Roland Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I'm flabbergasted. Of course making it public is the best idea...if it exists. It would for one thing help some of us determine if it's worth sticking with the game or not - something I ask myself with each passing alpha - the idea of Bandits....jeez....no thanks. And for another it will help attract new players. New players love to see a roadmap for Early Access games and it helps encourage them to part with cash for EA titles. I know when I am on the fence about buying an EA game - especially one with only average reviews like this - a roadmap is often what makes me take the plunge. Or perhaps more accurately, the lack of one makes me pass. It does exist and there is a public version. It is called the kickstarter goals and stretch goals. Please don't feel obligated to stick with us. If you aren't having fun go play a game that is fun for you. You can always re-install and try it out once it is done. Bandits have been listed on the public version of the roadmap available for viewing now for 6 years so I'm flabbergasted you even bought the game in the first place given your policy. btw-- this current version that you personally dislike so much is the most popular version yet with much better than average ratings and so far great staying power. It seems people keep playing week after week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 You come across as really bitter here. I don't see what a call for transparency and communication as a bulwark against unneeded drama has to do with sacred cows. The messianic exaggeration is likewise totally uncalled for. I used the term worshipped figuratively in an attempt to communicate how valued Bex is by the community, not for you to take it to the level of the absurd. This is exactly why a Community Manager would be helpful. To diffuse this atmosphere between TFP employees and players that is condescending at best and toxic at worst and to let people focus on the jobs they're actually there for - to keep the devs developing and the mods keeping the forums clean. Not bitter at all My comment about sacred cows was due to your reaction to my joke about community managers sugar coating the truth to make it easier to swallow and not about your original use of the word worship. You went into triggered defense mode of this person and that is why I brought it up. A sacred cow is an expression to describe an idea or a person that is too beloved for someone to be able to stand for it or them to be mocked. This Bex figure means nothing to me but obviously is important to you. I'm not against a community manager. It would be great to have someone create prepared statements and explanations and say, "I don't know but I'll check with the team and get back to you" a lot. Sounds like Clare used to. She was great at doing what you describe. Maybe I should put a What Would Clare Do sticky note on my computer screen. I'll try it for a week and see if it sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Why did you think it was such a bad idea? And please explain WHY it seems TFP are so resistant to criticism. And dont deflect with the usual "No they arent they take criticism head on and apply where applicable" responses. Your reasons for why a roadmap is not posted or why experimental branches are not often posted up is because of the backlash they would get from changes. That is literally a part of Early Access. So Pimps want the privacy of a closed beta with the benefits of selling copies in Early Access? And if a section of people do not like a particular thing then well take your ball and go home? If anything some of the responses made here by officials and higher ups only prove why we need a community manager like a Bex. You guys sit around and circle jerk about how great you are to your players, and how open devs are to peoples opinions. But look around you. Look at devs from dozens of other games. And I am not talking AAA because Pimps are NOT AAA they are as indie as other EA teams on Steam etc. Look at Factorio, Zomboid etc. Those devs have WEEKLY newsletters detailing changes and builds, they interact on multiple platforms including reddit and discord and GASP steam too. But whenever an unpopular opinion comes up all we get as a community is 'you better be lucky we interact" or "thats it im going dark see you" WTF is that? You're not Rockstar Games. Stop treating your community like they need to worship everything lest we be punished with cut off communications. Its the exact opposite of good PR. All it creates is more hostility. And if its decided they no longer wish to communicate due to community reaction thats ok, it IS their choice. But those same people will remember that when the next game comes out, just like they will remember that what they bought into is slowly turning into not what it was at first. That leaves a taste, and people remember. Who is to say they announce a western zombie game and then 5 years later it turns into a space bounty hunter game on a whim? Its a realistic possibility since the base game has undergone a complete facelift from what people bought into years ago. You do things like ask for evidence or say prove it and when people do that you brush it off as out of context. It is not out of context. Hes an owner, stating he regrets the direction they took. Who is making decisions to this day to streamline mechanics. It is VERY relevant how he feels here. We probably could do better in that regard. I'll bring it up with the team and get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 btw-- this current version that you personally dislike so much is the most popular version yet with much better than average ratings and so far great staying power. It seems people keep playing week after week. Madmole wants to put in a version that has static terrain. He knows it's going to perform better. In some future alpha where this is placed, an alpha that will have more sales than the current one because that's the trend, a crap ton of people running potatoes are going to be playing that mode. In turn, madmole will say, see... I told you, people like this better. Look how popular this alpha is with record 50k playing at the moment. We are are just going to move into that now and we'll bring voxels back some day when we figure out how to improve the performance. ... like