins or perkpoints.

 

1) Does it add to the challenge?

 

It can situationally. For example, in the early days when you don't have backup food and then you are suddenly thrust into panic mode and the plans you had get supplanted by the immediate survival goal of not starving. Or if you don't plan well and are caught mid quest with a now empty stomach and no food to try and complete the rest of the quest. That is the thing about survival games--if you make an error in judgement you run the risk of getting caught flat footed against random bad events-- unless there are no random bad events because someone has no tolerance for punishment of any kind in a game...

 

2) Does it add to the gameplay?

 

Again it definitely can depending on your preparation and caution. Not everyone is always prepared and not everyone remembers to be cautious all the time so when player error happens and then vomiting follows there can be some tense gameplay and anxiety about getting back to fullness again. You know...just like getting hit by a zombie. If you have bandages set on your belt and/or some pills and water on hand then there is really no gameplay to speak of more than what you mentioned. Pop a pill and drink some water or use a bandage and there is no challenge. But....get caught without those preparations and now you are trying to finish a quest without getting hit even once again and that brings the challenge.

 

3) Is there counterplay?

 

The vomit itself is like a huge hit from a zombie. You don't counterplay off of the hit itself you recover your health after the damage is applied and that is the counterplay. Sometimes it will be easy because you are well prepared. Sometimes it will be more challenging because you have to run back to your base for extra medical supplies and every vulture will be attracted to you on the way. Same with vomit. The vomit event happens and then your stamina and recovery stats take a big hit and the counterplay is recovering. If you have a bunch of canned food or more cooked meals right away then there is no challenge-- but if you don't then you're going to experience some challenging disruption to your current plans as you work to recover. Even though food poisoning seems closer in concept to being infected than it does to taking physical damage in practice it is nothing like infection. It is a single instant event like getting hit and not an ongoing effect like infection so you can't really accurately compare the counterplay of food poisoning to infection because they are unlike each other.

 

4) Is it fun?

 

Shame on you. Of course it is fun for those who like it and unfun for those who don't. I personally love the uncertainty I feel when I eat now and when I successfully get my fullness back up to above my stamina max without vomiting I feel a pleasing relief. And when it does happen I will recover however I can and my plans will get disrupted which could lead to other mistakes which could cause the game to suddenly get very challenging.

 

5) Is it a punishment?

 

Damn straight. Get used to it. Not every event in the game is designed to make you feel special. Sometimes you just get hammered and then the striving to recover is its own intrinsic reward if you are successful.

 

I'm here all week and twice on Tuesdays.

[Viktoriusiii]

1) Does it add to the challenge?

 

It can situationally. For example, in the early days when you don't have backup food and then you are suddenly thrust into panic mode and the plans you had get supplanted by the immediate survival goal of not starving. Or if you don't plan well and are caught mid quest with a now empty stomach and no food to try and complete the rest of the quest. That is the thing about survival games--if you make an error in judgement you run the risk of getting caught flat footed against random bad events-- unless there are no random bad events because someone has no tolerance for punishment of any kind in a game...

 

as i said.

 

2) Does it add to the gameplay?

 

Again it definitely can depending on your preparation and caution. Not everyone is always prepared and not everyone remembers to be cautious all the time so when player error happens and then vomiting follows there can be some tense gameplay and anxiety about getting back to fullness again. You know...just like getting hit by a zombie. If you have bandages set on your belt and/or some pills and water on hand then there is really no gameplay to speak of more than what you mentioned. Pop a pill and drink some water or use a bandage and there is no challenge. But....get caught without those preparations and now you are trying to finish a quest without getting hit even once again and that brings the challenge.

 

there is something profoundly different between a zombiehit and health and food. As I said taking hits will always be a threat and can always be counterplayed, early and lategame.

The punishment is having only 30 stamina, which does nothing except slow the game down. You can't run anymore, you cant get ressources anymore, and everything feels sluggish (the reason why death penalty in A17 was so hated) so even when we say you don't have the food to refill yourself, it is only a punishment that slows you down, but you do not feel that beeing rng'ed is a good reason for it.

 

3) Is there counterplay?

