Another "direction of the game thread" and iam concerned...

[SonicSonedit]

You all competent modders are a large factor to the game's success I think.

(especially now when the core game is weaker)

The game had a good core and the modders pushed it to it's max.

Now the core is more of a ...rotten one for a bunch of people and modders are slowly making it better one modlet at the time.

 

I just really , really hope the modders will stick with the game until release, I have seen so many good mods for other Early access titles getting sick and tired of the game before it got gold, and abandoning those mods

 

Agreed with everything you said here. We really need a one good model for A18. Or mabe wait for next alphas. They promised us some sort of stable platform? Not so sure now.

[Laz Man]

The blade traps and electric fences seem sufficient to kill everything except the demolishers on their own; so you can turn the dart traps off and on as and when you need them. Shotgun turrets could be used for normal zeds as well and turned off if and when the Demolishers arrive. Neither use much Iron.

 

Kage's current build seems to be great for saving ammo, but at the cost of using a lot of Iron - but you could improve on it by making more use of auto turrets and a sledgehammer (He's fists, so couldn't really contribute much melee - but almost any other melee weapon might have reached, and the sledge and spear definitely would have).

 

He also didn't use any spikes or barbed wire at all - but if you can work them in without making the zed's path change then that'd help a lot too.

 

I'm still trying out a few other builds in the meantime - but that base looks fairly solid for <gamestage 200 - even if it only serves to save you time and resources to get ready for later hordes; it's not exactly cheap, but it cost a fraction of his 'fallback' base behind it; in terms of concrete and iron/steel use for the actual building.

 

Funny that you mention the on/off idea. I have that exact setup with my electrical grid (switches). Allows me a greater amount of control to conserve resources/repairs. 😎

 

Edit: My next change for my day 56 horde is to have a 3 switches setup.

 

1) electric posts

2) auto turrets

3) dart traps

 

My plan is to flip flop those switches as needed, especially when reloading my junk turrets. 😎

[Ghostlight]

Go check out the video - ramp leading up, electric fences across beneath them - looks like they CAN set them off, but not consistently; and can kill them with just the blades and darts - but he's using AP M60 to kill em with a few rounds when they are triggered

 

Hang on, in my experience they still explode even if they die after being triggered. Has it changed?

[Laz Man]

Hang on, in my experience they still explode even if they die after being triggered. Has it changed?

 

I've always heard/seen that demos dont blow up if you can kill them fast enough. (After trigger)

[RipClaw]

The blade traps and electric fences seem sufficient to kill everything except the demolishers on their own; so you can turn the dart traps off and on as and when you need them. Shotgun turrets could be used for normal zeds as well and turned off if and when the Demolishers arrive. Neither use much Iron.

 

Kage's current build seems to be great for saving ammo, but at the cost of using a lot of Iron - but you could improve on it by making more use of auto turrets and a sledgehammer (He's fists, so couldn't really contribute much melee - but almost any other melee weapon might have reached, and the sledge and spear definitely would have).

 

He also didn't use any spikes or barbed wire at all - but if you can work them in without making the zed's path change then that'd help a lot too.

 

I'm still trying out a few other builds in the meantime - but that base looks fairly solid for <gamestage 200 - even if it only serves to save you time and resources to get ready for later hordes; it's not exactly cheap, but it cost a fraction of his 'fallback' base behind it; in terms of concrete and iron/steel use for the actual building.

 

I've been watching the latest horde of video from Kage. He has set the number of zombies to 10 or 12 at the same time. I have set this to 32 zombies simultaneously. That's a big difference.

 

I know the base design Kage uses from a video by Vedui. It works well as long as you haven't too many zombies simultaneously or a demolishers explodes right in front of you. By the way, a demolisher exploded near the end of the horde and destroyed the two blade traps.

 

Of course it's bad if you can't replace the blade traps during the horde. Kage's plan to do this is unfortunately not feasible as the zombies will prevent him from placing a new blade trap. He would have to build an entrance that can be closed so the zombies can be temporarily locked out until he has done the repair. Here is an example of how to do this:

 

 

An example of a base that works grenades and pipe bombs and also withstands bigger horde and late game horde is this one:

 

 

You just have to be careful not to accidentally blow yourself up.