has happened with several things. Caves, textures removed from paint, some terrain blocks removed, zombies with variety, world zombie counts, wandering horde sizes, probably more. I'm sure others could list a lot more. All these things were to be brought back some day. A year or two later, when half of the people playing the affected alphas have moved on, and those few remaining loyal fans bring up these features, it's time to mention that things will not be coming back. Sorry, not on the roadmap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Madmole wants to put in a version that has static terrain. He knows it's going to perform better. In some future alpha where this is placed, an alpha that will have more sales than the current one because that's the trend, a crap ton of people running potatoes are going to be playing that mode. In turn, madmole will say, see... I told you, people like this better. Look how popular this alpha is with record 50k playing at the moment. We are are just going to move into that now and we'll bring voxels back some day when we figure out how to improve the performance. ... like has happened with several things. Caves, textures removed from paint, some terrain blocks removed, zombies with variety, world zombie counts, wandering horde sizes, probably more. I'm sure others could list a lot more. All these things were to be brought back some day. A year or two later, when half of the people playing the affected alphas have moved on, and those few remaining loyal fans bring up these features, it's time to mention that things will not be coming back. Sorry, not on the roadmap. That’s an interesting bit of speculation. I’ll talk to the team and see what they say. Thanks for your feedback. It tells us that there is some worry about the future of voxels so I’ll see what I can report about that after I get the the word from the guys. EDIT: To get back to you on this after texting Rick and Joel I can assure you that Voxel technology for the game is going nowhere. Both Rick and Joel stated that it would be crazy to change something that significant at this point. They are fully committed to voxels and in fact have just completed another overhaul to the random world generation for A18 which shows that commitment. Even if they personally feel at times frustrated by the difficulty voxels present, they will not abandon them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 That’s an interesting bit of speculation. I’ll talk to the team and see what they say. Thanks for your feedback. It tells us that there is some worry about the future of voxels so I’ll see what I can report about that after I get the the word from the guys. Thank you, Roland. That would be great. If I could go back and just remove all my posts on the subject and just post my previous, I would. They do serve the purpose of illustrating how these thoughts have come to fruition, but this is what everything boils down to I think... the source of anger, frustration, even conspiracy theories. It was just difficult to sort my thoughts on the whole thing and identify what exactly is triggering all this. At least for me. I can't speak for everyone upset in this thread, but I will guess that for the majority, the disbelief and source of negativity is similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morloc Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 That’s an interesting bit of speculation. I’ll talk to the team and see what they say. Thanks for your feedback. It tells us that there is some worry about the future of voxels so I’ll see what I can report about that after I get the the word from the guys. -Morloc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marinxar Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I get why people react this way. My first reaction was the same. Ahhh ******, they gone and removed another time old process in the crafting system....and yes, it's all it was. Something that is a required and vital step in processing metals in RL, but in a fantasy game served no real purpose, aside from that cling to a normal established progression of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Such as? And please don't say the removal of raw iron. That ought not have been unexpected, nor is it by any stretch stupid. I gave an example in the sentence right before the one you quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I gave an example in the sentence right before the one you quoted. Yeah, well, I can't argue with that one. I've re-modded my wandering hordes to be much larger than default. I wish this thread had been about that, not the removal of a completely redundant icon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisma501 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Useless step removed. Balanced. No tears from me. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Flavour and (a little) crafting depth removed. Still no tears from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 It does exist and there is a public version. It is called the kickstarter goals and stretch goals. That's dumb. Put it where it belongs....on Steam (where I assume most people bought and will buy the game). Please don't feel obligated to stick with us. Where did I say I felt obligated? Just another bitter sarcastic comment we've come to expect from you? Why not suggest I don't let the door hit me on the way out while you're at it? If you aren't having fun go play a game that is fun for you. You think? Thing is I am having fun but I used to have more fun. Any criticism is because I care about the game. I'm flabbergasted you even bought the game in the first place given your policy. I didn't. It was gifted to me on Steam by the group I ended up playing with. We are big survival game fans. this current version that you personally dislike so much is the most popular version yet with much better than average ratings and so far great staying power. It seems people keep playing week after week. Doesn't mean they think it's the best version. I too am playing week after week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeraal Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 The removal of ore is, for me, the latest example of over streamlining. Older versions had more robust crafting, some might say overstuffed. Now, some see it as streamlined, while I