Niil945 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 The problem is that then you form an opinion about the general state of the game and when people argue against that opinion you take that as an attack against your right to share your opinion. Except that's not what happens. It's not a situation where people are debating their opinions. If that's all it was I wouldn't have even engaged here (or in the other thread). It's people expressing their opinion and people dismissing them by using fallacies instead of actually substantively engaging them. The other thread you and I engaged each other was you and others mischaracterizing someone's position. I read the post, understood exactly what he was talking about and what the person found frustrating about the system even though I haven't played pre A18, and then proceeded to read numerous posts where people tried to spin it as "oh you just want a guarantee of x loot by y day!" And when I pointed out that people were not accurately understanding/representing his point you went back and forth with me trying to convince me that somehow the person meant what you said they meant and not what they actually wrote. And when he returned to the thread and started clarifying his position I was right. He explicitly made the point that he was against 'casino loot' and that he didn't want a guaranteed loot by a set game day he just wanted to be able to work towards something and not have progression entirely luck based. It's not significantly different than here aside from the discussion being semantics versus strawman. Even when the person openly acknowledges that crafted versus looting isn't balanced instead of actually engaging on that substantive point about why the system might be the way it is, what they like or dislike about it, or ideas to address their issues with the system people are arguing semantics about the phrase looter shooter. It's silly. Instead of trying to change the conversation away from your arguments to whether people's opinions are being invalidated or not just stick to your argument and continue the conversation. Trust me. Your opinion is safe and secure here in the forum. Nothing you've posted goes against any rule so it will remain for all to read and either be convinced by it or not depending on what else they read. If that's your take of my post you've fundamentally misunderstood the point. I'm not worried about any of that at all. My initial response to Bob was in jest. The point wasn't "we're being oppressed, omgz pitchforks!" it was a slightly snarky way of commiserating with him and saying "here we go again" after he made the point: Suppose I'll stop giving feedback, then. What's the point if I'm just going to get dogpiled for it and nobody cares about it anyway? Back to lurking for me. In every case I've joined into conversations like this it's because people are making fallacious arguments and I'm trying to empathize with the person getting dismissed, exactly like he was. He was right too. "just mod it, it only takes 2 mins but people would rather complain" isn't actually engaging people. It's handwaving them away and, as Bob pointed out, it's not an honest appraisal of the situation as not everyone is comfortable or knowledgeable enough to go digging around in XML. Personally, I'm not even hating on the devs for implementing this system. I've heard from you (and others) that it was trivial crafting wise before to end up with the best gear quickly and I don't think that's a great outcome either plus we know there are more changes coming. And I'm sure if when we get there the devs don't like the outcome they'll continue iterating until they do. But that doesn't invalidate how people feel about how things are now in A18. But they don't. What they actually say is that 7 Days to Die can no longer label itself as a crafting survival game because all it is is a looter shooter or something to that effect and they proceed to demand the devs go back to the way things were. Care to point out where Bob or the OP of this thread said either of those things? Because I'm not seeing it. I mean, I'm sure someone, somewhere made those arguments but you'll need to address that with them. I'm not sure what bearing that has here. 1) The devs will not go back to the way things were: T3 gear will have a component of their recipe that cannot be crafted and the highest quality of gear soon to be know as legendary will never be able to be crafted. 2) The game is still firmly a combination of crafting, looting, trading, surviving, building, shooting, sneaking, defending, and assaulting. 3) Within the new system there are things that can be done to strengthen crafting without weakening looting. 1) I mean, we have people here in this thread talking about how schematics were in game, were removed, and then came back because the devs didn't like how the intermediate system worked out. That said, I'd be happy to read over any post the devs made about what the final loot system is intended to be like. 2) Cool, I guess? 3) Hell, I don't even care if progression is loot based as long as it's not entirely luck based. I would much prefer to, as an example, be able to work towards completing the ranger book set on an archer build and actually be able to make progress on it aside from praying that what I want to work on shows up on the trader or spamming tier 5 missions and hitting bookshelves. Or I want to get a crucible without having to use a book to reset points, dump them in int, make a crucible, buy another book and swap back all so I can start crafting steel simply because luck hasn't graced me with one, the schematic, or one doesn't show up on a trader. But that's me. Still, when people like a system and that system changes, even if it's for good reason, it's unrealistic to expect them to not complain/vent/provide critical feedback about it. They are-- and good suggestions posted in the A18 feedback and balancing thread that do not demand a reversal or accuse the devs of bait and switching the game from crafting to looting but simply state ideas for how to restore balance between crafting and looting within the current system are going to give them great factors to consider. Again, I'm not seeing either of those things in the OP or in Bob's posts so I have no idea what you're talking about. I'd love to see a dev write up a short post philosophically waxing about what the long term goal is with the crafting/looting system is. It's obviously a point of contention as we see repeated posts on the forums talking about issues with crafting from people who have played much longer than I have. Clearly the devs have a goal in mind they're working towards and they talk to some folks about it as I've heard bits and pieces from different sources but there's not really any centralized, compiled public source that I've been able to find. If they have done this somewhere and I've just missed it please by all means point me at it. Having something like that might provide some insight and ease the frustrations/concerns of people like the OP who have little context to the changes. I've looked over the A18 dev diary (and the A19 one too) and while that talks about features it doesn't really dig into the how and why of things or where things are going eventually, they seem more like changelogs than anything. When I saw the Dev Diary posts I was expecting something along the lines of this: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-142-sectors.1163477/ That's a game that made some drastic changes that I absolutely did not like but they are so good at explaining what their intent is and why they're making changes so that I understand why they made them even if I wasn't exactly fond of the outcome. Then again I don't know how big TFP are and whether they have the staff to handle communication on that scale or someone who is good at that kind of consistent communication. I know this started out as a kickstarter and it's been in development for more than a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardianangelmp Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Sure.....but what game are we talking about? 