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A18.1 (b6) Changes: Mining iron ore yields iron?!?


Cadamier

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It just is.

 

And having multiple forges all going adds to the fun.

 

Nobody can help what they find fun and what they don't find fun. There are those who find the process fun. btw-- I don't sit there and stare at the forges at all. If that is what you did then I can understand your disconnect with why having layers and intermediate components is fun for those of us who like it.

 

I wasn't trying to knock it - honestly just curious, because I don't see it. As I've said, I have NMS and love playing it - I take great enjoyment out of all the mining and crafting, but waiting for it all to refine is boring as hell (although when it's finally all done, that is rewarding, but not because of the process so much as the result - i.e. now I can finally DO something with all this stuff). So, like you I do other things. I don't find refining in this game to be as enjoyable as it is in NMS because this game is not designed around it as much, but that's me. To each their own way of fun, and I completely respect that.

 

You got too much DT and not enough Roland to ya. :)

 

Lol. Had this handle since... early 90s. ;)

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Much investment in little outcome...

 

To be honest, the sarcastic suggestion "mine oil canisters" at the beginning of the thread is one of the better and completely sufficient arguments from the one side of the dispute.

 

For the other side, the argument "the funpimps decided that" is the most pathetic argument for a company that has the goal of gathering customers to buy their product. "We decided that the arguments of our most emphatic customers are bull crap" has never ever been a way of successful enterprises.

 

I for myself can well live with the disappearance of that iron ore since we had it that way in some alpha in between already.

 

But isn't it somewhat remarkable that not a single lets player on youtube/twitch and not a single customer here in the forums said anything AGAINST the re-introduction of iron ore when it was reintroduced? They all where HAPPY about that little detail - as far as i remember. Whereas NOWADAYS, when you remove it again, half the customers protest, and even your multiplicators at youtube and twitch are at least somewhat perplexed.

 

Do NEVER EVER let those phenomens distract you from your sacred, decided decisions!

Glory to the funpimps!

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I wasn't trying to knock it - honestly just curious, because I don't see it. As I've said, I have NMS and love playing it - I take great enjoyment out of all the mining and crafting, but waiting for it all to refine is boring as hell (although when it's finally all done, that is rewarding, but not because of the process so much as the result - i.e. now I can finally DO something with all this stuff). So, like you I do other things. I don't find refining in this game to be as enjoyable as it is in NMS because this game is not designed around it as much, but that's me. To each their own way of fun, and I completely respect that.

 

 

 

Lol. Had this handle since... early 90s. ;)

 

Part of the enjoyment is the puzzle of timing things so there is no waiting time. Materials come out of production in time to use for the next crafting job. It takes multiple workstations and planning. Sitting around waiting means your planning failed and you strive to refine your process. It’s not for everyone.

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As for "legacy nonsense" - I'm sorry but that's the technical term. =P

 

For you maybe. There are a host of other games I own that either still grant access to, or discuss Legacy Branches etc with fondness.

 

Its interesting how when you guys talk about Legacy it is with disdain. Like this games past is something to be ashamed of.

 

Google search for "Legacy Nonsense" does not seem to bring up ANY results on page one about it being a technical term.

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Part of the enjoyment is the puzzle of timing things so there is no waiting time. Materials come out of production in time to use for the next crafting job. It takes multiple workstations and planning. Sitting around waiting means your planning failed and you strive to refine your process. It’s not for everyone.

 

Ah, that makes sense (context matters! :smile-new:)- creating your own mini-game/goals within the confines of the game that isn't strictly fed to you. Similar to my constant desire to make an underground farm "just because" - nothing in the game rewards me for it, but I find the end objective (and even the journey along the way) fun and rewarding.

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Can't wait for the "I-Auto-Win" button that they will inevitably introduce in the future. Gonna be amazing! I can just start the game up and click a button just ONCE - and then automatically have a base built, my character maxed out and every zombie in the world gone, I'll unlock hundreds of achievements simultaneously and the game will tell me how awesome I am..I won't have to deal with any of that tedious game play nonsense. I can just skip straight to the glorious end and then go eat fast food and sleep.

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For you maybe. There are a host of other games I own that either still grant access to, or discuss Legacy Branches etc with fondness.

 

Its interesting how when you guys talk about Legacy it is with disdain. Like this games past is something to be ashamed of.