[DeadGerry]

snipped for length - ooh matron!

 

As I said, it's a solid beginning - but more development to work. If you choose to make the horde harder than that's your call - but I would; in a friendly manner - point out that turning up the difficulty and then trying to find a way to make it easier is a little counter intuitive; but each to their own

 

If he had back up blade traps it would have been solvable then and there, or a further fall back level behind it - it was bad luck the demolisher exploded as he let himself get distracted killing vultures on the roof and chose the non AP gun to try and kill it - had he the right gun out it would have been dead; and had he auto turrets on the roof the vultures would not have distracted him. The closed exit is a great idea; and a drawbridge or one of those fronts facing in opposite directions to move to - or activate-able turrets on the front to give a break to plant new blade traps would work too - like i said; it was a solid 'start' 0 but work to be done.

 

But for a decent game stage horde, barring the distractions and accidents it served very well indeed - much better than I thought it would for very little ammo cost.

[RipClaw]

As I said, it's a solid beginning - but more development to work. If you choose to make the horde harder than that's your call - but I would; in a friendly manner - point out that turning up the difficulty and then trying to find a way to make it easier is a little counter intuitive; but each to their own

 

I didn't set the 32 zombies because of the difficulty, but because it makes my base more efficient.

Dart traps just fire straight ahead and it's more likely that the dart trap will hit something if you have more zombies at the same time.

 

It's the same with grenades and pipe bombs. You have more zombies in the explosion radius. So you get more dead zombies per explosion. The total number of zombies in the horde is defined by gamestage and therefore does not differ from the default setting. The horde will only end faster if you can kill more zombies at the same time.

[Ghostlight]

An example of a base that works grenades and pipe bombs and also withstands bigger horde and late game horde is this one:

 

 

You just have to be careful not to accidentally blow yourself up.

 

Well yeah, but that base exploits the A17 AI, so it's not what many of us are looking for. It exploits the fact that zombies see a 2 block gap to the player and try to jump it even if there is a block or other obstacle preventing them from making it across, which causes them to fall instead to wherever the player wants them to be. Exact same principle as an infinite ramp. If I was prepared to exploit the AI like that I could do it with a far less elaborate base than this one.

 

And as exploits of the AI go, this is the most blatant one and thus the one most likely to get fixed (if TFP ever decide they want to reward creativity over exploits).

[RipClaw]

Well yeah, but that base exploits the A17 AI, so it's not what many of us are looking for. It exploits the fact that zombies see a 2 block gap to the player and try to jump it even if there is a block or other obstacle preventing them from making it across, which causes them to fall instead to wherever the player wants them to be. Exact same principle as an infinite ramp. If I was prepared to exploit the AI like that I could do it with a far less elaborate base than this one.

 

And as exploits of the AI go, this is the most blatant one and thus the one most likely to get fixed (if TFP ever decide they want to reward creativity over exploits).

 

And what do you think about this base design regarding exploiting the AI?

 

[DeadGerry]

I didn't set the 32 zombies because of the difficulty, but because it makes my base more efficient.

Dart traps just fire straight ahead and it's more likely that the dart trap will hit something if you have more zombies at the same time.

 

It's the same with grenades and pipe bombs. You have more zombies in the explosion radius. So you get more dead zombies per explosion. The total number of zombies in the horde is defined by gamestage and therefore does not differ from the default setting. The horde will only end faster if you can kill more zombies at the same time.

 

I see the logic, but I would venture to mention that there are other variables - whether or not you kill the vultures has an effect; and how long your night is has an effect - the horde ends at daybreak, whether they all spawned or not - having more at a time makes it more likely you'll end the horde by killing the full pool, rather than surviving until daybreak.

 

Not a criticism, just an observation - but killing more zeds drives up the game stage faster and increases the number of demolishers you'll get and seems to me rather becomes a self-magnifying problem for anyone looking for solutions to demolishers.