7 Days to Die is most definitely still firmly on the side of crafting survival game. Everything you need to survive is craftable and obtainable through non-random means (AKA mining/harvesting). Every Tier 1 and Tier 2 weapon and tool can be crafted without need for looting. All building blocks and basic recipes for dozens of things like clothing, vehicles, traps, first aid, food, etc is all craftable from materials you wholly can harvest or mine without chance messing you up and the recipes for these things if not unlocked from the beginning can be unlocked by spending skillpoints so again not determined by looting chance. So what is dependent upon looting? Tier 3 Weapons and Tools that have parts that can only be found and not crafted. Tier 6 Quality Gear that cannot be crafted and can only be found. There are a few special items that can only be crafted if you find their book When you line it up you can see that the lion's share of the game is still crafting survival. Yes, I know you want EVERYTHING to be craftable without luck getting in the way but calling this game a "looter shooter" and claiming the devs have pulled a fast one on the customers by pretending they wanted an RPG is just an over-reaction to the changes they've made. AND....they are aware of the fact that you often find stuff before having the opportunity or need to craft it and they have plans to fix it. But: T1 - T2 Craftable..................................T3 Loot dependent Craftable Q1 - Q5 Craftable.................................Q6 Loot only 100's of other items and........................Some special items unlocked by books only blocks in the game craftable This is not the picture of abandoning crafting survival for looter shooter. Sorry. Where in my post did I reference 7days or crafting at all. The example you quoted was exactly that, a hypothetical example. If you want to bring 7days crafting into the conversation please don't use my example as an excuse. Sorry if you confused my intention of the post, but I promise that there was no subtext to it. And WOW, you started a ♥♥♥♥ storm derailing the thread into crafting vs looting, bravo. P.S. the post above this one hits the nail on the head. Organize your communication, consolidate all the dev communication in one place, and actually communicate with the fans about the hopes and plans for the future of the game, immediate and far. If you need examples just check out star citizen or Warframe. There's my constructive suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Where in my post did I reference 7days or crafting at all. The example you quoted was exactly that, a hypothetical example. Hah...you may not have explicitly referenced 7 Days but it was crystal clear looking at the post you quoted and how you answered that you were discussing this game: 7 Days to Die. To now claim that you weren't talking about 7 Days to Die but was just talking in generalities especially when your example references a game that calls itself a RPG Survival but has turned into a Looter Shooter is really disingenuous. There have been many posts and a few threads about that very thing in reference to 7 Days to Die. But now you pretend to not be talking about 7 Days to Die when we have the overall context of this thread and the forum and the current hot topics to go on? Let's see if Mr Forum Whisperer calls YOU out for misrepresenting yourself in your post...lol If you want to bring 7days crafting into the conversation please don't use my example as an excuse. I admit that I was mistaken in reference to crafting specifically. You said "RPG Survival" and not "Crafting Survival" and I probably had other posts on my mind when I answered you. But....everything I said also applies to RPG Survival. The game is still very much an RPG Survival game and in fact is taking on more and more elements of RPGs which actually bothers some who don't want it to be so much an RPG than an open world sandbox. Sorry if you confused my intention of the post, but I promise that there was no subtext to it. Okay. If you say so. You stating now that you weren't actually talking about 7 Days to Die makes it harder to believe since you obviously were but I do see you were intending to discuss communication and not specific claims that the game has made or that they have changed those claims. And WOW, you started a ♥♥♥♥ storm derailing the thread into crafting vs looting, bravo. Not really, I read back and only a few posts really responded to crafting vs looting. Most have been on communication and people telling other people what other people meant in their posts. Organize your communication, consolidate all the dev communication in one place, and actually communicate with the fans about the hopes and plans for the future of the game, immediate and far. If you need examples just check out star citizen or Warframe. There's my constructive suggestion. Good feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 The other thread you and I engaged each other was you and others mischaracterizing someone's position. I read the post, understood exactly what he was talking about and what the person found frustrating about the system even though I haven't played pre A18, and then proceeded to read numerous posts where people tried to spin it as "oh you just want a guarantee of x loot by y day!" And when I pointed out that people were not accurately understanding/representing his point you went back and forth with me trying to convince me that somehow the person meant what you said they meant and not what they actually wrote. And when he returned to the thread and started clarifying his position I was right. He explicitly made the point that he was against 'casino loot' and that he didn't want a guaranteed loot by a set game day he just wanted to be able to work towards something and not have progression entirely luck based. Meh...I still disagree with you in that other example. You were cheerleading him so of course he is going to come back and say you got it right. I've been conversing with pApA for years now. Even when the person openly acknowledges that crafted versus looting isn't balanced instead of actually engaging on that substantive point about why the system might be the way it is, what they like or dislike about it, or ideas to address their issues with the system people are arguing semantics about the phrase looter shooter. It's silly. Which is why I called for discussion about how to improve things within the current system. In every case I've joined into conversations like this it's because people are making fallacious arguments and I'm trying to empathize with the person getting dismissed... You can be the Watcher of Dismissiveness for the forum. Thank you. 2) Cool, I guess? Wow...I feel dismissed. Only "Cool Story Bro" could have been more dismissive. Who will watch the watcher....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Meh...I still disagree with you in that other example. You were cheerleading him so of course he is going to come back and say you got it right. I've been conversing with pApA for years now. So you won't accept his first post which never, ever said "I want x items by y day" even though you tried to claim that's what he wanted, and you won't accept other people reading his post and saying "that's not what he said", and you won't accept his clarification where he explicitly denies your strawman of his position as what he wanted. Why even bother having discussions since you're going to leap to whatever conclusion you want to about what someone means regardless of what they write. It's a little mind boggling. Which is why I called for discussion about how to improve things within the current system. Except that doesn't match reality, exactly as indicated by these two dialogues we've engaged in. You can be the Watcher of Dismissiveness for the forum. Thank you. That's creative. Does the snark make you feel better about being wrong? Empathizing with people just means I'm trying be intellectually honest when assessing their opinion regardless of whether I agree with them while trying to understand the situation from their perspective respectfully. I've already stated I agree with the basic idea that papa put forth about player agency but I feel like we're in the middle of some changes that aren't complete and thus we're not seeing the whole picture. I even went into detail about what I read in the dev diaries when I found them versus what I was expecting and asked you, numerous times now, if the devs have explained their long term goal/philosophy about loot somewhere. You've made no attempt to engage me or answer those questions at all. So much for you wanting to have productive, meaningful discussions, eh? Wow...I feel dismissed. Only "Cool Story Bro" could have been more dismissive. Who will watch the watcher....? That was not dismissive. I didn't tell you you were wrong (like you've done to people), I didn't try to spin your words into something else and then argue against that spin (like you've done). You listed some words that don't really matter in context of this discussion and I don't have anything meaningful to say back to you about it. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want an example of dismissive read your response to Bob. I noticed you didn't respond at all to my question about what your diatribe regarding demands to roll back or calling 7d2d a crafting game. Hell, you made two distinct references to those things and I responded with basically this each time: Again, I'm not seeing either of those things in the OP or in Bob's posts so I have no idea what you're talking about. And you just ignored it. Just like anything constructive or substantial in the posts. You're just pissing into the wind here. In multiple threads you've come off like a guy with a chip on your shoulder coming down hard on people just expressing their opinion. Bob wasn't being rude or snarky. He didn't even say whether he agreed with the initial point or not. He just made the point that telling people to mod the game was not a substantive response to feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Again, I'm not seeing either of those things in the OP or in Bob's posts so I have no idea what you're talking about. Since you want to talk about my responses to Bob, here are the two places I responded to him. I really don't think either response is dismissive or grumpy at all. If you took it that way then maybe you started out feeling a bit aggressive towards me and biased towards my posts from the get go. As for responding to the OP, I couldn't find a single place where I responded directly to the OP but you're saying I'm misrepresenting him as well... I'd just like to pop in to say "If you don't like the product you bought you should fix it yourself" is an argument you'd accept from literally no other kind of company. I'll also point out that the 'two minutes' argument is only true if you're one, changing something very basic, two, already have all the tools, software, and knowledge to do it, and three, are willing to do it every single time the game updates and resets your changes. So it's certainly not something everyone's going to be willing or able to do. I'll pop in to say as well that most of the things people are saying need to be fixed are simply not broken. They just aren't what they prefer. If you hate spending points on perks and want it to just advance passively through actions then a mod that makes that happen is changing the game but it isn't fixing anything. If you can't play with dogs and feel they break the game that is your own personal preference. It doesn't mean the game is actually broken with dogs and by installing a mod that removes dogs you aren't fixing a product you bought. You're changing its nature to be more like you want it which literally is your responsibility and not the developers as they make the product. ********************** Analysis: Bob gives it as his opinion that saying "Mod it" is not a good response to people who want the game fixed. Roland adds the qualifier that not all things that people say need to be fixed are in fact broken. I think both parties were being respectful and earnest in their responses. *********************** If you're serious about expecting every person with complaints to mod the game to turn it into the game they want, then does that mean you don't consider any criticism valid since any problem can potentially be fixed by a determined enough modder or a version rollback? Because that's what I'm taking away from replies like these, and from similar statements made in multiple other threads. If no criticism is valid since 'modders can fix it' or 'it's just an alpha' then you're basically saying that giving feedback, requesting changes, and explaining why we like or don't like certain things is a waste of time. The devs won't (and indeed, shouldn't) listen to it, since modders can make everything better. Right? Suppose I'll stop giving feedback, then. What's the point if I'm just going to get dogpiled for it and nobody cares about it anyway? Back to lurking for me. Not at all. I'm not sure why you would take it that way. You should give feedback and make your preferences known. There are still a lot of balls up in the air and where they land can certainly be affected by consumer feedback. Literally the difference between A17.0 and many of the A17.x updates as well as A18 itself is largely due to the feedback they received and they acknowledged that in the very patchnotes themselves. But there comes a point when the devs say that Feature A is the way we want it and we aren't changing it. At that point, yammering on with negative complaints and rants isn't going to help. At that point the ONLY answer is "Mod it". So, for example, LBD: Mod it. Continued threads and posts about how much you wish we had it and trying to convince the devs to change back to it are pointless and pretty annoying at this point. It isn't going to happen. If you can mod it then do it. If you can't and it's a deal breaker than move on to your next game. Looting/Crafting Balance: Give feedback. This isn't done yet and making your voice known is important. **************************************** Analysis: Bob gets a bit pissed because he feels like people are saying that all feedback is worthless and what use is there for any feedback at all and he threatens to go back to lurking if this is the case. Roland assures Bob that this is not what he was saying and that there is definitely still room for feedback on a number of issues that are still developing. I think again that everything was fine. Bob got mad but he didn't lash out at anyone. Roland didn't say "Good riddance" but invited him to keep giving feedback. Bob even came back a few posts later with a back handed compliment saying he (for once) agreed with a post of Rolands. Result: Good conversation and relationships intact. Need for 3rd Party meddling: zip. If you want an example of dismissive read your response to Bob. I'm sorry but in neither of my responses above was I simply waving away his opinion. Like, at all. I could have just snipped his responses and said "Cool, I guess" but that would really strike me as dismissive if I'd done something like that. As for the OP, I guess you could say I was dismissive for never responding once to him but its probably because I didn't have any major disagreements with his post. <shrug> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobTheBard Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Hello! I've been keeping out of this one because I think I've already said my piece, but since I'm still involved in it I figured I should clear some stuff up. Firstly, I do think Roland has a tendency to appear dismissive or flippant in his replies to criticism. That said, I do not think this is intentional. I believe it's a result of differing contexts. He has a much better read on the developers' thoughts, beliefs, and opinions than the rest of us do. While he knows that a particular thing may not be broken and thus doesn't need to be fixed, or why a particular popular thing was changed or removed, or why a certain annoyance hasn't been fixed yet, many of us with complaints don't know or don't see that. So when he replies like he does he's thinking 'Well, that's not what the developers want/we tried that and it didn't work/it's not that big of a deal/just use a mod' some of the rest of us (like me!) who don't have that vital piece of context simply go 'What? How can you think this isn't worth talking about?' Second, the comment about getting dogpiled doesn't refer to Roland. It refers to certain other occasionally-zealous posters. And that particular comment wasn't even prompted by this thread so much as it was by a history of activity across multiple threads lasting about a week, so don't read too far into that one. I was frustrated at the time. Carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Thanks Bob for not taking offense at anything I said to you. I know we all love the game and have strong opinions. It’s why we’re here. I’ll try harder to come across as more caring. Maybe if my heart grows a few sizes this Christmas. Now we just need to see if Counsel is satisfied... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I couldn't find a single place where I responded directly to the OP but you're saying I'm misrepresenting him as well... At no point did I say you misrepresented the OP. I said you made the claim that people were demanding the game go back to previous iterations of systems or saying they needed to take 'crafting' out of the horde crafting survival descriptor. I made the point that neither the OP nor Bob made those points that you repeatedly mentioned. I said you misrepresented papa's post because, well, you did. He at no point said 'I want x loot by y game day' and yet you kept insisting that's what he said he wanted. Even after he comes in and explicitly stated that he did not want that, you still refuse to admit you mischaracterized his post. I could copy paste our interactions and say... Result: Roland got mad and Niil was completely respectful. But I'm sure you'd laugh at that as much as I laugh at yours. Seriously talking about yourself in the third person and trying to pretend you're giving an unbiased analysis is a more than mildly entertaining. Need for 3rd Party meddling: zip. So people aren't allowed to agree with each other if you disagree? They aren't allowed to support each other's opinions if you disagree? They aren't allowed to call out snarky behavior if you're the one doing it? I'm not sure what you expect when you're talking about public discussions on a forum. These weren't private conversations and in each instance where I engaged it was in response to your public argument. If you can't handle people pointing out your fallacious/dismissive arguments perhaps don't make them. Firstly, I do think Roland has a tendency to appear dismissive or flippant in his replies to criticism. That said, I do not think this is intentional. I believe it's a result of differing contexts. He has a much better read on the developers' thoughts, beliefs, and opinions than the rest of us do. While he knows that a particular thing may not be broken and thus doesn't need to be fixed, or why a particular popular thing was changed or removed, or why a certain annoyance hasn't been fixed