 

Google search for "Legacy Nonsense" does not seem to bring up ANY results on page one about it being a technical term.

 

The nonsense isn’t the old systems. It is the melodrama and harping on and on about the legacy systems. The dev team have debates and voice objections to design choices just as passionately as anyone here on the forum but once the decision is made the team accepts it and supports it.

 

Nobody vows to uninstall or quit. Nobody hints or flat out accuses the choice of being “bad design.” Nobody claims to be the voice of whole player base and sulks that Madmole refuses to listen. Everyone on the team rightly recognizes that once the debate is over and a choice is made its time to get to work.

 

But the dev chat is prone towards business whereas the forums are prone towards nonsense.

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Can't wait for the "I-Auto-Win" button that they will inevitably introduce in the future. Gonna be amazing! I can just start the game up and click a button just ONCE - and then automatically have a base built, my character maxed out and every zombie in the world gone, I'll unlock hundreds of achievements simultaneously and the game will tell me how awesome I am..I won't have to deal with any of that tedious game play nonsense. I can just skip straight to the glorious end and then go eat fast food and sleep.

 

Ah....to be young and able to sleep after eating fast food...

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Some developer saw an opportunity to throw a pain in the ass piece of code in the wood chipper and took advantage of it. It was optimized out. That's the reason.

 

For non-programmers who might not understand the logic behind this...

 

Less code equals fewer bugs.

 

My favorite thing to do is delete code. It is the best thing you can do to code. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic.)

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The nonsense isn’t the old systems. It is the melodrama and harping on and on about the legacy systems. The dev team have debates and voice objections to design choices just as passionately as anyone here on the forum but once the decision is made the team accepts it and supports it.

 

Nobody vows to uninstall or quit. Nobody hints or flat out accuses the choice of being “bad design.” Nobody claims to be the voice of whole player base and sulks that Madmole refuses to listen. Everyone on the team rightly recognizes that once the debate is over and a choice is made its time to get to work.

 

But the dev chat is prone towards business whereas the forums are prone towards nonsense.

 

Thats... not what he meant when he said it. He literally said it was a technical term.

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Everyone who is disappointed (I'm including myself) at the streamlining of crafting need to re-adjust their expectations of the game. It is a "crafting-like" game. Period. The developers are not interested in deep and simulation level crafting being a pillar of the game. There are other games that have each step of refinement and interfaces for assembly and disassembly and intermediate components and production lines and economy of scale and automation etc etc.

 

This game is not striving to be one of those "crafting-heavy" games. If we want it to have a more robust crafting footprint with layers and layers then we will have to mod it that way. I wish there was a defined step between raw ores and what we use for crafting things. I dig (pun intended) those processes. But others, including the decision makers, don't like them. They see them as tedious and even illogical (inexplicably...).

 

I can imagine that most people with 1000+ hours are going to look at (Mine --> Raw Iron --> Smelting --> Usable Iron) vs (Mine --> Usable Iron) as a no brainer for choosing the second option. They are burnt out on processes that eat up time and want to just get to the usable iron without having to do what they would consider a useless step that only exists for its own sake. New players and crafting nuts would of course be fine with the first option because the former wouldn't know any better and is not yet burned out and the latter would be happy with several steps of refinement when you get right down to it....

 

TFP has made their final decision on this matter. Crafting is there for when you can't get something by looting or trading. It is the back up plan. It is the boring time consuming part of getting stuff you want and so naturally they will change it to be more streamlined and abstract so that it becomes less and less of an obstacle to the time spent on looting and exploring and shopping. And the more the devs play this game and the more hours they put it the more likely they will be to further streamline the bothersome part. And the more populated this forum is by 1000+ hour players the more likely they will be to agree that too much involved crafting to get what you really just want to have is a bad idea and it should be streamlined down.

 

It is disappointing but it is not objectively bad design. It is simply a choice of what features in the game are going to be emphasized and given depth. This game can't be 11 in every single genre it has mashed up in it. It isn't going to out Stardew Valley Stardew Valley for farming and it isn't going to out Space Engineer Space Engineers for crafting and assembly. They've decided to go lighter on those aspects of the game to emphasize other parts of the game that are also admittedly fun.

