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A18.1 (b6) Changes: Mining iron ore yields iron?!?


Cadamier

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Someone started this topic with concerns over the change and to express their dislike for it. I am expressing that I understand the change, because on its own, it is very logical and reasonable. I think the simplification trend is going too far, so in some way, sure you could say I am against this change.

I came in here to express that. Over the past few alphas, some people have been complaining that the game is starting to lean too much towards a looter/shooter. I've always been all right with that. Add more content to make it more looter/shooter... but don't take away from crafting, mining, survival, horde defense, and just about every other aspect in this game that I and so many people enjoy. I'm looking at the bigger picture, and my contribution to this thread is to express my opinion that the trend has gone far enough.

 

However, some people come in here, and threads like these, just to be condescending and use derogatory terminology against people with opinions that do not align with their own. If these people already have what they want, why the need to act in such an aggressive way? It is equivalent to in real life pointing and laughing in someone's face because you got your way and they didn't. "Oh, you lost your smelting, you gonna cry? You a little baby, gonna cry over an icon?" It's disgraceful.

 

I agree with you 100%.

 

Don't worry about the trolls. Ignore them and they return to the comfort of the dark under their bridge. :smile-new:

 

 

Loc

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However, some people come in here, and threads like these, just to be condescending and use derogatory terminology against people with opinions that do not align with their own. If these people already have what they want, why the need to act in such an aggressive way? It is equivalent to in real life pointing and laughing in someone's face because you got your way and they didn't. "Oh, you lost your smelting, you gonna cry? You a little baby, gonna cry over an icon?" It's disgraceful.

And some people come in these threads to provide context and perspective for seeing such changes in light of a bigger picture. That's usually how coping in any scenario is achieved. When this is met with inconsistent and incoherent arguments designed only to assuage their emotional attachment, it tends not to go well.

 

The irony? I haven't even made up my mind one way or the other. I haven't even played A18 yet. But reading arguments for and against I can't help but think that the side that's against the change is more *reasonable* as they rarely rely on "you are wrong" argument and instead provide, you know, *reasons* for not liking the change.

No, they tend to resort to emotional opinions about why they want to keep what they had. They are welcome to their opinions about why they liked the thing, but their reasons for why it belongs tend to fall woefully short of "reasonable."

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If the change was made to reduce items, get rid of fishing weights and lead trophies. Lead is totally abundant now from mines. And maybe I'm in the minority, but I liked crafting fertilizer in the chem station from turds instead of using rotting flesh to make farm plots (even though rotting flesh was also an ingredient used to make fertilizer in the cement mixer in the same alpha).

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Does no one else feel that lead and brass more closely align with raw iron than scrap iron? The thing is, there's not much you can do (last I remember) without smelting your lead and brass to make items. (There may be a recipe somewhere I'm forgetting) however, my feeling was always that those items had to be refined in the forge, the same as raw iron.

 

The scrap iron, however, had a special use outside of the forge, you were able do essentially take chunks you ripped off of cars and buildings and attach them to walls to increase strength, or bend them into spikes.

Seems strange to mine chunks of metal out of a raw ore vein and it be the same usability as a car door I ripped off.

 

I know, everyone starts comparing to brass and lead at this point...but, what are you crafting with your brass or lead in your pack? Anything you scrap in those materials is almost 100% going in the forge just like the raw iron, so scrapped brass/lead makes sense to be the same as mined, as there is little other use.

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Come on dude, you throw out numbers to prove your point, then you're proven wrong, then throw up your hands and say "Well it just feels wrong" Don't you think you are just being a tad unreasonable at this point?

 

Er what?!! I did testing on my stable world to make sure the numbers were correct because someone replied to the OP giving his own numbers (in experimental) with the new change. Results from mining were thrown out on both sides and I just merely confirmed the you still got 1:5 ratio. What is wrong with fact checking? Also have you been paying attention to what I said? My argument was that this was in game for a very long time and that for long time players it will be hard to get used to. Me saying it just doesn't feel right adds to that.

 

So dude, chill out...

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Look, I feel you guys about the whole raw iron thing, I get it. But look at it from another perspective: bloat = more system resources, period. Yes it's small, but if you add 1 enough times it turns into thousands too. To be honest, with the removal of stuff and addition of stuff, my load times have increased a bit even. Things like the hoe, raw iron and etc getting removed means more room for other stuff. I've never played Minecraft, but I have heard of cases where people need a beast PC when they add a bunch of mods that adds stuff. Are we really wanting to keep things such as raw iron and scrap iron insted of just raw iron (and the tons of other things removed) and alienate the game to people with multi k$ pcs, just for 'immersion'?