 

The vomit itself is like a huge hit from a zombie. You don't counterplay off of the hit itself you recover your health after the damage is applied and that is the counterplay. Sometimes it will be easy because you are well prepared. Sometimes it will be more challenging because you have to run back to your base for extra medical supplies and every vulture will be attracted to you on the way. Same with vomit. The vomit event happens and then your stamina and recovery stats take a big hit and the counterplay is recovering. If you have a bunch of canned food or more cooked meals right away then there is no challenge-- but if you don't then you're going to experience some challenging disruption to your current plans as you work to recover. Even though food poisoning seems closer in concept to being infected than it does to taking physical damage in practice it is nothing like infection. It is a single instant event like getting hit and not an ongoing effect like infection so you can't really accurately compare the counterplay of food poisoning to infection because they are unlike each other.

but you only eat in your base, because of it. Everyone who doesnt is... sorry... stupid. Don't eat while outside. Its not worth it, in no situation except if you already are starving.

And all you just said was "its challenging in the first few days, but only annoying after" which is exactly my point. The way I'd implement it would always give a counterplay and would still inflict a sense of dread if you can't get it checked.

 

4) Is it fun?

 

Shame on you. Of course it is fun for those who like it and unfun for those who don't. I personally love the uncertainty I feel when I eat now and when I successfully get my fullness back up to above my stamina max without vomiting I feel a pleasing relief. And when it does happen I will recover however I can and my plans will get disrupted which could lead to other mistakes which could cause the game to suddenly get very challenging.

 

yes yes fun is subjective. But there is a general concensus. Just because some ppl like bdsm doesnt mean its fun to get hit. It is generally considered as a bad thing. Same here. You might like the anxiety coming from rolling the dice, but RNG punishment is one of the worst ways to increase difficulty, since its never fair.

 

5) Is it a punishment?

 

Damn straight. Get used to it. Not every event in the game is designed to make you feel special. Sometimes you just get hammered and then the striving to recover is its own intrinsic reward if you are successful.

 

And this is where you are wrong. EVERYTHING in gamedevelopment is meant to bring fun in one way or another. And I mean everything. They differ in the exact same way, but just think about this example:

Dark Souls is generally considered a pretty hard game. But no matter how hard, it is always meant as an obstacle for the player to overcome and feel special.

Now if there were an rng chance that every second you could randomly die if you do not wear a specific armor or bought a specific item... would that feel good? Would you feel rewarded NOT dying randomly?

There are certain survival games that try to make the players life miserable. They spawn enemies you are not able to defeat yet, they punish you for random events, but this is because that is the main draw of the game (thinking of dont starve, since its the only game that I could think of that remotely ♥♥♥♥s with the player on a randomized basis).

BUT that is the whole point of the game. You always need to be on edge and will probably never be 100% prepared.

Every event has a narrative purpose and is meant to give you memorable moments.

 

And this is where this food poisoning fails. It is a nothing element. Sure punishing, but I won't remember when I was struggling for food and got food poisoning in the first week, because all it does is reduce the food even more.

What I will remember is how zombies broke in my base and I fought for my life. How I overcame the odds and stood tall. Not how I crawled on all four hoping to finally find some food so I could move around normally again.

 

I'm here all week and twice on Tuesdays.

 

Again. Not against punishing the player. Nothing against obstacles. But they need to be balanced, fair (easy=/= fair) and need to give a sort of accomplishment when overcome.

This foodpoisoning does give you a challenge on day 1-7, but even then you can just buy canned food... which misses the whole point.

 

 

What this system is MEANT to do (or at least how I think it is meant to be) is that you should have canned foods as a great alternative (25-40 food), but they are rare and give no benefits. Cooked food should always give benefits (+5 stamina for 30 min; +5 to loot in the next hour; whatever) and should give the same amount of stamina BUT have food poisoning. This you can either prevent by using vitamins/perks OR after you got it (either antibiotics or some other way that slows it down). Also it should be more integral to the gameplay.

All you basicially said was: "but there is a small bit of it..." but it could be so much more, instead of this half finished, annoying system that adds nothing.

 

I take it back... I might need a break after explaining something so obvious to someone who seems to just wants to go against me for the sake of going against me.

[Kalen]

Again. Not against punishing the player. Nothing against obstacles. But they need to be balanced, fair (easy=/= fair) and need to give a sort of accomplishment when overcome.

This foodpoisoning does give you a challenge on day 1-7, but even then you can just buy canned food... which misses the whole point.

 

 

What this system is MEANT to do (or at least how I think it is meant to be) is that you should have canned foods as a great alternative (25-40 food), but they are rare and give no benefits. Cooked food should always give benefits (+5 stamina for 30 min; +5 to loot in the next hour; whatever) and should give the same amount of stamina BUT have food poisoning. This you can either prevent by using vitamins/perks OR after you got it (either antibiotics or some other way that slows it down). Also it should be more integral to the gameplay.

