RyanX Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Have to +1 this whole post. Hit detection is just real bad in so many ways right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnuff Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Swinging at a zombie and accidentally harvesting the grass on the floor behind it is annoying, but that was in A17 too. A18 made it better, but it's still not great. The club's swing really needs to hit everything in an arc, rather than just hitting where the crosshair is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Zombie laying on the ground stunned. Crosshairs dead between the eyes...swing and a miss! Hit the concrete under his head. Don't remind me, it makes me rage so bloody hard when that happens, hits the block behind the zombie, but misses the zombie entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollowprime Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 It is very bad indeed. It's as if someone forgot to play with melee weapons at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisisforsupercorn Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 It took some getting used to for sure. I first played a16 I think, and re-joining in a18 I was like wow, this hit, partial hit thing is really bad. I'm playing on a server so I'm sure there is some lag added to the equation, but I primarily used Sledgehammer, witha pistol as an emergency weapon. Even now I can still miss several times as theyre sprinting in my face, but to compensate for that, I'll occasionally aim for chest so that I know it will connect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard puke Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=412007318 L4D2 has always had some melee issues but overall I think the system was pretty excellent and would be much less prone to that whole thing where you use half your stamina bar to power attack a downed enemy with a sledgehammer and whiff and get 2 plant fibers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickPuppy Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Zombie laying on the ground stunned. Crosshairs dead between the eyes...swing and a miss! Hit the concrete under his head. Yikes, that's not good. It is pretty infuriating when it should be a clear hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beHypE Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Agreed, the most obvious bug in hit detection is when you hit that zombie lying on the floor right in the head but you smack the ground. Same issue is pretty glaring when you mine. It happens all the time that you actually mine the block behind the one you aim at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Agreed, the most obvious bug in hit detection is when you hit that zombie lying on the floor right in the head but you smack the ground. Same issue is pretty glaring when you mine. It happens all the time that you actually mine the block behind the one you aim at. I've had this happen a few times. usually when trying to aim at gravel when its the last block of gravel between 2 blocks of ore, it'll often just start mining the ore than hitting the gravel. I don't mind that one so much, as at least it won't get me killed unlike melee hits missing entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlgrey Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 or just upgrading (or repairing) wood spikes to iron, depending on the angle you will upgrade the block behind or below very likely. i think there are several issues, hitboxes in general and wonky hit detection when zombies are doing weird animations especially when they move faster and come very close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlgrey Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 did a quick video of a random situation which i encounter quite often: what do you think, do i just suck or should at least one of these 3 swings have hit the zed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollowprime Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 did a quick video of a random situation which i encounter quite often: what do you think, do i just suck or should at least one of these 3 swings have hit the zed? Yeah that's my experience with melee weapons in A18 alright. You should show this to the devs. Can you post a video with the melee arc animation on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFlu Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 did a quick video of a random situation which i encounter quite often: what do you think, do i just suck or should at least one of these 3 swings have hit the zed? You manage to twitch at every blow, making those "possible" legit misses. Always just at around the blow landing, the crosshair does spend a frame or two outside of the zed. So that's a "maybe" at best - if taking the actual implementation into account. From an animation point of view, sure, those should have landed, but from the "one-instant-moment-at-the-crosshairs-decides-the-hit" implementation, that's pretty impossible to judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlgrey Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Yeah that's my experience with melee weapons in A18 alright. You should show this to the devs. Can you post a video with the melee arc animation on? aww, not worth it. as theFlu pointed out, i just need more practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlgrey Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 i started now my meele training, ferals are waaaay to twitchy for me, so i stick to static targets for now. but still hard times hitting these darn spikes, they are so nimble.. i guess i should aim for the body because the head is so hard to hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weyrling Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 The raycasts have insufficient resolution to properly resolve against zombie animations, they just need to increase the number of intermediate raycasts a little to fix that. Frankly I'd prefer if there wasn't a 'direct hit' system for entity attacks at all, and it was just 'first entity hit by swing raycasts'. Also I'd make the damage start lower and peak towards the 'middle' raycast before getting weaker again, which would make it an actual glancing blow system. Then you could give certain weapons a 'follow through', like sledgehammers could do half or a quarter damage to the second guy in line, then a quarter or an eighth to the third guy, etc. Could even throw follow-through into a perk so you have to spec into group combat. IMO this would make the entire melee system feel a lot better while still rewarding people with excellent aim, where being a little bit off doesn't punish you too hard. Currently being a little off is a huge drop in damage which makes the glancing blow system have little impact on the result of a fight outside of desperate situations. The block harvesting system functions based on the cursor raycast but that doesn't actually need to be changed, they'd just need to run the entity collision for the first half of the arc and then block-collision from that one raycast, and if any of them hit anything then abort the arc if there's no follow-through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debaser71 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 shoot enough rockets and you'll see them pass right through the ground...fire them into the crest of a hill and you can see them explode on the inside of the other side of the terrain. Melee, arrows, bullets, rockets...it happens with everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFlu Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 i started now my meele training, ferals are waaaay to twitchy for me, so i stick to static targets for now. but still hard times hitting these darn spikes, they are so nimble.. i guess i should aim for the body because the head is so hard to hit. Lol, yeah, you clearly need some practise, can't even hit a spike .. Some of the block hitboxes are just ... sigh. Fences are an all-time favourite, some patches you couldn't hit them from one side at all. Made for nice walls thou, zeds couldn't hit them either. At the moment, tables seem more hit than miss, trying to hit something between table legs lands on the