[Ghostlight]

Not a criticism, just an observation - but killing more zeds drives up the game stage faster and increases the number of demolishers you'll get and seems to me rather becomes a self-magnifying problem for anyone looking for solutions to demolishers.

 

Taken to its logical conclusion. Complete non-engagement with the horde and killing NONE of them is the best solution. No Demolishers will come. No XP gain, so gamestage does not rise.

 

It's come to this. A zombie apocalypse game where 99% of the time there are no freaking zombies, and on the 1% of the time when there are hundreds of zombies, the best bet is to avoid them completely. Go gameplay.....GO!!!

 

I can't play like that.

[RipClaw]

Not a criticism, just an observation - but killing more zeds drives up the game stage faster and increases the number of demolishers you'll get and seems to me rather becomes a self-magnifying problem for anyone looking for solutions to demolishers.

 

Compared to mining, the XP gain from the horde is rather low. In addition, it would only delay the problem but not solve it.

 

I see only two ways at the moment. One is to use a lot of resources to kill the demolishers in a safe way and the second is to let them explode where the damage is not critical.

[Laz Man]

I've been watching the latest horde of video from Kage. He has set the number of zombies to 10 or 12 at the same time. I have set this to 32 zombies simultaneously. That's a big difference.

 

I know the base design Kage uses from a video by Vedui. It works well as long as you haven't too many zombies simultaneously or a demolishers explodes right in front of you. By the way, a demolisher exploded near the end of the horde and destroyed the two blade traps.

 

Of course it's bad if you can't replace the blade traps during the horde. Kage's plan to do this is unfortunately not feasible as the zombies will prevent him from placing a new blade trap. He would have to build an entrance that can be closed so the zombies can be temporarily locked out until he has done the repair. Here is an example of how to do this:

 

 

An example of a base that works grenades and pipe bombs and also withstands bigger horde and late game horde is this one:

 

 

You just have to be careful not to accidentally blow yourself up.

 

Grand Spartans workflow is key there. He throws in enough explosives in so that when he detonates them it's enough to one shot anything from the looks of it. Very cool implementation.

[Laz Man]

I didn't set the 32 zombies because of the difficulty, but because it makes my base more efficient.

Dart traps just fire straight ahead and it's more likely that the dart trap will hit something if you have more zombies at the same time.

 

It's the same with grenades and pipe bombs. You have more zombies in the explosion radius. So you get more dead zombies per explosion. The total number of zombies in the horde is defined by gamestage and therefore does not differ from the default setting. The horde will only end faster if you can kill more zombies at the same time.

 

Seems like the trade off is not worth it imo. You can achieve the same benefit from funneling your zombies if you want them lined up with dart traps.

 

Now if your base design is crushing it definitely start increasing the setting to make it more challenging. For example, my initial base I started with 8 alive. Now my setting is on 16 alive since my design has become that much more efficient.

[Laz Man]

Well yeah, but that base exploits the A17 AI, so it's not what many of us are looking for. It exploits the fact that zombies see a 2 block gap to the player and try to jump it even if there is a block or other obstacle preventing them from making it across, which causes them to fall instead to wherever the player wants them to be. Exact same principle as an infinite ramp. If I was prepared to exploit the AI like that I could do it with a far less elaborate base than this one.

 

And as exploits of the AI go, this is the most blatant one and thus the one most likely to get fixed (if TFP ever decide they want to reward creativity over exploits).

 

It's a little bit cheesy but it's not over the top for my taste. The darts, electric fencing, reinforced blocks in pit and active explosive usage equates to a good balance of effort imo.

 

Vs a super cheesy base where the zombies loop in a circle with minimal effort from player...

 

Edit: One question, what usage of the AI is not considered an exploit to you? I'd argue every base is an attempt to deal with the zombie AI. What is acceptable vs not will be very subjective.

[DeadGerry]

Taken to its logical conclusion. Complete non-engagement with the horde and killing NONE of them is the best solution. No Demolishers will come. No XP gain, so gamestage does not rise.

 

It's come to this. A zombie apocalypse game where 99% of the time there are no freaking zombies, and on the 1% of the time when there are hundreds of zombies, the best bet is to avoid them completely. Go gameplay.....GO!!!