All you basicially said was: "but there is a small bit of it..." but it could be so much more, instead of this half finished, annoying system that adds nothing.

 

I take it back... I might need a break after explaining something so obvious to someone who seems to just wants to go against me for the sake of going against me.

 

I believe its already been stated that food is not finished and cooked food will indeed provide additional benefits at some point. So you can rest easy.

[Dimpy]

@Viktoriuski It sounds like your problem is that food acquisition is so trivial for you that the inconvenience of having to eat more after food poisoning and being crippled is worse than the extra effort you have to spend getting that food.

[Ghostlight]

Cooking is simply a work in progress. The current state is not the intended final version. The plan is to create a multitude of recipes beyond what we already have that involve the use of the canned foods as at least one of the components in the recipe. Cooked dishes will have special buffs and benefits that last for a period of time when you eat them which will make the risk of food poisoning worth it in order to be able to use those foods.

 

Those buffs will have to mind-blowing or else this would be a major waste of time and effort. Wellness used to make recipes matter a lot. But like all the great things that used to be in the game, it was replaced by inferior mechanics. Food and recipes mean nothing now.

[Viktoriusiii]

@Viktoriuski It sounds like your problem is that food acquisition is so trivial for you that the inconvenience of having to eat more after food poisoning and being crippled is worse than the extra effort you have to spend getting that food.

 

that certainly is A problem, but that can be fixed by adjusting loot tables.

What I am talking about is an overarching problem with the way this foodpoisoning is designed.

You can't fix that with tweaks to numbers.

Sure you can tweak the numbers so its not AS annoying and not AS pointless.

But in the end it will still be "eat so that you can eat more and waste your ressources", instead of a well thoughtout system that integrates well into the games mechanics.

[Alphado-Jaki]

I believe its already been stated that food is not finished and cooked food will indeed provide additional benefits at some point. So you can rest easy.

 

Yeah, but they believe only benefit aspect is not finished.

 

See how Roland and Gazz defend current food poisoning, they seriously believing as food benefit (or spoiling) fix current complaints of food poisoning without any fix for itself.

[Roland]

I take it back... I might need a break after explaining something so obvious to someone who seems to just wants to go against me for the sake of going against me.

 

I'm not going against you for the sake of going against you. Your problem is that you see your opinion as so self-evident and so true that you cannot fathom someone else disagreeing with your premise so it must be a personal attack against you. A forum is meant to allow different viewpoints to be expressed so that readers can decide what they like but if you always post with this attitude that your viewpoint is the gospel truth and anyone who believes contrary is just out to get you then you will always be frustrated.

 

You often post that the devs don't listen to you but just dismiss you out of hand. What if they did listen to you and considered what you said and still disagreed? Sorry, Vik, but if you believe you have THE ANSWER then please create a mod or get one of the modders to listen to your ideas and see if they feel as passionate about it as you do.

 

I understand that the game doesn't play exactly the way you want it to and you see that as poor design instead of your personal preferences not being met.

[Roland]

Yeah, but they believe only benefit aspect is not finished.

 

See how Roland and Gazz defend current food poisoning, they seriously believing as food benefit (or spoiling) fix current complaints of food poisoning without any fix for itself.

 

Canned food will have zero risks but just give minimal health and stamina recovery.

 

Cooked foods will have minimal risks but give significant health and stamina recovery and beneficial timed buffs as well.

 

If the buffs are good enough then we'll have more people risking it. We already have people risking it because they see the benefits of the signficant health and stamina recovery. Some people will never risk it because they can't overcome the anxiety of the random chance. For them there will always be vending machines.

[Dimpy]

But in the end it will still be "eat so that you can eat more and waste your ressources", instead of a well thoughtout system that integrates well into the games mechanics.

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with negative feedback loops. In this case it's useful because it puts a price on filling your food bar past what is needed and allows crappy food to keep away starvation without being OP

[ZombieSurvivor]

1)

It can situationally. For example, in the early days when you don't have backup food and then you are suddenly thrust into panic mode and the plans you had get supplanted by the immediate survival goal of not starving.

 

lol this just happened to me an hour ago when I last played. I had to put everything on hold and spend most of the day hunting and picking crops from POIs.