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As for "legacy nonsense" - I'm sorry but that's the technical term. =P

 

I've been in software development for over a decade. I've know of the term legacy but haven't heard of 'legacy nonsense' (your exact words). Quit trying to pull the wool over the eyes of non-technical people ;).

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Also: Page 9? That's awesome. Oh, the good old days when wood was made more granular and players would lose their ♥♥♥♥ over the no-change. =P

 

Aye, it's dull. Anything in the works that will hopefully stir up the forums a bit more?

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"I need my 25-pin serial Zip drive to work with my 2-in-1!" <---- Legacy nonsense.

 

"We're going to save game resources by removing iron ore" <---- Developer nonsense.

 

"Oh look... here's a recipe for "Mary Magdalene Tarts." Betcha they're easy" <---- Sister Hubert Nunsense.

 

 

 

-Morloc

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Look, I feel you guys about the whole raw iron thing, I get it. But look at it from another perspective: bloat = more system resources, period. Yes it's small, but if you add 1 enough times it turns into thousands too. To be honest, with the removal of stuff and addition of stuff, my load times have increased a bit even. Things like the hoe, raw iron and etc getting removed means more room for other stuff. I've never played Minecraft, but I have heard of cases where people need a beast PC when they add a bunch of mods that adds stuff. Are we really wanting to keep things such as raw iron and scrap iron insted of just raw iron (and the tons of other things removed) and alienate the game to people with multi k$ pcs, just for 'immersion'?

 

There has to be a balance though. Take the boring tasks out of the game, the tasks that are there to only take up time, and stream line the items that are in the game.....but keep it believable so I can continue to have some sort of cohesive immersion with the game.

 

I mean, honestly, how much load will it take off the game removing one item and one icon? You still have the textures of the iron vein, still have the load from mining the vein, still have the load from smelting the material.

 

No, imo this change was done because someone thought "this iron is clogging up my inventory and all I can do is smelt it....let's get rid of it and just use iron scraps/processed iron cause then I can use it without smelting it". And I can tell you now, that person enjoys looting and shooting the most in the game.

 

The fact that iron ore was removed is not huge (though it is illogical to have finished product come from mining), what is huge is that this is another step that reduces the feel of surviving in a zombie apocalypse in favor of more immediate gratification.

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There has to be a balance though. Take the boring tasks out of the game, the tasks that are there to only take up time, and stream line the items that are in the game.....but keep it believable so I can continue to have some sort of cohesive immersion with the game.

You do recognize that these are subjective, right?

 

No, imo this change was done because someone thought "this iron is clogging up my inventory and all I can do is smelt it....let's get rid of it and just use iron scraps/processed iron cause then I can use it without smelting it". And I can tell you now, that person enjoys looting and shooting the most in the game.

I doubt it. You just said it yourself, "All I can do is smelt it." If there is a material which has exactly one purpose or one recipe, it isn't worth keeping.

 

The fact that iron ore was removed is not huge (though it is illogical to have finished product come from mining), what is huge is that this is another step that reduces the feel of surviving in a zombie apocalypse in favor of more immediate gratification.

Because you totally would have an iron mine and be forging metal to make a brand new pick axe in the zombie apocalypse. I wonder why that isn't in zombie movies...

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Also: Page 9? That's awesome. Oh, the good old days when wood was made more granular and players would lose their ♥♥♥♥ over the no-change. =P

 

Who won the office pool for "minor tweak that rustles the most jimmies" this week?

 

ETA: The strawmen and reductio-ad-absurdum fallacies in this thread are top-notch. Well done, almost everyone.

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Everyone who is disappointed (I'm including myself) at the streamlining of crafting need to re-adjust their expectations of the game. It is a "crafting-like" game. Period. The developers are not interested in deep and simulation level crafting being a pillar of the game. There are other games that have each step of refinement and interfaces for assembly and disassembly and intermediate components and production lines and economy of scale and automation etc etc.

 

This game is not striving to be one of those "crafting-heavy" games. If we want it to have a more robust crafting footprint with layers and layers then we will have to mod it that way. I wish there was a defined step between raw ores and what we use for crafting things. I dig (pun intended) those processes. But others, including the decision makers, don't like them. They see them as tedious and even illogical (inexplicably...).

 

I can imagine that most people with 1000+ hours are going to look at (Mine --> Raw Iron --> Smelting --> Usable Iron) vs (Mine --> Usable Iron) as a no brainer for choosing the second option. They are burnt out on processes that eat up time and want to just get to the usable iron without having to do what they would consider a useless step that only exists for its own sake. New players and crafting nuts would of course be fine with the first option because the former wouldn't know any better and is not yet burned out and the latter would be happy with several steps of refinement when you get right down to it....

