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A18.1 (b6) Changes: Mining iron ore yields iron?!?


Cadamier

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There seemed to be no hysteric posts at all about lead, potassium, coal, and rock being usable right after being mined so I don't see how this is even qualifies for "change".

 

It's just not special if you take a step back.

 

You mine iron, you smelt it into bars if you want to craft anything useful with it.

Nothing unusual there.

 

That weird half step was some legacy nonsense.

 

As for "legacy nonsense" - I'm sorry but that's the technical term. =P

 

next up?

Oil shale blocks mine directly into gasoline.

Lead veins mine directly into bullets.

Brass radiators/handles/etc have been replaced with bullet casings.

 

It looks like there are several other "legacy nonsense half steps" that need taken care of.

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Of course it's "simpler" to have processed iron come from the ground, but it would also be simpler to have gun powder and cement come from rocks so you don't have to process them. Also, wouldn't it be simpler to just get all the loot from appliances and cars by searching them instead of having to wrench them?

 

Straw man. Raw Iron was only ever used in a recipe to create Iron. It was a "basic" building block that only had one pathway, and one step. Cement, which is made from Small Rocks and Sand (itself which can be made from Small Rocks), is the end of a larger chain: Small Rocks -> Sand, plus Small Rocks = Cement. The two are not comparable, and trying to make it such is deliberately obtuse - hence, straw man. It was an added step in a process for the sake of having a process - completely unnecessary tedium that some people will call "complexity". Roland touched on a point regarding complexity in other games, where the process chains are much longer, and the entire gameplay loop is built around that. 7D2D is not those games - it borrows elements of them, and whittles them down to their basic core to add overall complexity to the gameplay without adding tedium. It's a delicate balance, and some clearly don't agree with it, but it's the way this game is designed.

 

You don't have to agree with the decision, but it's a valid decision made for the right reasons for the intended goals, and all this "Chicken Little" nonsense is more than a little ridiculous. Don't like it? Mod it, or play something else. We have broad freedom of choice in what games we play - it's a beautiful time to be a gamer in so many ways.

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Perhaps step 4 ain't too many years away , like modular buildings and landclaim block to autolevel the ground before building. Modular building simular to what is in subnautica, nms and breathedge. Hmmm.. Have they published their roadmap yet?

 

Removing terrain voxels could actually work.

Make all terrain classic 2D. And only spawn in a voxel representation if a player changes anything at that position.

Its basically how Empyrion works. (way less data to process)

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next up?

Oil shale blocks mine directly into gasoline.

Lead veins mine directly into bullets.

Brass radiators/handles/etc have been replaced with bullet casings.

 

It looks like there are several other "legacy nonsense half steps" that need taken care of.

 

While we are at it:

Yucca pants are replaced with 1/5th of a medicated bandage plant.

Blood bags replaced with a medkit, medkits aren't craftable anymore.

15 different types of food replaced with "poor, ok, good" food.

empty cans replaced with iron

Fire axes, pickaxes, shovels, hoes, and sledges replaced with a "TOOL" that does it all.

all varieties of canned food replaced with one "canned food" item.

remove water mechanic all together, because it's trivial to keep it topped up.

Stamina removed from game, food just controls max health.

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Technical terms never last today. Someone eventually decides it is either offensive or doesn’t fully encapsulate the full meaning that a new term supposedly can.

 

The question is whether this game needs to be like Space Engineers or Empyrion by making raw resources unusable until refined or processed somehow. My feeling is that most would say no. I personally like that particular sharp stick but then I would have made it so that raw iron wouldn’t even be able to be scrapped in the backpack. I would force the player to process it through the forge before being able to take it as scrap or of course turn it into forged iron. And I would bring all the other mined resources into alignment with that.

 

But such a design sounds more extreme that what we have so it also sounds more like the subject of a mod.

 

Any ore should be processed. Thats what the bases economy is for (plausible). Scavanged items can be repurposed for some simple tools (also plausible). Any advanced items needing refined materials like pig-iron or high carbon steel. Needs a base then, and cant be done on the run.

Thats how I would imagine it...

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[...]You don't have to agree with the decision, but it's a valid decision made for the right reasons for the intended goals, and all this "Chicken Little" nonsense is more than a little ridiculous. Don't like it? Mod it, or play something else. We have broad freedom of choice in what games we play - it's a beautiful time to be a gamer in so many ways.

 

Ah, yes, the ever convincing "if you disagree with me you are wrong" argument. OK, I'm convinced now.

 

This argument is like an admission of guilt - you use it only when you have no valid ones left.