[Ghostlight]

That's the problem though. In the first week, when food poisoning might actually matter, you can easily loot enough canned goods to not have any risk of it. Later in the game the effect of food poisoning is so irrelevant that you eat what you like and never worry. I find it a pointless mechanic.

[ZombieSurvivor]

That's the problem though. In the first week, when food poisoning might actually matter, you can easily loot enough canned goods to not have any risk of it. Later in the game the effect of food poisoning is so irrelevant that you eat what you like and never worry. I find it a pointless mechanic.

 

I hear this a lot "you can survive off cans early on", problem is... I've done 3 playthroughs to level 45 or so in the past month. newest one started a day or two ago..still level 11 or 12. I've yet to come across this mythical tale of all the canned food a survivor could need. Maybe I just burn more calories than most and so I run out of food a lot, I dunno..... *shrugs*

[Synvastian]

its based on the fact that vending machine exist, they spend a good amount of time huddling against vending machines for warmth and sustenance (partly a joke, partly not)

[ZombieSurvivor]

its based on the fact that vending machine exist, they spend a good amount of time huddling against vending machines for warmth and sustenance (partly a joke, partly not)

 

Seems like such a waste of dukes to spend anything on a vending machine. *mental note next time spend dukes on vending machine when starving* I always forget those exist lol...

[Viktoriusiii]

I hear this a lot "you can survive off cans early on", problem is... I've done 3 playthroughs to level 45 or so in the past month. newest one started a day or two ago..still level 11 or 12. I've yet to come across this mythical tale of all the canned food a survivor could need. Maybe I just burn more calories than most and so I run out of food a lot, I dunno..... *shrugs*

 

traders (and vending machines around the world) have enough.

If they rebalance vending machines, there is still a lot of shamway factories

If thats not doing it, there is airdrops, burried supply quests, most houses have a kitchen and you you are super desperate, there are always smaller foodshops scattered around the world.

 

But having enough cans really isn't the problem. Its that they only give 15 food. Which means at higher levels, you need 10 cans a day just to run around.

As I said:

cans should give you safe stamina, cooked food should be a bit harder to come by, but give nice buffs (like red tea or mineral water) but have a small chance to poison.

Any other way makes cans impractical after lvl 20-30 and cooked food is annoying, but not much more.

 

 

@Roland:

sure. I've never ever said that I was wrong ever. I am simply too stubborn to accept that others have opinions.

Lets go with that. Seemed to have worked for A17, must work here as well.

 

just because a minority likes it, does not make it good design. Just because I like it, doesn't make it good design. I like the looter shooter A18 is. It still lost most of its charm of a survival horror game. Therefor if they didn't intend to make it a looter shooter, it was bad design, even tho I like it.

If you would give me a valid reason why we should keep such a simplistic system in favour of a much more interesting one, when it would not need much changes, please go ahead.

 

[Ghostlight]

I hear this a lot "you can survive off cans early on", problem is... I've done 3 playthroughs to level 45 or so in the past month. newest one started a day or two ago..still level 11 or 12. I've yet to come across this mythical tale of all the canned food a survivor could need. Maybe I just burn more calories than most and so I run out of food a lot, I dunno..... *shrugs*

 

Tips: Focus on looting POIs that you know will have kitchens, and also do early nearby Buried Supplies quests from your first trader - they very often reward you with a large cache of tinned food.

[Alphado-Jaki]

Canned food will have zero risks but just give minimal health and stamina recovery.

 

Cooked foods will have minimal risks but give significant health and stamina recovery and beneficial timed buffs as well.

 

If minimal risk means less than now, or food poisoning get something not ruins everything, I'd accept. But at this rate, food is big thumbs down in gorgeous A18.

 

If the buffs are good enough then we'll have more people risking it. We already have people risking it because they see the benefits of the signficant health and stamina recovery. Some people will never risk it because they can't overcome the anxiety of the random chance. For them there will always be vending machines.

 

I don't feel anxiety, I had eaten many cooked food until I experienced meh moment, "Oh 4% is not small number, it's not worth eating even in max tier!"

 

My puking 4 times per weeks experience even with stew or bacon does refrain from eating cooked food.

 

Surprised? 90% of the people on this forum will have no idea about Markov's, so it would be pointless to examine in a discussion. Although, I had to refresh myself on it (thanks for making me ), and I still can't see how it would actually do much good here.. sure, bounds are useful, but in this case the reality is rather obviously limiting, and the useful bounds are found at the ends of the max sta bar (fed to full vs poisoned down to 25 (or so)) and outcomes (got +10 or -125 out of that steak).