 

TFP has made their final decision on this matter. Crafting is there for when you can't get something by looting or trading. It is the back up plan. It is the boring time consuming part of getting stuff you want and so naturally they will change it to be more streamlined and abstract so that it becomes less and less of an obstacle to the time spent on looting and exploring and shopping. And the more the devs play this game and the more hours they put it the more likely they will be to further streamline the bothersome part. And the more populated this forum is by 1000+ hour players the more likely they will be to agree that too much involved crafting to get what you really just want to have is a bad idea and it should be streamlined down.

 

It is disappointing but it is not objectively bad design. It is simply a choice of what features in the game are going to be emphasized and given depth. This game can't be 11 in every single genre it has mashed up in it. It isn't going to out Stardew Valley Stardew Valley for farming and it isn't going to out Space Engineer Space Engineers for crafting and assembly. They've decided to go lighter on those aspects of the game to emphasize other parts of the game that are also admittedly fun.

 

Most importantly, the customer response to these changes can't be ignored. It is doing better than it ever has with a heaver emphasis on looting and shooting and a lighter emphasis on crafting and farming. And it is stupid to just chalk up all the good will to "stupid people who don't know good design". The truth is the design is fine and just doesn't mesh well with our particular preference of deeper crafting.

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By gamedesign, there are several hours per day that the player is intended to spend time in the base.

What else to do than crafting, reorganizing the inventory and picking perks?

Making crafting simpler / too trivial can also lead to boredom during the night.

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By gamedesign, there are several hours per day that the player is intended to spend time in the base.

What else to do than crafting, reorganizing the inventory and picking perks?

Making crafting simpler / too trivial can also lead to boredom during the night.

 

Then go out and fight at night (they have an entire perk book set dedicated to it called Nightstalker), or dig a hole in the ground and mine (just make sure you're more than 30 blocks deep if you don't want to rile the neighbors). Why is it more fun waiting on the Forge to melt down Iron Ore into Iron, to then have it be spit back out so you can use it for crafting/building/etc., rather than simply having it already from mining? You either save that extra step of staring at the Forge doing nothing, or you have the choice of continuing to mine and essentially doubling your productivity (since now you don't have to wait all day for the Forge to smelt the Iron Ore into usable Iron).

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Why is it more fun waiting on the Forge to melt down Iron Ore into Iron, to then have it be spit back out so you can use it for crafting/building/etc., rather than simply having it already from mining?

 

It just is.

 

And having multiple forges all going adds to the fun.

 

Nobody can help what they find fun and what they don't find fun. There are those who find the process fun. btw-- I don't sit there and stare at the forges at all. If that is what you did then I can understand your disconnect with why having layers and intermediate components is fun for those of us who like it.

 

You got too much DT and not enough Roland to ya. :)

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They are burnt out on processes that eat up time and want to just get to the usable iron without having to do what they would consider a useless step that only exists for its own sake.

 

Just a reminder (to all)...sandbox(y) games are about the journey, not the destination....because; what would the destination of a game like this even be?

 

 

 

-Morloc

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Who won the office pool for "minor tweak that rustles the most jimmies" this week?

 

ETA: The strawmen and reductio-ad-absurdum fallacies in this thread are top-notch. Well done, almost everyone.

 

Back in Alpha 8 or 9 I made a suggestion to Madmole that he listened to and implemented. It was to add a bellows that you would have to craft using animal hide and pipes. It was my attempt to add an intermediate component to the forge. He did it and over the years has since changed it making it easier and easier to craft the bellows and now finally most recently removing it from the forge recipe altogether and making it an optional attachment.

 

There isn't really any jimmie rustling going on over the minor tweak of changing iron ore to scrap iron. The jimmie rustling is over the ongoing de-emphasizing of crafting over a long time. Those with unrustled jimmies are obviously those who don't particularly care about crafting being a big emphasis. The game is still fun.

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This game is dead to me. Congrats on your new looter shooter folks. I only wish I could get a refund after 2k hours played, as this is no longer the game i purchased.

:D :D :D I have had to check your posts history because I was sure you were kidding.

In fact no, you really are that kind of guy :D

This thread is a goldmine.

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This game is dead to me. Congrats on your new looter shooter folks. I only wish I could get a refund after 2k hours played, as this is no longer the game i purchased.

 

That is a ridiculous sentiment.

 

A) The game you purchased still exists and you can play it. Just Opt in.

B) The amount you paid to get 2K hours of fun is the biggest video game bargain you could possibly hope to get.

C) There is no product on earth you can use for 2K hours and expect to get a refund.

D) Modding the game is easier than angst

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