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This is the sort of nonsensical, butthurt logic that is annoying. It has been shown that the raw iron was a pointless extra step, one that was literally proportional in every way to its outcome. Furthermore, the raw iron was useless for anything else (unlike stone, shale, etc.). Get over it.

 

That was unnecessary. I had already previously stated that I accept the change and I understand the reason behind doing it. That doesn't mean I don't find the whole situation humorous.

What I don't accept is the diminishing depth of survival in this game. I've pointed out before, and I will again. The only reason that TFP was able to come to the conclusion that raw iron to iron is now silly, is because of previous changes that led up to it. The most notable and ridiculous change was that they allowed the scrapping of iron ore into iron with your bare hands to begin with.

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Yeah that seems a little over the top of an argument for such a small change. There needs to be a certain amount of simplicity when it comes to games like this. Otherwise it would start to be a little too much complexity. Why are you okay with being able to use processed iron that you get from cars in construction? Shouldn't you be forced to smelt down all the iron that you find and have to use different molds to create different items to be used in different crafts? Why can you use wood straight from a tree and turn it in to furniture without having to process it first? Why do most the bullets use the same tip and casing even though they are different calibers? Simple, it's because having to do all that stuff would just be tedious and would inevitably take away from the game. However it is you justify it to yourself that you don't have to process all this other stuff to use it just think about it the same way with iron.

 

1) processed iron from loot and objects: items you can make with it outside of work benches and other construction tools are reasonablely believable to be able to do....getting processed iron from an ore node is not.

 

2) wood into furniture without making planks: I would argue that any complex creation from wood would need to be done at the work bench where wood processing would be part of the creation process (in the background, no micromanaging needed), though you could also say that part of the crafting time in the inventory involves chopping the wood into appropriate parts to craft the item......getting processed iron/product from nodes is not appropriate. A better comparison with wood would be hitting the tree with an ax and getting the furniture.

 

3) I don't think it's appropriate to use the same bullet tips for all bullets. This is another dumbing down of the game. Have rifle tips, slug tips (used for 9mm and shotgun slugs), and buck shot for shotgun shells. It would make people need to think about what to craft, if they want to scrap the tips they found or keep them, and create inventory scarcity.

 

 

I don't justify these "simpler" changes, I constantly shake my head at the dumbing down of all entertainment and how people eat it up with their 5 second attention spans and need for immediate gratification.

 

On the note of "simpler" changes and "legacy nonsense", when are the brass faucets/candle sticks/doornobs/radiators and lead weights going to be taken out of the game and replaced with just brass and lead?

 

I mean, those things served the same purpose as raw iron, a material to be smelted or scrapped down into a useful material, and don't serve any other purpose for the player. Is that on the board for the next update?

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How dare you complain about something you don't like? If you can't make your own better game, then stay quiet.

 

I'm just surprised by all this "streamlining" of the crafting that is happening alongside the "steel sledgehammer parts are very different than steel fire axe parts, and also forged steel can't be somehow heated up and hammered into a similar shape ether at all".

 

It seems like the dev team might not all be going to the same meetings.

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Straw man. Raw Iron was only ever used in a recipe to create Iron. It was a "basic" building block that only had one pathway, and one step. Cement, which is made from Small Rocks and Sand (itself which can be made from Small Rocks), is the end of a larger chain: Small Rocks -> Sand, plus Small Rocks = Cement. The two are not comparable, and trying to make it such is deliberately obtuse - hence, straw man. It was an added step in a process for the sake of having a process - completely unnecessary tedium that some people will call "complexity". Roland touched on a point regarding complexity in other games, where the process chains are much longer, and the entire gameplay loop is built around that. 7D2D is not those games - it borrows elements of them, and whittles them down to their basic core to add overall complexity to the gameplay without adding tedium. It's a delicate balance, and some clearly don't agree with it, but it's the way this game is designed.

 

You don't have to agree with the decision, but it's a valid decision made for the right reasons for the intended goals, and all this "Chicken Little" nonsense is more than a little ridiculous. Don't like it? Mod it, or play something else. We have broad freedom of choice in what games we play - it's a beautiful time to be a gamer in so many ways.

 

Doornobs, brass radiators, candle sticks, lead weights.....what about those. The initial example of iron ore ->processed iron = stone ->cement was an EXAGGERATION, but what about all the other items in the game that are only ment to be processed into useful items.