 

That's essentially what the thread has been about, although in layman terms. I did mention that the expected value of a corn bread is negative once you have a pretty full stomach, but yeah.. going mathematical would require an audience that should understand it...

 

Feel free to do so though, I'd at least read a decent analysis of the current mechanic, possibly even understand ...

 

Yep, I will.

[Jugginator]

Not worth eating? Dude it gives massive HP back and most of them give buffs. Not great but still better than eating 200 cans of food. Takes you 4 times longer to gather all of them and eat them than it does to eat the good food lol. 4% is not a large number, it's a miniscule one. Hell my last run I got poisoning ONCE in 38 days. Just because you get unlucky one time doesn't mean it's always going to be like that...

 

Even if you get poisoning, it takes you 2x longer to fill up and heal off of canned foods than it takes eating another cooked food...

[Alphado-Jaki]

Sadly it's always. My 42 days play time was puking almost 20 times. Early days, I didn't eat charred meat or boiled egg to store meat/egf till day 10: I can make high tier food constantly.

 

I ate only bacon and egg or stew salmon taco, chilli dog from day10 to 42, result is I decided to sell any cooked foods to buy canned food.

[Jugginator]

Sounds like you need to use vitamins and red tea.

[Alphado-Jaki]

I use both and also pure mineral water.

Vitamin helps a bit, but not constantly available.

[Jugginator]

If you use red tea/pure water, you only need to eat once a day, at night or morning no matter what you're doing. Unless youi're only eating canned food lol. The buff duration stacks with tea/pure water, pop one vitamin at night if you're so worried/ get so pissed off about food poisoning and eat 1 or 2 cooked foods and be good for the next day. I never eat canned food after the first few days, unless it's random canned food I find out in the open looting and I feel like scrapping the can after. It's not as dramatic as you're making it out to be lol.

 

I still say some sort of food spoilage would be better, or just cause both canned and cooked food to have a chance at poisoning, and/or foods to have a chance at causing a timed sickness debuff, though.

[Alphado-Jaki]

If you use red tea/pure water, you only need to eat once a day, at night or morning no matter what you're doing.

 

Yeah, I know that. Even with them I puke many and many.

 

Unless youi're only eating canned food lol. The buff duration stacks with tea/pure water, pop one vitamin at night if you're so worried/ get so pissed off about food poisoning and eat 1 or 2 cooked foods and be good for the next day.

 

No, I'm not worried, but I'm disgusted with getting that.

Again, this is neither thought nor estimation. This is my EXPERIENCE.

[tricorius]

Definitely this. There are no fair reason to pay risk to get food poisoning.

We need to pay cost for NO rewarding, because there is punishment for ignoring dev's intended way of playing.

 

Here's a perspective for those that want a bit of "realism".

 

My wife has Crohn's disease. I have Celiac disease (both severe GI issues).

 

Celiac disease essentially (depending on severity) presents as significant, severe food poisoning whenever you eat a certain type of "gluten" (primarily from the wheat plant, but lesser from others).

 

Regardless... my wife and I have discussed that we'd be among the first to die in an "actual" zombie apocalypse.

 

If I get a Celiac flare, it is essentially disabling. I won't get gross, but let's suffice it to say I have literally spent hours in a bathtub, weakly draining / refilling the water while doing things similar to what you get when you eat a sham sandwich or drink murky water.

 

The noise you would make would attract all the zombies and you *literally* don't have the strength to sit up, much less stand.

 

The first time this happened was when I was in middle school. My parents nearly called 911, expecting an ambulance ride and a stay in ICU. (My mother thought I was dying and made my dad pick the bathroom lock so she could get in. LOL .. Yeah it wasn't funny at the time, but I laugh now.)

 

You *don't* want "realistic" food poisoning in this game (or any other).

 

 

P.S. Crohns is *worse* overall than Celiac. When it is uncontrolled you're essentially bleeding internally a large portion of the time. Yup, good times.

 

P.P.S. I have also once had severe seafood poisoning; and it manifested exactly as my Celiac bouts do (in fact I originally thought it was Celiac until I heard from friends who ate the same dish I did; we all got it).

 

I don't know about anyone else; but I don't want "realistic" food poisoning in my game. I'm fine with the mental switch case I need to quickly traverse before eating. And I'm not 100% sure if I'd rather have a "spoilage" mechanic instead.