 

Most importantly, the customer response to these changes can't be ignored. It is doing better than it ever has with a heaver emphasis on looting and shooting and a lighter emphasis on crafting and farming. And it is stupid to just chalk up all the good will to "stupid people who don't know good design". The truth is the design is fine and just doesn't mesh well with our particular preference of deeper crafting.

 

 

I appreciate you gunning for some kind of diplomacy on this topic and I respect you as a moderator and a person, but it’s a tough thing to see happen to a game that sells crafting as a big feature (I mean, it’s right in the damn logo). It’s disappointing to say the least.

 

At some point they might have to consider changing it from “The survival horde crafting game” to “The survival horde shooting game”. I mean, obviously it’s there game and sure, do what you want with it, but I think it’s misleading to speak so highly of a feature that is not represented as such in the actual game like it once was.

 

 

Loc

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The nonsense isn’t the old systems. It is the melodrama and harping on and on about the legacy systems. The dev team have debates and voice objections to design choices just as passionately as anyone here on the forum but once the decision is made the team accepts it and supports it.

 

Nobody vows to uninstall or quit. Nobody hints or flat out accuses the choice of being “bad design.” Nobody claims to be the voice of whole player base and sulks that Madmole refuses to listen. Everyone on the team rightly recognizes that once the debate is over and a choice is made its time to get to work.

 

But the dev chat is prone towards business whereas the forums are prone towards nonsense.

 

Too bad the playerbase is not able to listen to those discussions as it may save on some of the post change discussion/"drama".

 

I also don't think you can compare the voicing of objections by the devs to a proposed change to the voicing of objections by the playerbase on the forums to an implemented change.

 

The devs talk about what will be and/or get direct feedback as to why it should be one way or another, where the player are given the change with no explanation or discussion (other than "because" or simplistic answers "it served no purpose"). The devs participate in the decision making and come to an understanding, the players do not. So while the devs' best interests is business, the players' best interests is getting a game that they enjoy, and that is why the uproar when the game they enjoy is slowly being eroded (but then again,they already spent money on the game).

 

Also I don't recall seeing someone in this thread mention this change as bad design, that madmole isn't listening, or that they speak for the whole playerbase.....but I may have missed it.

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I appreciate you gunning for some kind of diplomacy on this topic and I respect you as a moderator and a person, but it’s a tough thing to see happen to a game that sells crafting as a big feature (I mean, it’s right in the damn logo). It’s disappointing to say the least.

 

At some point they might have to consider changing it from “The survival horde crafting game” to “The survival horde shooting game”. I mean, obviously it’s there game and sure, do what you want with it, but I think it’s misleading to speak so highly of a feature that is not represented as such in the actual game like it once was.

 

 

Loc

 

This. This one hundred fold.

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Also I don't recall seeing someone in this thread mention this change as bad design, that madmole isn't listening, or that they speak for the whole playerbase.....but I may have missed it.

 

You missed it but don't worry.... It'll come round again. :)

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At some point they might have to consider changing it from “The survival horde crafting game” to “The survival horde shooting game”. I mean, obviously it’s there game and sure, do what you want with it, but I think it’s misleading to speak so highly of a feature that is not represented as such in the actual game like it once was.

 

Loc

 

Even if it isn't represented as it once was I think it is a bit over the top to say we should remove it from the title and logo. Crafting is still definitely in the game. For someone who only ever played a straight shooter and then came to this game I can tell you that they would think there is an awful lot of crafting in it.

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Even if it isn't represented as it once was I think it is a bit over the top to say we should remove it from the title and logo. Crafting is still definitely in the game. For someone who only ever played a straight shooter and then came to this game I can tell you that they would think there is an awful lot of crafting in it.

 

Yeah I agree here. There is more to craft than ever before with mods/guns and whatnot. Just because we got rid of iron ore/crafting mechanical parts and springs crafting is completely dead and needs to be removed from the title? That's... a bit extream.

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Even if it isn't represented as it once was I think it is a bit over the top to say we should remove it from the title and logo. Crafting is still definitely in the game. For someone who only ever played a straight shooter and then came to this game I can tell you that they would think there is an awful lot of crafting in it.

 

That is why I mentioned “at some point”, implying that if this is a continued direction, crafting will be less and less of a feature. So I don’t think it’s over the top, it’s maybe ahead of the curve more than anything.