see it as anorexic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychodabble Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Not bitter at all My comment about sacred cows was due to your reaction to my joke about community managers sugar coating the truth to make it easier to swallow and not about your original use of the word worship. You went into triggered defense mode of this person and that is why I brought it up. A sacred cow is an expression to describe an idea or a person that is too beloved for someone to be able to stand for it or them to be mocked. This Bex figure means nothing to me but obviously is important to you. I'm not against a community manager. It would be great to have someone create prepared statements and explanations and say, "I don't know but I'll check with the team and get back to you" a lot. Sounds like Clare used to. She was great at doing what you describe. Maybe I should put a What Would Clare Do sticky note on my computer screen. I'll try it for a week and see if it sticks. Yes, it's all just hilarious. You know the really funny thing? When you say stuff like that and actually mean it, then follow up on it and keep people updated regardless of the speed of progress, people appreciate it and respect you for it. It also leads to a better product and atmosphere in the community. But you just keep yukking it up. It's all a joke anyway, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locusta Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @Roland WOW! Seriously? Snarky comments and sarcastic remarks? I posted an honest and diplomatic post for you and you completely ♥♥♥♥ all over it. I take back my compliments to you. I’ve lost pretty much all respect. Firstly, don’t use Kickstarter in any reference to a roadmap. Madmole has said many times that he considers that finished, so honestly, it means nothing anymore. You can’t pick and choose when it’s relevant. Secondly, your actions speak volumes about how you guys treat your community. None of you can take criticism and basically act like children when things get heated. Super unprofessional. Thirdly, the only reason the game has positive reviews is because MM begged for them. Let’s be honest. I’ve tried to be positive and give honest criticism and feedback, but obviously it’s not worth it to you. You guys don’t want to hear it. Maybe I’ll pack up my ♥♥♥♥ and “go dark”. Seems like the cowardly thing to do. Loc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisma501 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @Roland WOW! Seriously? Snarky comments and sarcastic remarks? I posted an honest and diplomatic post for you and you completely ♥♥♥♥ all over it. I take back my compliments to you. I’ve lost pretty much all respect. Firstly, don’t use Kickstarter in any reference to a roadmap. Madmole has said many times that he considers that finished, so honestly, it means nothing anymore. You can’t pick and choose when it’s relevant. Secondly, your actions speak volumes about how you guys treat your community. None of you can take criticism and basically act like children when things get heated. Super unprofessional. Thirdly, the only reason the game has positive reviews is because MM begged for them. Let’s be honest. I’ve tried to be positive and give honest criticism and feedback, but obviously it’s not worth it to you. You guys don’t want to hear it. Maybe I’ll pack up my ♥♥♥♥ and “go dark”. Seems like the cowardly thing to do. Loc Talking about that same community that cant take no for an answer? And keeps on ♥♥♥♥ting on things the devs have said multiple times wont change again? Always the same ♥♥♥♥. Ranting bout a change. Then go into but im only critisizing because i care about the game bullsh*t mode. It goes 2 ways my friend and a roadmap wont solve that problem. It will only lead to more ♥♥♥♥ and less flexibility for the devs to go and adventure in creativity. Just take a look at some whatabout post of madmole. Taking for promisis by the same peepz that then come and "critisize" on how TFP breaks promises. Care about the game my a$$. Just full of fekking negativity and just waiting to let it all out again on some minor chance no1 should even care about. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @Roland WOW! Seriously? Snarky comments and sarcastic remarks? I posted an honest and diplomatic post for you and you completely ♥♥♥♥ all over it. I take back my compliments to you. I’ve lost pretty much all respect. Firstly, don’t use Kickstarter in any reference to a roadmap. Madmole has said many times that he considers that finished, so honestly, it means nothing anymore. You can’t pick and choose when it’s relevant. Secondly, your actions speak volumes about how you guys treat your community. None of you can take criticism and basically act like children when things get heated. Super unprofessional. Thirdly, the only reason the game has positive reviews is because MM begged for them. Let’s be honest. I’ve tried to be positive and give honest criticism and feedback, but obviously it’s not worth it to you. You guys don’t want to hear it. Maybe I’ll pack up my ♥♥♥♥ and “go dark”. Seems like the cowardly thing to do. Loc Dont worry. Im sure its being discussed with the team. We will get a response once they know something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 It goes 2 ways my friend and a roadmap wont solve that problem. It will only lead to more ♥♥♥♥ and less flexibility for the devs to go and adventure in creativity. Cheers How many years do you want this game to be in Alpha? I never thought i would EVER be in the camp of "Lets just finish this already" but Im nearing there. Creativity? They changed the foundation of the game from 16-18. I think the time for creativity was over several Alphas ago. Now is the time to take this into the final lap. Get the bugs cleared, polish it up. Finish systems like RWG. At some point there needs to be a release. Maybe not this year but surely we should be headed in that direction by now? I dont think this game can handle ANOTHER creative Alpha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locusta Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Dont worry. Im sure its being discussed with the team. We will get a response once they know something. I'm not worried. At the end of the day they need us more than we need them. Thanks