yet, many of us with complaints don't know or don't see that. So when he replies like he does he's thinking 'Well, that's not what the developers want/we tried that and it didn't work/it's not that big of a deal/just use a mod' some of the rest of us (like me!) who don't have that vital piece of context simply go 'What? How can you think this isn't worth talking about?' It's possible that's the angle he's coming from. I've mentioned I thought it could easily be that some folks have been here for a very long time and they just don't have the patience for cyclical discussions about the same topics. Or it could just be that he's very opinionated and he is exactly as he appears, dismissive of critical feedback. In the end the outcome is the same whether intentional or not. Second, the comment about getting dogpiled doesn't refer to Roland. It refers to certain other occasionally-zealous posters. And that particular comment wasn't even prompted by this thread so much as it was by a history of activity across multiple threads lasting about a week, so don't read too far into that one. I was frustrated at the time. Carry on! Maybe my perspective has been skewed by the same. I've seen the several big threads critical of A18 and it's the same general feedback throughout. And in them I'm seeing, at least since I started participating on the forums, the same names be dismissive about people's feedback. That might not be an accurate assessment of the typical state on the forums but that's immediately what I thought of when you talked about being dogpiled (well that and the 3 posts you quoted when you wrote it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 At no point did I say you misrepresented the OP. I said you made the claim that people were demanding the game go back to previous iterations of systems or saying they needed to take 'crafting' out of the horde crafting survival descriptor. I made the point that neither the OP nor Bob made those points that you repeatedly mentioned. I did not make that claim in either of my responses to Bob so I must have been referring to someone else and not Bob. It could be I was also thinking about other posts and threads I had recently read. You keep bringing this back to Bob and he has said my posts were cool and it was other posts so maybe you are conflating my responses to Bob with what other people posted to him. Let's let Bob off the hook at this point. I showed my posts-- and to give it to you straight since you didn't like my humor: I was not dismissive of Bob. I said you misrepresented papa's post because, well, you did. He at no point said 'I want x loot by y game day' and yet you kept insisting that's what he said he wanted. Even after he comes in and explicitly stated that he did not want that, you still refuse to admit you mischaracterized his post. You keep bring up that other thread in this thread. I'm not going to debate you about another thread in this thread. I responded in that other thread directly to the person you say I maligned so we will see what comes of that. I went back and read that other conversation and I stand by what I posted when I summarized everything. You can disagree, that is your right but you would be w-word. I could copy paste our interactions and say... Result: Roland got mad and Niil was completely respectful. But I'm sure you'd laugh at that as much as I laugh at yours. Seriously talking about yourself in the third person and trying to pretend you're giving an unbiased analysis is a more than mildly entertaining. I mostly post for laughs. Glad you got some. You don't know me at all really. You're new and you think I'm being mean spirited and you have started your time in this community being aggressive with me right off the bat. Maybe you just want to show you don't care about people with authority or maybe you want to show that you don't care about long time posters or maybe you are a second account of someone who got banned in the past or maybe you are new and just don't like my online persona from the start. <shrug> I'm not mean spirited. I always let bygones be bygones in this forum and I never punish anyone for disagreeing with me using my forum tools. In fact, if someone does start getting too personal with me I turn over all moderation of that person to the other moderators of our team so there is no conflict of interest if/when that person gets banned. So relax a bit and read me as more glib and light hearted because that's what I am. If I was truly the way you seem to be painting me our interactions would be very different. So people aren't allowed to agree with each other if you disagree? They aren't allowed to support each other's opinions if you disagree? They aren't allowed to call out snarky behavior if you're the one doing it? I'm not sure what you expect when you're talking about public discussions on a forum. These weren't private conversations and in each instance where I engaged it was in response to your public argument. If you can't handle people pointing out your fallacious/dismissive arguments perhaps don't make them. I never said any of those things. I said there was no need for 3rd party meddling. Do you see how Bob and I directly communicated and he said that we were cool and he wasn't upset about what I posted and gave me some feedback about why my posts might come across as dismissive? That was us two working it out without really needing your input. Did I delete your unnecessary input from the forum? Nope. It is still there. Did I alter the forum rules to keep anyone from disagreeing with me? Nope. You can continue to interject into people's conversations and tell them how Person A misunderstood Person B. But it isn't really needed. Why not? Because Person A can post back to Person B and clarify their position to show Person B how they got it wrong. But keep doing it if you want Niil. It's your thing now. It's possible that's the angle he's coming from. I've mentioned I thought it could easily be that some folks have been here for a very long time and they just don't have the patience for cyclical discussions about the same topics. Or it could just be that he's very opinionated and he is exactly as he appears, dismissive of critical feedback. In the end the outcome is the same whether intentional or not. Should I just pretend I can't see you analyzing me....? lol Maybe my perspective has been skewed by the same. I've seen the several big threads critical of A18 and it's the same general feedback throughout. And in them I'm seeing, at least since I started participating on the forums, the same names be dismissive about people's feedback. That might not be an accurate assessment of the typical state on the forums but that's immediately what I thought of when you talked about being dogpiled (well that and the 3 posts you quoted when you wrote it). Yeah, maybe stick around and give people the benefit of the doubt and learn about who we are before jumping in as mister aggressive from the get go. Or not. I mean if you don't like me you don't like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 I did not make that claim in either of my responses to Bob so I must have been referring to someone else and not Bob. Correct. You did not state that to Bob. You said it to me while making vague statements about 'people'. I can quote you the relevant section of your post to me for like the third time where I explicitly responded by saying I have no idea what you're talking about and you glossed it over every time. I'm not going to debate you about another thread in this thread. I responded in that other thread directly to the person you say I maligned so we will see what comes of that. I went back and read that other conversation and I stand by what I posted when I summarized everything. The point you missed was it was about how you're speaking to people. You can disagree, that is your right but you would be w-word. Again, if a person says A and you try to spin it as B where B != A, then you try to argue why B is dumb/bad/wrong, you can repeat that you're right and everyone else is wrong until you're blue in the face. That's a strawman fallacy. No amount of saying you're right actually makes you right. I mostly post for laughs. Glad you got some. You don't know me at all really. You're new and you think I'm being mean spirited and you have started your time in this community being aggressive with me right off the bat. Project much? I started by saying I agree with people and empathize with them and you tried to be snarky about it. Empathizing with people is aggressive? Saying I agree with people is aggressive? I won't deny I have very little tolerance for unsound arguments or positions that don't differentiate between objective and subjective correctly and I aggressively point those things out. But that's not the same thing as being aggressive/snarky. Maybe you just want to show you don't care about people with authority or maybe you want to show that you don't care about long time posters In every single case where I've joined in discussions it's because I have an opinion about the topic and I've pointed out fallacious arguments. I'm not mean spirited. I always let bygones