 

 

Loc

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That is why I mentioned “at some point”, implying that if this is a continued direction, crafting will be less and less of a feature. So I don’t think it’s over the top, it’s maybe ahead of the curve more than anything.

 

 

Loc

 

From my perspective, that has continually happened ever since the original streamlining happened prior to console release. Crafting recipes used to be quite a bit deeper with much more steps. Throughout the course of the last few years, that particular mechanic has gotten more and more simplified. Some might say it is less tedious. I personally think it's just less enjoyable.

 

I assume the primary reason they have continually streamlined things is to attract more players. I am thinking that they are of the impression that gamer's want quicker gratification. Which is somewhat true, I guess. But, not always. Even Minecraft and Terraria have deeper crafting than this game does - and even young children can easily understand, and have the patience for the deeper crafting.

 

For me, it seems like some of the developers game preferences and tastes have changed over they years and while at one point they might have enjoyed deeper crafting, they now no longer like it so are changing the game to fit their new tastes. Unfortunately, I haven't changed and still liked some of the original ideas they had.

 

In my opinion, this game plays out much more like borderlands or something like that compared to what it used to be. When I think of what the main focus or what you spend the most time doing as far as efficient gameplay and what is now the most fleshed out - I think it's the looting and shooting. The crafting and survival is just kind of in the background.

 

Over the last few releases, i've often wondered how the same person(s) who developed some of the ideas behind the game A1-A11 would even want things like A12-A18 - i've wondered if like someone that was involved in the early alphas quit working with TFP or if something else happened. At times, when I look at the creative design of the game and compare now to then - it's almost like two completely different people were in charge of the creativity. For how I see it anyway, the change is so drastic in some cases that it's hard to even imagine the same person being that drastically different so quickly.

 

 

This was the moment for me when the game started to go downhill

 

 

 

I remember being so disappointed when I saw that video. Everything was completely different in that preview than from how the game was originally. That was the moment for me where I truly felt like what I like about their game is something they hated about their game. Before, the only problems I ever had with the game was the time they had cut the zombie numbers down..everything else was better and better with each update. The building in this game was so unique, fun and even had a bit of a realistic feel to it. If I were to show people two different versions of the game (using the same graphics) and showed some of the crafting and building features of now and then - I'd have to guess that most people would think the older version was far more advanced and modern compared to the direction the game inevitably went.

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Yeah I agree here. There is more to craft than ever before with mods/guns and whatnot. Just because we got rid of iron ore/crafting mechanical parts and springs crafting is completely dead and needs to be removed from the title? That's... a bit extream.

 

No but from Roland's earlier post it seems TFP is now trying to steer away from crafting. They're trying to play it smart by doing small things/baby steps so that we don't notice. But guys, we notice :). 7D2D does not seem like a shooter to me at least for now. I think it's a HUGE mistake if they try to reduce or simplify crafting even further. There are too many games out there that are FPS with little crafting. Will 7D2D go that route and become 'just another zombie game?'

 

In fact I think they should expand on crafting and of course make it optional for those players who don't like to craft. Bringing back books, schematics and other methods to encourage exploration was a step in the right direction. Those book series 7/7 encourages even builders

to loot more so that they can do things (build/craft) more efficiently.

 

The game features on their steam store are: Explore, build, craft, create, etc. TFP should expand on those features, not reduce them.

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Do NEVER EVER let those phenomens distract you from your sacred, decided decisions!

Glory to the funpimps!

 

Funny how every major alpha is essentially a complete rewrite of the game. In other words, from A16 -> A18 you basically had to learn the game from scratch again. Their 'sacred, decided decisions' were spot on! :).

 

Heh just messing with ya. :).

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I think TFP need to get a couple more projects going to help direct their itching to implement new ideas into other more suitable projects, instead of trying to adjust every single time to match what games they think are the best during some moment in the dev cycle.

If they had a real looter/shooter game in the works right now, they would not be so inclined to make changes that diminish the crafting and survival portions of this game.

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This was the moment for me when the game started to go downhill

 

 

Oh, Yes, it was the beginning of a descent into stupidity...

 

 

I also think something broke in the head of the developers, maybe they lost interest for game and there was only business and nothing personal, or tired of long production, or perhaps - age clouded consciousness...

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