though Jax. Loc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Thank you, Roland. That would be great. If I could go back and just remove all my posts on the subject and just post my previous, I would. They do serve the purpose of illustrating how these thoughts have come to fruition, but this is what everything boils down to I think... the source of anger, frustration, even conspiracy theories. It was just difficult to sort my thoughts on the whole thing and identify what exactly is triggering all this. At least for me. I can't speak for everyone upset in this thread, but I will guess that for the majority, the disbelief and source of negativity is similar. To get back to you on this after texting Rick and Joel, I can assure you that Voxel technology for the game is going nowhere. Both Rick and Joel stated that it would be crazy to change something that significant at this point. They are fully committed to voxels and in fact have just completed another overhaul to the random world generation for A18 which shows that commitment. Even if they personally feel at times frustrated by the difficulty voxels present, they will not abandon them. Randomly generated caves are definitely out but that is because they feel they have to be able to guarantee a world that generates properly and doesn't cause rips or instances of falling out of the world or structural integrity issues for prefab POI's and they never were able to get caves to that level and don't see that happening with current tech. The cutting of procedurally generated caves is not, however, a step towards getting rid of voxels at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @Roland WOW! Seriously? Snarky comments and sarcastic remarks? I posted an honest and diplomatic post for you and you completely ♥♥♥♥ all over it. I take back my compliments to you. I’ve lost pretty much all respect. Firstly, don’t use Kickstarter in any reference to a roadmap. Madmole has said many times that he considers that finished, so honestly, it means nothing anymore. You can’t pick and choose when it’s relevant. Secondly, your actions speak volumes about how you guys treat your community. None of you can take criticism and basically act like children when things get heated. Super unprofessional. Thirdly, the only reason the game has positive reviews is because MM begged for them. Let’s be honest. I’ve tried to be positive and give honest criticism and feedback, but obviously it’s not worth it to you. You guys don’t want to hear it. Maybe I’ll pack up my ♥♥♥♥ and “go dark”. Seems like the cowardly thing to do. Loc I don't know what you're talking about. I couldn't remember being snarky and sarcastic to your diplomatic and honest post so I went back and checked and because your post was honest and diplomatic my response to you was serious and straightforward. I read every response I made to you 2-3 times to try and wring a drop of snark or sarcasm out of it and didn't get anything. Sorry you took it that way but I'm honestly baffled. The only people I get a bit snarky with are those who jump into the hyperbole pool and splash wild accusations and conspiracy theories at everyone and start using language that is insulting first. To those people who ask genuine questions and make suggestions in a respectful and constructive way I always strive to be polite and straight with them. Please show me where you think I was sarcastic to you, Loc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 sarcas-o-meter False positive. I was actually being serious. I'm willing to give it a try. But I can see how it would be taken that way...lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisma501 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 How many years do you want this game to be in Alpha? I never thought i would EVER be in the camp of "Lets just finish this already" but Im nearing there. Creativity? They changed the foundation of the game from 16-18. I think the time for creativity was over several Alphas ago. Now is the time to take this into the final lap. Get the bugs cleared, polish it up. Finish systems like RWG. At some point there needs to be a release. Maybe not this year but surely we should be headed in that direction by now? I dont think this game can handle ANOTHER creative Alpha. I really really dont care if its in alpha for more years. And all fine what you think the Pimps shouldnt or should do. I see it as an opinion but nothing more than that. You dont get to decide when the creativity stops or how long the alpha lasts. So to wrap it up: They should do whatever they want to do. For all i care they change the foundation again. Not my call. And not yours. For anybody thinking it takes too long, just come back when gold hits or accept the way Pimps do their shizzle. Including not giving any roadmaps out in public. Cheers - - - Updated - - - I'm not worried. At the end of the day they need us more than we need them. Thanks though Jax. Loc Omg...you truly think you re that important?! Giggles. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locusta Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I don't know what you're talking about. I couldn't remember being snarky and sarcastic to your diplomatic and honest post so I went back and checked and because your post was honest and diplomatic my response to you was serious and straightforward. I read every response I made to you 2-3 times to try and wring a drop of snark or sarcasm out of it and didn't get anything. Sorry you took it that way but I'm honestly baffled. The only people I get a bit snarky with are those who jump into the hyperbole pool and splash wild accusations and conspiracy theories at everyone and start using language that is insulting first. To those people who ask genuine questions and make suggestions in a respectful and constructive way I always strive to be polite and straight with them. Please show me where you think I was sarcastic to you, Loc. Just because you’re responses weren’t directed at me doesn’t mean I can’t take offence to them. Others shared similar opinions as me so I consider us as one voice. It’s fine. I’m not going to dwell on any of this. It’s not worth my time and energy and is honestly becoming more of a headache than anything. Loc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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