table, maybe train on them first? And no, not the desks, those things only exist on the left side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickPuppy Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 did a quick video of a random situation which i encounter quite often: what do you think, do i just suck or should at least one of these 3 swings have hit the zed? I'd say your cross was off the head for first two, last one felt like it should've smacked the chin. Tbh even if those swings missed the head it should've hit the body and swaggered with big sledge. That's the only problem I with it atm. I'm guessing it's by design to make it more challenging? A powerful weapon hitting everytime might make it too easy and with practice I seem to be getting regular head hits. Thx for the upload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlgrey Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 I'd say your cross was off the head for first two, last one felt like it should've smacked the chin. Tbh even if those swings missed the head it should've hit the body and swaggered with big sledge. That's the only problem I with it atm. I'm guessing it's by design to make it more challenging? A powerful weapon hitting everytime might make it too easy and with practice I seem to be getting regular head hits. Thx for the upload i don't really think its a crosshair-on-target issue, if you take a look at the swing arc and range which these weapons have, its way wider and wider spread then just around the crosshair. showswings command i think the damage is applied time wise at the very end of the swing at a specific time, not along with the swing depending on where the weapon is currently. e.g your swing takes 0,6s it starts at the right \|/ and goes to the left.. the damage is applied not while its doing this movement, but at once when its on the far left at the end of the swing. this means if you hit the zombie visually in this position / the damage will only be applied if he is still in / position if you reach \ 0,6s later where the damage is applied. just a thought based on some observations.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFlu Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 i don't really think its a crosshair-on-target issue, if you take a look at the swing arc and range which these weapons have, its way wider and wider spread then just around the crosshair. showswings command i think the damage is applied time wise at the very end of the swing at a specific time, not along with the swing depending on where the weapon is currently. e.g your swing takes 0,6s it starts at the right \|/ and goes to the left.. the damage is applied not while its doing this movement, but at once when its on the far left at the end of the swing. this means if you hit the zombie visually in this position / the damage will only be applied if he is still in / position if you reach \ 0,6s later where the damage is applied. just a thought based on some observations.. I've been messing about with the showswings functionality a bit.. it seems quite inaccurate comparing to the results, especially with ANY movement. Try starting a swing on one side of a zombie and ending on the other.. plenty of rays going thru, no glance. How is it so inaccurate? I'd have to guess it's more of a guesstimate drawn separately from the actual hit detection system, but that wouldn't make any sense debug-wise... it wouldn't convey the info a tester wants, just something resembling it. It seems there's now two distinct melee attacks in one blow. Against a single zombie, if you get a glancing blow, the showswings ray that hit shows green. If you get a crosshair-hit, none of the rays go green => I would guess the normal hit isn't an "arc hit" at all, but the old separate mechanic, which also overrides the glancing for the target zombie. If so, the showswings would essentially only display the glancing mechanic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickPuppy Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 i don't really think its a crosshair-on-target issue, if you take a look at the swing arc and range which these weapons have, its way wider and wider spread then just around the crosshair. showswings command i think the damage is applied time wise at the very end of the swing at a specific time, not along with the swing depending on where the weapon is currently. e.g your swing takes 0,6s it starts at the right \|/ and goes to the left.. the damage is applied not while its doing this movement, but at once when its on the far left at the end of the swing. this means if you hit the zombie visually in this position / the damage will only be applied if he is still in / position if you reach \ 0,6s later where the damage is applied. just a thought based on some observations.. I gave the arc theory a go but I can't feel the hit coming at the end of the swing. If my cross is right on the head I'm getting quite consistent headshots right where my cross is aiming in the middle of the swing. I'm also not getting the misses on motionless zombies, aim for head and hit the head. But if I'm 2 blocks high and aiming down, they're sliding around that's an easy miss and I break block below. Tested on sledge, haven't played much with clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlgrey Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 I gave the arc theory a go but I can't feel the hit coming at the end of the swing. If my cross is right on the head I'm getting quite consistent headshots right where my cross is aiming in the middle of the swing. I'm also not getting the misses on motionless zombies, aim for head and hit the head. But if I'm 2 blocks high and aiming down, they're sliding around that's an easy miss and I break block below. Tested on sledge, haven't played much with clubs. quick check of the "crosshair has to be on target"-theory: crosshair definitively not on target, 1 glancing blow (that's fine) and 1 proper hit: crosshair definitively not on target, head popped off. well, whatever this is, this inconsistency feels terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFlu Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 What makes you say that the first vid has a proper hit and not two glancing blows? Glancing blows can trigger effects like dismemberment and stun as well. That can explain both videos, and you don't have a damage display to check the damage done (seems to be around 10% of a normal hit for glances, with a sledge that's something like 10 hp - not the most common fatal blow, but well suited for it) I find myself replying in disagreement with a lot of your posts - don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to annoy you, I'm curious and what you're saying goes against my own experiments so I'd like to figure out where we differ. We can at least agree that the melee has of plenty of wonky going on .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaderdog Posted November 14, 2019 Author Share Posted November 14, 2019 Clearly this mechanic is still in it's infancy, however, I think I'm mostly against it all together. I wanted a swing arc and a connection in it to be counted as a hit. It's a blunt weapon we're swinging. If you miss... then seriously why'd you swing? A full sized human body in front of you isn't something you would typically miss. It's almost impossible in fact. (unless your hand eye coordination is so bad or you have severe depth perception issues) They're trying to add something more to melee, because some people complained it was too boring, this is the wrong way of going about it. A RNG swing isn't needed in a game like this, if I want rng I'll go play darkest dungeon and get frustrated. And as I said in a17 abysmal melee release, walk slowly towards your friend with a club or a sledge and let them swing at you. See if: a) they miss! b) the damage is reduced as the weapon hits you at any place. The swing and hit detection shouldn't be a question in a game where your life is on the line. And when it comes to a blunt weapon the odds of missing are slim to none. There are better ways you add difficulty/fun/complication to melee than creating a random chance to hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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