 

Those things are not in there just to be processed, they are in there to add ambiance to the game and engagement for the player...to make the player feel like they are in the zombie apocalypse. Streamlined or simpler isn't always better, there has to be a balance between efficiency and complexity an it is my opinion that the game is going in the wrong direction.

 

Also, the argument of "don't like it, tough sh*t" is a 12 year old cop out used to dismiss any argument that you don't like and don't want to/can't make a proper defense against. It also can alienate players who enjoy/love the game as a whole but have certain concerns. So why don't you leave the "love the game the way it is or just leave" attitude at the WoW forums.

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Ah, yes, the ever convincing "if you disagree with me you are wrong" argument. OK, I'm convinced now.

 

This argument is like an admission of guilt - you use it only when you have no valid ones left.

More like it's the argument that you use when the other side refuses to accept the reasoned argument. I mean, it isn't as though the reasons for the change have been undermined, and yet the arguments rage on.

 

That was unnecessary. I had already previously stated that I accept the change and I understand the reason behind doing it. That doesn't mean I don't find the whole situation humorous.

What I don't accept is the diminishing depth of survival in this game. I've pointed out before, and I will again. The only reason that TFP was able to come to the conclusion that raw iron to iron is now silly, is because of previous changes that led up to it. The most notable and ridiculous change was that they allowed the scrapping of iron ore into iron with your bare hands to begin with.

Ummm, if you already accept the change, then why keep posting bad logic against it?

 

Anyway, your point is wrong. Iron ore was a singularly-purposed intermediate step which had no value. Not even the minimal decision of whether to scrap it or smelt it changes this. That's the difference between this and all the stupid comparisons that Nucleus keeps trying to make.

 

Look, there is a process for getting the 4x4, and it is reasonable. TFP seems to think the same. It took me 90 minutes to make the 4x4. Should they streamline that? Not at all, and they won't. Crafting is good and important. Having tedious intermediate steps in the crafting process is not.

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Ah, yes, the ever convincing "if you disagree with me you are wrong" argument. OK, I'm convinced now.

 

This argument is like an admission of guilt - you use it only when you have no valid ones left.

 

The irony in your statement is killing me. Thanks for the chuckle.

 

That was unnecessary. I had already previously stated that I accept the change and I understand the reason behind doing it. That doesn't mean I don't find the whole situation humorous.

What I don't accept is the diminishing depth of survival in this game. I've pointed out before, and I will again. The only reason that TFP was able to come to the conclusion that raw iron to iron is now silly, is because of previous changes that led up to it. The most notable and ridiculous change was that they allowed the scrapping of iron ore into iron with your bare hands to begin with.

 

That is a valid point, however the reason those other changes were implemented is the same reason as this one. This isn't Rimworld or Space Engineers or Subnautica though, and the gameplay loop they are moving towards is a less complex and/or tedious one for a reason - it's not the main drive of the game. Ultimately, this change saves time - time that can be better used to loot, trade, quest, or build. While I greatly appreciate the gameplay loops found in the aforementioned games, there's a reason I and many others are playing 7D2D instead of those other games (No Man's Sky especially - love that game! Haven't bought the others yet, but Subnautica is on my wish list). Giving players more time to do more of the things the game offers - building bases, looting POIs, questing for the trader - makes this a positive move for many. For you, you're going to miss that added step because it gave you a small sense of progression in the larger picture, and that's perfectly valid. That's a gameplay loop you and many others enjoy (myself included), but it's simply not the main gameplay loop being persued in this game. That doesn't mean the game is removing all crafting complexity, nor do I think that will ever happen. It's just being - well, you could say it's being processed or refined into a higher quality. ;)

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Say you wanna upgrade your base, it takes iron to do so, you have raw iron, you can scrap it taking a bunch of time and losing 25% of the value of it, or put it in the forge spending a ton of time to melt it down then have the forge spit it back out which takes even more time. Or you can have it how a18.1 b6 is, and just get the base iron from iron ore nodes which you can then use right away to upgrade the base or to melt down. .

 

Which recipes or upgrade paths require raw iron? I can't think of any. Wooden ladders -> Iron ladders maybe? It's been a while. Genuinely curious.

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Doornobs, brass radiators, candle sticks, lead weights.....what about those. The initial example of iron ore ->processed iron = stone ->cement was an EXAGGERATION, but what about all the other items in the game that are only ment to be processed into useful items.

 

Those things are not in there just to be processed, they are in there to add ambiance to the game and engagement for the player...to make the player feel like they are in the zombie apocalypse. Streamlined or simpler isn't always better, there has to be a balance between efficiency and complexity an it is my opinion that the game is going in the wrong direction.