be bygones in this forum and I never punish anyone for disagreeing with me using my forum tools. In fact, if someone does start getting too personal with me I turn over all moderation of that person to the other moderators of our team so there is no conflict of interest if/when that person gets banned. So relax a bit and read me as more glib and light hearted because that's what I am. If I was truly the way you seem to be painting me our interactions would be very different. I've never, ever expressed that I was worried or bothered by the way you moderate. You keep bringing that type of stuff up as if it obviates you from making unsound arguments in general. It doesn't. In fact the one time I brought up that you were a moderator I explicitly stated that I didn't want to bias the way I thought about you because you were a moderator. I'm pretty sure if you were the power tripping type our conversations would have ended quickly heh. I never said any of those things. I said there was no need for 3rd party meddling. Meddling being defined as, what, exactly? Because what I've done thus far is respond to people's arguments that I agree with by supporting them, point out arguments that aren't logically sound, present my own opinions and thoughts, and I've asked questions. That was us two working it out without really needing your input. Ah there's that 'need' argument again. It was as valid previously as it is here. If you want a private conversation feel free to have a private discussion. You can continue to interject into people's conversations and tell them how Person A misunderstood Person B. In the other thread I pointed out that the arguments you and another person made about a position put forth by someone weren't accurate. I posited that you misunderstood the person because I'd rather assume it was unintentional rather than intentional. Here I posted in agreement with Bob. I did not express that you misunderstood him. But it isn't really needed. Why not? Because Person A can post back to Person B and clarify their position to show Person B how they got it wrong. But keep doing it if you want Niil. It's your thing now. Irrelevant argument. The forums don't 'need' to even exist. None of us 'need' to be here engaging each other. You didn't 'need' to respond to Bob. I don't 'need' to respond to you. Should I just pretend I can't see you analyzing me....? lol No by all means, if you want to engage me on that and maybe provide some context I'm missing or elaborate on the tone that's hard to get via text that I might be misreading, I'm more than open to changing my mind and my outlook about your posts. Yeah, maybe stick around and give people the benefit of the doubt and learn about who we are before jumping in as mister aggressive from the get go. Or not. I mean if you don't like me you don't like me. The latter point is highly possible. I don't know though yet to be honest. For the sake of ending the back and forth that's not really on topic, you clearly understand how I perceive your posts and we're long past talking circles about that, what are your thoughts on the broad strokes, the system level changes that seem to be pretty dramatic? I saw a video someone posted of an older alpha that had LBD and hub cities with lots more zombies (and bees or wasps or something). I know from previous commentary that you're of the mind that the best loot should be scarce. Are there any system changes that you're not a fan of? What are your thoughts about the balance between looting/crafting right now or do you like it as it is? What about the attribute changes tying them to specific weapons? Are you fatigued by any of the changes that have happened to the game like the OP? If you're not really in a position to comment I understand (I say that because when I've asked before you've not responded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 What are your thoughts on the broad strokes, the system level changes that seem to be pretty dramatic? TFP has always made broad strokes changes for the first iteration. Joel says that he likes to swing hard when making a change and then bring it back little by little to tune in on what feels best. It isn't surprising that he dramatically switched things away from crafting and now plans to slowly bring it back to somewhere between the current extreme and what we had in A17. I personally wish it was a bit faster process of bringing it back. I hope that he puts his plan for the loot nerf into play for an 18.3 rather than waiting until A19 but there is no rushing them when they are focused and easing back from his initial changes with the loot for A18 doesn't seem to be his current focus so we can probably expect to continue to find high level stuff before having a chance to craft it for awhile longer. I saw a video someone posted of an older alpha that had LBD and hub cities with lots more zombies (and bees or wasps or something). I have a mod with greatly increased zombie numbers and my rig which is not top of the line by any stretch seems to handle the load just fine but the developers follow a much more stringent standard than I have to with my mod. They have to care that most people can run the game for the fully supported number of people whereas I only care if I can run my mod and other people can either play it or not if they can. I liked the old hub cities for sure in regards to their zombie spawning rules and I was always a fan of the bees. In fact my vote was to make them fit in better with the world by adding a couple other giant mutant insects or arachnids. But it was not to bee.... I know from previous commentary that you're of the mind that the best loot should be scarce. Are there any system changes that you're not a fan of? What are your thoughts about the balance between looting/crafting right now or do you like it as it is? I'm not a fan of the current system but I also know it is a WIP and I have hopes regarding the proposed system that has yet to be implemented. I'm not a fan of the speed at which they are working on the loot system and wish they would fix it before upgrading the graphics on the zombies again. The proposed system would have all common loot containers yield broken gear that could only be scrapped for parts or brown or orange weapons. Yellow through Blue quality items should always be extremely rare finds so that players are mostly crafting those quality levels out of the parts they scavenge from the low quality stuff. But the chance for high level loot still remains. I think that it is fine for traders to sell higher quality wares since players can choose to ignore traders if they want to play a game where they do for themselves. I'd much rather find broken guns and scrap them for parts than find individual parts laying around so I am for getting rid of plain parts in loot containers. I'm not a fan of xp in general. I believe that it introduces an incentive that causes players to behave towards zombies in an unnatural way to how they would in an actual zombie apocalypse if that were possible. I created a mod that removes all xp rewards and players simply earn skillpoints each day they stay alive. If they die then the timer resets and they have to wait a full day from the moment of respawn to earn a skillpoint again. I like it. I'm not a fan of the farming system but I didn't really like the last one either. I'd like something that requires proximity to water and involves quality of crops and seeds, seasons, and food spoilage. I don't necessarily want daily tending like Stardew Valley but a system that isn't as shallow as the one we have now would be nice. But I also see something like a "farm mod" taking care of this in the future if TFP doesn't care about farming. I'm not a fan of LBD so I'm happy the devs made the choices they did in that regard. I'm not a fan of crafting simplification. I'm the complete opposite of Joel in this regard. I like complex layers of crafting with raw resources, refined materials, intermediate components, and finished products. I enjoy crafting by physically pounding or wrenching a starter block and having the components get used up from my inventory as the block changes into the thing I'm making. That is so much better to me than simple lists of generic items automatically crafting at the touch of a button. That sort of thing is fine for workbench crafting but crafting out of our backpack should be more than press and forget and then go and do other things while you are simultaneously supposedly crafting. But that would be a pretty radical change.... I love the direction of the zombie AI. I love that they can find ways to get to you. I think that is so much more important than whether they could realistically suss it out or whether it seems like they have an engineering degree. The way they can pathfind to you since A17 is so much superior to pre A17 that I hope the devs never listen to the people who are asking for wholly stupid zombies. It is terrifying and fun when I think my defenses are tight but then the blighters find some pathway I didn't account for and I have to improvise or abandon base. What about the attribute changes tying them to specific weapons? I have no