 

This kinda aligns more with my thoughts.

Over the alphas, they have simplified recipes for things more and more under umbrella statements like, "we don't want multiple ways to craft something", "recipes bog down the UI", "we don't want a wiki to be able to do things". All those statements are logical. I agree... but to an extent. Just like how complexity can go too far, simplicity can too. You end up with undesirable side effects.

 

Example of undesirable side effects. Kill a chicken, get chicken. Kill a pig, get pork. A recipe uses pork and eggs for bacon and eggs. Remove chicken, pork, venison etc and just make it all "meat". Now we make bacon from snakes, chickens, rabbits, you name it. We can play pretend, but in the end it's just sloppy and unprofessional.

 

They went the wrong way with this. Mining should involve some refinement. Instead of eliminating it from iron, they should have added it to the ores that don't have the requirement. It felt good to smelt your iron ore, knowing you were getting the maximum resources out of it... just like how it feels good to smelt a stack a radiators as opposed to scrapping them all. If the step was too basic even with the bonus, then reduce the xp from mining and add a little into smelting.

 

This is similar to if they took out conveyor belts in Factorio and just made it so products teleport from one machine to the other. It has the same result, but it takes away from something.

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Anyway, your point is wrong. Having iron ore in a game where you mine rock to get iron is proven to be factually false, and people who think it's a good idea are objectively wrong about what they like in games.

 

Iron ore->iron seems a bit more realistic to me.

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Iron ore->iron seems a bit more realistic to me.

If the "if you disagree with me you are wrong" argument is an admission that you have no valid arguments left, then changing a person's words to say what they didn't say must be the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "La la la I can't hear you."

 

Argue better.

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Example of undesirable side effects. Kill a chicken, get chicken. Kill a pig, get pork. A recipe uses pork and eggs for bacon and eggs. Remove chicken, pork, venison etc and just make it all "meat". Now we make bacon from snakes, chickens, rabbits, you name it. We can play pretend, but in the end it's just sloppy and unprofessional.

You are right. They should have added quotation marks around "bacon." It's the damn apocalypse. You don't think you are going to make "bacon" and eggs out of whatever meat you have at hand?

 

They went the wrong way with this. Mining should involve some refinement. Instead of eliminating it from iron, they should have added it to the ores that don't have the requirement. It felt good to smelt your iron ore, knowing you were getting the maximum resources out of it... just like how it feels good to smelt a stack a radiators as opposed to scrapping them all. If the step was too basic even with the bonus, then reduce the xp from mining and add a little into smelting.

They also should make you have to come back to the forge and clean out the slag before your metal can be refined. The forge gets gummed up over time and will stop working if you don't clean it. Ah, the satisfaction of realism.

 

To get people fired up, why else?

There's enough idiocy in the world. You want to make more of it? It's why I used the word "butthurt" earlier. If you don't like the moniker, then don't deserve it.

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I'm just surprised by all this "streamlining" of the crafting that is happening alongside the "steel sledgehammer parts are very different than steel fire axe parts, and also forged steel can't be somehow heated up and hammered into a similar shape ether at all".

 

It seems like the dev team might not all be going to the same meetings.

 

Your editing of my post in quote, and missing the point entirely, continues to make me laugh. Thank you for that.

 

Weapon parts exist as a variable to control the pace of gameplay. You can argue it's cludgy, and I certainly would agree, but it's what we have. It's gating for the sake of pace and progression. I don't disagree with the goal, and I don't hate the implementation, although I think there are still tweaks to be made within the existing system in order to better balance it overall.

 

On the note of "simpler" changes and "legacy nonsense", when are the brass faucets/candle sticks/doornobs/radiators and lead weights going to be taken out of the game and replaced with just brass and lead?

 

I wouldn't hate this change in the slightest. Frees up yet more icons (which apparently is a performance thing?), streamlines gameplay and loot tables a bit more, and gives me more time to focus on the things that matter most to me: killing zombies, doing quests, and building bases. I don't hate their existence, but I won't mourn their loss if they go the way of the Dodo. I'd rather find a schematic in the trash than a brass doorknob. ;)

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I get the arguments of "it just doesn't feel right" because that's what it feels like to me. Ya, ya, facts don't care about feelings and you still get the same amount this new way...agreed. However...I really liked the risk/reward aspect of getting iron chunks and losing scrap when scrapping v. smelting. And yes...you can't really use anything from a chunk realistically so scrapping shouldn't even be a thing...I get that too.