problem with the perk system. I don't think proposals of shifting things around or creating a generic tree with miscellaneous powers in it is the answer. It will just shift who in the community is pissed off and who is happy. I see the attribute and perk system as just needing some adjustment. Tying attributes to specific weapons are just rules and like any game you try and operate and survive using the rules you've been given. I've had a lot of fun with the current ruleset and am not bothered in the least that I have to perk into intelligence if I'm really in the mood to play with stun batons and junk turrets. I don't spend time lamenting that I can't pair up a stun baton with a machine gun without spending extra points if those might have been arbitrarily paired together in the same attribute tree instead of the current config. I think the current system has more to explore than any the past rulesets. Are you fatigued by any of the changes that have happened to the game like the OP? If you're not really in a position to comment I understand (I say that because when I've asked before you've not responded). Not in the least. I am Green Lantern to the OP's Yellow. Each major change in all its broad sweeping glory gives us a brand new game to explore. I've played a dozen similarly themed zombie survival games all named 7 Days to Die and will be truly sad once the development process is finally over. I paid to witness the development process when I pointed my Steam wallet this direction and I haven't been disappointed. Even changes I personally am not excited about are interesting to me and I like to see how they change the dynamics. Once the game goes gold it will be up to the modders to keep the transformative changes alive and I hope they do. I could play new iterations of 7 Days to Die for years to come. It surprises me that people buy into early access and then hate the development process. I know some of them thought they were just buying a fun game but the true entertainment for me has been all the changes. And it continues to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Lots of good stuff there and I don't want a massive post so I won't quote it. So there's a definitive loot nerf coming? I'm absolutely not opposed to that in context of crafting as it stands right now. Even then I think the issue with crafting goes beyond simply loot being too good. Crafting armor and weapons that caps at 5 is silly in a system where it's easy to acquire tier 3 quality 6 loot. But if they nerf loot so that tier 3 quality 6 loot is actually rare then that leaves me in a spot where armor and weapon crafting with the current parts system is still very cumbersome. Beyond the acquisition of the armor parts, it's also annoying that I can't craft decent armor unless I take an armor skill that doesn't really net me much else and requires a 21 point investment in specific attribute, either agility or fort. For weapons everyone is going to be able to craft their prefered weapons as they'll get the associated weapon skill for the weapon perks and damage boosts. But that still leaves a plethora of weapon parts out there that are, currently, completely useless. Not to say that I hate the system, just pointing out the negatives to it. I know it's a system in transition and there's talk of reducing some skills to 3, reworking items a bit, etc. I hope they can find elegant solutions to refine the system. Regarding how plentiful the zombies are in the world, I'm not really sweating that too much. Right now the game isn't exactly optimized. I know people have mentioned performance issues with lots of z's. Maybe they're talking about multiplayer servers as I haven't really experienced that in my coop/solo games. But hopefully in the later stages when they start optimizing they can address things or maybe bump up the spawns. Or maybe their event system will fill in the gaps sufficiently. The idea about part removal is probably one of the biggest item issues I have. Inventory space is a at a premium right now and with having dozens of different part types it's not really feasible to carry them all around and to add to it they don't feel like loot if they're not usable. If I open a sealed crate and and see 6 different types of parts I'm disappointed. The skill points over time concept seems great actually. It incentivises people to stay alive and doesn't result in massive disparities in level in multiplayer presuming people play equally skillful. A very simple buff could be given to people new to aged servers to allow them to catch up without artificially boosting them to the max level. I don't think zombies providing xp influences me as much as my concern is often efficient use of my time and the goal isn't to level. It's to get things done and get back to safety or to the trader before he closes for the day. Farming doesn't really bother me beyond the fact that it's very tedious to try to make enough farm plots to even plant crops early on. Then as the game progresses it eventually becomes trivial. I didn't see previous iterations so I'm not sure what the issue was that necessitated farm plots to begin with. I can imagine it was too easy without requiring a plot to setup a farm? LBD seemed neat but I've heard about people gaming the system by constantly damaging themselves on a cactus to increase their medical skills. For crafting I've gotten used to the build stuff in your inventory while doing other things system from other survival games. I dig Subnautica's fabricator station but the build times are minimal too. It's not really feasible for a player to sit at a workbench crafting something for multiple minutes. If they could make that engaging I'd be down for it, but the sheer amount of crafting we do and the time we spend would need to be drastically reduced. As far as zombie smarts, I'm okay with them finding paths through stuff. I'm more annoyed by things like zombies trying to stand on wedge tips that are vertical and falling resulting in permanent fall loops or some of the odd behavior. Like, one base I had 2 vault hatches placed vertically at opposite sides of my base. They'd beat on a hatch, I'd open it and after a couple second delay they'd run to the other hatch. I could close it and they'd come running back. Effectively I could open the hatch, shoot through for a couple seconds, they'd run, I'd close it, they'd come running back before they could really do anything meaningful. It was just very easily gameable. I expect with a complex system it's difficult to account for every oddity though so I'm not too worried about each and every weird behavior. I think overall the pacing is very good, particularly early game. Without trying to cheese the ai I find I'm often on the cusp of being overrun as the first couple of bloodmoons end. It's even more prevalent if I don't go int and end up not able to find/craft a forge to upgrade to iron. Past that point most zombies though stop becoming a big deal until demos. Even then, I think the change that makes them not detonate if killed was a big step forward in balancing them. I don't disagree regarding attributes. I understand the negatives of a system tying specific weapons to an attribute but at the same time it encourages people to play things that they might not otherwise have played. I'm good with that as I have fun trying different builds and utilizing different weapons because I'm picking different stats and any system they come up with is going to have pros and cons. To me this restriction is acceptable. The two concerns I have with the system that could easily be addressed is it severely limits effective crafting with the crafting also tied to the weapon skill (talked about above) and I don't feel that each tree is comparable in value point for point. I feel like I have to invest way more into some attributes to get the same quality of benefit or that some just aren't comparable. Like I dig agility thematically but it's way too many points to spend for something that isn't really even viable on bloodmoon nights. Also the melee attack speed is kinda silly. I can't justify ever taking that over taking sexual tyrannosaurus and just perma power attacking and melee attack speed isn't useful in stealth when your goal is to one shot anyways. The big kicker with agility (for me in comparison to other attributes) is that I can look at each attribute and see something I want for use outside of combat except agility. IMO I'd like to see them combine the stealth perks (doing stealth damage and more effective stealth) and add a noncombat skill of some kind to replace the missing skill. Maybe find a way to buff the attack speed or combine it with the run and gun talent. That said, I see strength, fortitude, and intelligence as strong choices. Perception I think is okay. I don't see a meaningful difference with lucky looter and I'd prefer a spear power attack that isn't throwing it but that's just a personal preference thing. I think most can agree that 7d2d is a bit of an anomaly in the way development is progressing through EA. I've bought many games in EA and only rarely do they undergo large redesigns. In most cases they're more like late betas than anything and typically games don't stay in EA anywhere near this long. There might be tweaks but not as large as what I've seen here. As far as the fatigue, as long as there's enough time to explore the depth of each iteration I'm cool with it but that's because a typical game I'm not going to play for years and years so it's just refreshing my interest. I'm getting to the point where I'm almost done exploring all the options but I've been playing heavily since Halloween. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 LBD seemed neat but I've heard about people gaming the system by constantly damaging themselves on a cactus to increase their medical skills. Yes, some players have done that and then complained that they supposedly had to do it. The same players now light 20 campfires and farm screamer hordes. These players are the type of player who want to max out everything, no matter if they need it or not. This has nothing to do with LBD but with the mindset of this players. If you hit your thumb with a hammer all the time than the problem is not the hammer but the guy who holds it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 snip. I can agree with what you said about agility. I think the stealth perk is sort of meant to be the combined non-combat heal+resource gathering skill of that tree. Heal because stealthing around avoids you getting hit and resource gathering because saving ammo leads to the same result as gathering/crafting new ammo. It is hard thinking about it that way though. Especially because at the start of the game food and building resources are at least as important as ammo and in single player you need to buy perks elswhere to get that, but other attributes can save ammo as well through doing melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 Yes, some players have done that and then complained that they supposedly had to do it. The same players now light 20 campfires and farm screamer hordes. These players are the type of player who want to max out everything, no matter if they need it or not. This has nothing to do with LBD but with the mindset of this players. If you hit your thumb with a hammer all the time than the problem is not the hammer but the guy who holds it. I don't see that as an issue of player behavior but how a system encourages behavior that doesn't make sense. Swinging a weapon to get better at it makes sense. Running into cactus to take damage so that one can heal trivial damage does not. Campfires drawing in screamers also makes sense within the gameworld. Gaming that for persistent xp farm could be reigned in by having the screamer waves amp up within a proximity rather quickly so that it disincentivizes people from doing so, or a myriad of other solutions. That's the system not being designed in such a way that it covers all angles of how it impacts player behavior. I can agree with what you said about agility. I think the stealth perk is sort of meant to be the combined non-combat heal+resource gathering skill of that tree. Heal because stealthing around avoids you getting hit and resource gathering because saving ammo leads to the same result as gathering/crafting new ammo. It is hard thinking about it that way though. Especially because at the start of the game food and building resources are at least as important as ammo and in single player you need to buy perks elswhere to get that, but other attributes can save ammo as well through doing melee. Maybe in previous iterations it was much easier to do so, but A18 arrows are a pain the ass. Let me say it this way as I've tried stealth builds. In the beginning ammunition/guns are far easier to acquire though it might be a time saver to stealth bow/xbow kill things presuming you spend time farming feathers. As buildings get bigger that's not the case. Later on it's far faster to brute force than it is to stealth it and it's not like healing supplies are limited as it's sorta feast or famine with consumables. Then add to it that arrow costs (particularly scrap polymers) are excessive. I can spend one easy day mass farming gunpowder materials and have enough to last me for several weeks but when I tried a stealth build using bolts/arrows I was constantly running out and having to fall back on other weapons as scrap polymers are farmed in such low quantities from the objects it's sourced from. In the end though I get what you're saying about how it's supposed to cover ammunition/consumables but you're right that other attributes can just melee and powerhouse through 5's. With fortitude and strength melee is a breeze and with int turrets can easily handle the threatening areas with some foresight about which areas are the rough ones in the POI's. Perception seems to me the weakest of the lot for daily use but I can imagine with penetrator that it's really good pending base builds on bloodmoon nights. Right now I'm trying my first pistol/stealth build as I got a silencer schematic early on and I'm hoping that resolves my ammunition issues. The only other build I haven't really tried is the rifle/penetrator one so that's probably what I'll do next. I don't really have high hopes for its performance though relative to the other builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 I don't see that as an issue of player behavior but how a system encourages behavior that doesn't make sense. Swinging a weapon to get better at it makes sense. Running into cactus to take damage so that one can heal trivial damage does not. If you got injured it did not increase your medical skills but your armor skills. I simply increased my armor skills naturally by fighting zombies in close combat. By the way, the same players who hugged a cactus for hours used the shotgun while mining to level it. They used the shotgun to shoot at the rock when it had only a few HP left. The only gun I levelled was the sniper. I used it in the gang night for head shots at cops. It just naturally levelled it. You didn't have to do all that crazy stuff. If you played the game naturally, you levelled what you needed to. Like I said, it's just a mindset of those players. Campfires drawing in screamers also makes sense within the gameworld. Gaming that for persistent xp farm could be reigned in by having the screamer waves amp up within a proximity rather quickly so that it disincentivizes people from doing so, or a myriad of other solutions. That's the system not being designed in such a way that it covers all angles of how it impacts player behavior. There are players who have special screamer bases. These are there to either keep the screamers running in circles or keep them captive until they can't spawn any more hordes. With more and bigger screamer hordes you are just doing these players a favor because they get more XP. The only way to stop such players from abusing these mechanics would be if you remove XP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 The only way to stop such players from abusing these mechanics would be if you remove XP. Hello! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 If you got injured it did not increase your medical skills but your armor skills. I simply increased my armor skills naturally by fighting zombies in close combat. I was referring to comments I've seen where people do that to max out physician (or whatever the equivalent was then). I wasn't around then but my point was some behavior incentivized by LBD made sense and others didn't. Crapping on my point by arguing exactly how is missing the point. By the way, the same players who hugged a cactus for hours used the shotgun while mining to level it. They used the shotgun to shoot at the rock when it had only a few HP left. The only gun I levelled was the sniper. I used it in the gang night for head shots at cops. It just naturally levelled it. You didn't have to do all that crazy stuff. If you played the game naturally, you levelled what you needed to. Like I said, it's just a mindset of those players. Sure absolutely. Some people are just min/maxers by nature. And nitpicking every teeny tiny thing those people do to gain an edge and "fixing" it isn't necessarily making the game better. But if it can be fixed in a way that doesn't negatively impact the typical player then there's little reason to not fix those things. Aside from just how high on the priority list it is. There are players who have special screamer bases. These are there to either keep the screamers running in circles or keep them captive until they can't spawn any more hordes. With more and bigger screamer hordes you are just doing these players a favor because they get more XP. The only way to stop such players from abusing these mechanics would be if you remove XP. That's simply not true. They abuse those mechanics because of a combination of factors, the most blatant you described is the perma fall loop bases that render an infinite number of zombies inconsequential. The problem there is not screamer farming. It's exploiting flaws in zombie AI. There's no reason to encourage people not to try to farm skill points. D&D doesn't encourage people not to get experience. RPG's don't encourage people not to level up. The only thing consistent between genres of RPG's is power progression. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do it efficiently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 One arrives at different conclusions depending on how much the player knows about internal mechanisms of the game. Especially about gamestage. Does the design of 7D2D expect the player to know that gamestage increases with your level and thereby autolevels the opponents as well? If the answer to that is no, then xp is one of the carrots in the game and players will prefer activities that give xp, minmaxers will try to farm xp. Gamestage is then an internal balancing method, the player should optimally feel like the world is advancing and he has to keep up improving to deal with upcoming dangers. That is AFAIK the "normal" method of autoleveling, game designers would like to keep such details under the hood, but naturally it is hard to keep such a thing secret. If the answer to that is yes, then players are incentivised to find and upgrade their gear, but avoid xp-generating activities. But players also want to have and try out new capabilities provided by perks. At least in my case it works out so that I ignore xp even if I consciously think about xp gain. Which I don't do generally anyway. Even RPGs like D&D have a gamestage sort of progression rigidly fixed on player level. It is called a Dungeon Master, is operated by a meat bag and autolevels the enemies . It is assumed that the player does not know this, the secret is hidden away in the DM part of the manual and preferably not mentioned. If it weren't for new feats and spells to try out many players desire to make a level might be quite low when they inevitably find out that mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobTheBard Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 One arrives at different conclusions depending on how much the player knows about internal mechanisms of the game. Especially about gamestage. Does the design of 7D2D expect the player to know that gamestage increases with your level and thereby autolevels the opponents as well? I think this is a big reason why people seem to have such wildly different experiences with the game. If you know how to properly manipulate gamestage then you'll have an entirely different game compared to someone who doesn't and gains it too quickly or too slowly. One could say the 'meta' of 7D2D doesn't involve any particular skill or perk or weapon or base right now so much as it involves carefully metering the rate at which you gain XP. The only playstyles this negatively affects are those that require a lot of skill points to function optimally (Looking at you crafting); everything else is viable. Even RPGs like D&D have a gamestage sort of progression rigidly fixed on player level. It is called a Dungeon Master, is operated by a meat bag and autolevels the enemies . It is assumed that the player does not know this, the secret is hidden away in the DM part of the manual and preferably not mentioned. If it weren't for new feats and spells to try out many players desire to make a level might be quite low when they inevitably find out that mechanism. There's one very, very important distinction though. In D&D the tools at the player's disposal are also gated by their level. You will eventually reach a plateau where you're not gaining any new spells, any new feats, any interesting treasure, or even much money, simply because you haven't progressed at all. You don't see level 8 PCs running around with +5 gear unless you have one of the most permissive Monty Haul DMs in tabletop history. That's not true in 7 Days though, where loot is largely disconnected from the gamestage and thus it's possible (and without careful balance, even probable) to find or buy the game's equivalent of a +5 weapon while still very low level and thus very low gamestage. You can then afford to keep your gamestage low for a long time; there's no real reason to raise it since the only real reward is more difficulty. Since that is the case right now, it circles back to why I think gamestage manipulation and XP metering is the real meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 One arrives at different conclusions depending on how much the player knows about internal mechanisms of the game. Especially about gamestage. That's a level of ignorance of how RPG's work that's hard to accept. Players don't need to know exactly how a specific game mechanic works in order to experience and understand that difficulty is increasing and assess that level impacts it. Hell, that's how every RPG system that uses levels I've ever seen works. Gamestage is just an additional abstraction of that difficulty that incorporates more than just level. Difficulty ramping up as power progresses in RPG's is sorta the entire point of the system in the first place. We'll use D&D as an easy example since we've been using it already... The expectation in D&D is the challenges are going to increase as player power increases. It's not an unknown. It's not unexpected. In fact people look forward to their own hero's journey where they start off facing goblins and kobolds and other trivial monsters and eventually end up slaying dragons and gods. Perhaps to the completely new players who have literally no idea how the game works but anyone who has leveled up once and seen the corresponding increase in both their own power and the difficulty of their enemies understands what you're saying people are expected not to know about. And it's not really any different for about every RPG ever. As players increase in power they face ever greater challenges. Some games started muddying the waters with always scaling worlds (gamestage is an example of this) whereas the older design philosophy was areas with set ranges of power that if you went back to it you would decimate things. If the obstacles players face don't scale up in difficulty through some systems then the power progression system is incomplete as power is relative to the rest of the world and in short order there wouldn't be any challenges left. So to go back to your original question, yes, the expectation is that most players (players who have ever played an RPG with a level system) will understand exactly what's going on with power progression even if they don't explicitly know the nuances of the system. You put forth the idea that that would disincentivize people from wanting to level. That's simply not true. It's not true for me. It's certainly not true for Roland who mentioned he likes to build screamer farming bases. That said I'm sure some people go the other way and minimize experience gain to draw out the progression but I'd be hard pressed to believe they're a substantial percentage of players. That's a fine way to play if one enjoys it as really it's all about player preference/fun, but your assessment of how game systems motivate players is the polar opposite of how it actually works for the average player. I'd bet there's far more people min/maxing experience gains via screamer farming than there are people min/maxing their power via gear relative to gamestage, and neither of those are probably meaningful representations of the average player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 It's certainly not true for Roland who mentioned he likes to build screamer farming bases. You misunderstood Roland. He has created a mod for 7 Days to die which removes the XP from the game. You only get skill points by surviving. The longer you survive the more points you get per day. You'll find his mod here: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?114413-0XP-RolMod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 You misunderstood Roland. He has created a mod for 7 Days to die which removes the XP from the game. You only get skill points by surviving. The longer you survive the more points you get per day. You'll find his mod here: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?114413-0XP-RolMod Ah you're probably correct. I interpreted that statement to mean that he has also played games where he built bases to farm screamers for experience in addition to playing using his xp over time mod. But that makes more sense. Do you think that changes anything I said in some way? Do you think there are more people who avoid gaining experience to prevent their gamestage from increasing than there are people who farm screamers for experience? Do you think either of those groups represent the behavior exhibited by the average player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 I’ve never constructed anything to farm xp. My first year or so of playing this game had zero XP. I like the feeling of surviving in a world destroyed by zombies. I play to experience that world and not tonplay a xp economy game with leveling up as the central feature. Leveling up is a side effect to me. Having played the game before there were xp incentives, and then with xp incentives, and now again with my mod without xp incentives I like playing much better without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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