 

But I think that pretty much all of the base components we use: wood, iron, lead, brass, rocks...whatever...should have to be refined to make what you need when it comes to complex recipes. And...if you choose to refine them in a backpack...then you get less that if you'd done it in a preferred method (in fact, I always thought you should only get 2 iron from a chunk instead of 3 and let's not talk about using multiples to shoot that number above 3---like how 7 chunks would get you 24 scrap), but this method should still be used to enable crafting of more simpler items.

 

Meh...that's just me...seems logical that if something has been refined already (iron shelves) and you break those down...you should get the already refined material (scrap iron) and it should be a 1:1 smelt. Again...that's just me. I'll take whatever the game gives me but as some have said...it "feels" like something is being taken away even though that's not what's happening. I'm just a voice in The Void though.

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You are right. They should have added quotation marks around "bacon." It's the damn apocalypse. You don't think you are going to make "bacon" and eggs out of whatever meat you have at hand?

 

 

They also should make you have to come back to the forge and clean out the slag before your metal can be refined. The forge gets gummed up over time and will stop working if you don't clean it. Ah, the satisfaction of realism.

 

 

There's enough idiocy in the world. You want to make more of it? It's why I used the word "butthurt" earlier. If you don't like the moniker, then don't deserve it.

 

That's a stretch. Just because some companies out there think it's OK to consider their turkey product bacon, doesn't mean it is. Bacon is bacon, you can't tell any bacon lover otherwise.

 

The argument of displaying how bad the addition of some hypothetical, boring steps into a system is equivalent to the exaggerating arguments you claim to be butthurt reactions (such as stone -> concrete)

 

I wouldn't so much call it something I do to increase idiocy, but more so to point out that people who use the word "butthurt" are typically those who are feeling more emotional about some subject than those accused of being butthurt.

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That's a stretch. Just because some companies out there think it's OK to consider their turkey product bacon, doesn't mean it is. Bacon is bacon, you can't tell any bacon lover otherwise.

It's the apocalypse, and a TFP apocalypse at that. It's wholly in line with "Sham Chowder." Of course it isn't real bacon, and nobody is claiming otherwise. Even when civilization breaks down, humans will continue to use some of the words and references from before to refer to things which are not quite the same anymore.

 

The argument of displaying how bad the addition of some hypothetical, boring steps into a system is equivalent to the exaggerating arguments you claim to be butthurt reactions (such as stone -> concrete)

Why don't you walk me through how those are equivalent? It isn't like I compressed an entire process down to nothing. I added one additional step which makes sense according to realism.

 

I wouldn't so much call it something I do to increase idiocy, but more so to point out that people who use the word "butthurt" are typically those who are feeling more emotional about some subject than those accused of being butthurt.

Yeah, "it's the end of the world and TFP are destroying the game that I know and love" isn't emotional at all. ;)

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Someone started this topic with concerns over the change and to express their dislike for it. I am expressing that I understand the change, because on its own, it is very logical and reasonable. I think the simplification trend is going too far, so in some way, sure you could say I am against this change.

I came in here to express that. Over the past few alphas, some people have been complaining that the game is starting to lean too much towards a looter/shooter. I've always been all right with that. Add more content to make it more looter/shooter... but don't take away from crafting, mining, survival, horde defense, and just about every other aspect in this game that I and so many people enjoy. I'm looking at the bigger picture, and my contribution to this thread is to express my opinion that the trend has gone far enough.

 

However, some people come in here, and threads like these, just to be condescending and use derogatory terminology against people with opinions that do not align with their own. If these people already have what they want, why the need to act in such an aggressive way? It is equivalent to in real life pointing and laughing in someone's face because you got your way and they didn't. "Oh, you lost your smelting, you gonna cry? You a little baby, gonna cry over an icon?" It's disgraceful.

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The irony in your statement is killing me. Thanks for the chuckle.

 

The irony? I haven't even made up my mind one way or the other. I haven't even played A18 yet. But reading arguments for and against I can't help but think that the side that's against the change is more *reasonable* as they rarely rely on "you are wrong" argument and instead provide, you know, *reasons* for not liking the change.

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They went the wrong way with this. Mining should involve some refinement.

Yes, mining does involve refinement if you want to do anything useful.

You need iron/steel bars to craft anything interesting.

 

You can not build with rebar / or freshly mined iron because... both types of frames are only made in a forge.

 

There you go. Problem solved. =P

 

 

Also: Page 9? That's awesome. Oh, the good old days when wood was made more granular and players would lose their ♥♥♥♥ over the no-change. =P

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