 

I can't play like that.

 

Come on man, you're KILLING me.

 

Take it to whatever extreme you want, but what was being discussed was 'here is a solid base front which may prove a useful starting point', and if you up the number of Zeds from default you make it harder and face more demolishers, and more at a time.

 

Thats a nice spectrum of choices there - but why you feel it is 'fight 32 at a time or else don't kill any' is a bit over the top.

 

The base design is fine for 8,10, 12 probably 16 at a time, on default or 1 above difficulty, up to gamestage 200. Beyond that it'll need tweaking. MULTIPLE suggestions for how that tweaking might go were made. If a player decides to up the zeds or difficulty then that's fine; but seriously man, are you actually wanting to turn UP the difficulty while simultanaeously demanding a base that will kill them all for you cheaply? Cos that's just silly.

 

By the time you're hitting game stage 200 you're not gonna be killing the whole horde unless you've REALLY decided to kill 'em all - and you can; but it will mean more demolishers next time. Cool with that? Fine. Not cool with that? Fine - but please stop this dramatic flailing from one extreme to the other;

 

Demolishers are OP

This base is OP

the balance can be shifted either direction by various gameplay options or player actions. Isn't that good enough to be getting on with?

 

The LOGICAL conclusion is that you can fight a whole horde night either killing them all or not; but whichever you decide to do has consequences - and its up to each player what decision they make - and therefore what experience they have.

 

Come on!

[Ghostlight]

It's a little bit cheesy but it's not over the top for my taste. The darts, electric fencing, reinforced blocks in pit and active explosive usage equates to a good balance of effort imo.

 

Vs a super cheesy base where the zombies loop in a circle with minimal effort from player...

 

This is the same cheese that makes zombies loop in a circle but instead of the infinite loop, he is allowing them to fall into his kill pit and then raining explosives down in there after them. If he removed that kill pit, they would simply walk back round and climb his pyramid again, forever.

 

Edit: One question, what usage of the AI is not considered an exploit to you? I'd argue every base is an attempt to deal with the zombie AI. What is acceptable vs not will be very subjective.

 

The only thing I consider an exploit is anything that utilizes the specific AI changes made in A17. In this case, zombies see a 2-block gap between them and the player as jump-able, regardless of what is actually blocking where they would land (which actually makes the jump impossible). It's the gap between the tip of his pyramid and the tower where he stands. There is a block in the way that makes it impossible for zombies to make the jump, but they will still go for it and just fall straight down. No matter where they are they will always head for that gap, hence easy infinite loop.

[Ghostlight]

The base design is fine for 8,10, 12 probably 16 at a time, on default or 1 above difficulty, up to gamestage 200. Beyond that it'll need tweaking.

 

If you are talking about Kage's base, I never looked at it nor commented on it. I was purely talking about the other base linked above which will easily handle any horde of any gamestage, and uses an AI exploit to do it. It doesn't care about Demolishers because it ensures they explode in a place he doesn't care about - a small kill box made of 2 layers of Steel.

 

but seriously man, are you actually wanting to turn UP the difficulty while simultaneously demanding a base that will kill them all for you cheaply? Cos that's just silly.

 

Er.....That is EXACTLY what I am trying to achieve. That's the Holy Grail. That's the whole point for me and my group - perfect the base design till we can kill any strength of horde with minimal expense of ammo and repairs. That's the very crux of 7 Days to Die!!!!

 

The problem is simply that Demolishers take so many options off the table for players trying to achieve this Holy Grail that the fun is removed. Their design simply narrows the options down to either massive expense in ammo/repairs, exploit or non-engagement.

 

By the time you're hitting game stage 200 you're not gonna be killing the whole horde unless you've REALLY decided to kill 'em all - and you can; but it will mean more demolishers next time. Cool with that?

 

Absolutely cool with that. IFF Demolishers were a well designed enemy that allowed us to remain creative in dealing with them.

 

please stop this dramatic flailing from one extreme to the other

 

Which extremes?

[Kalen]

 

Er.....That is EXACTLY what I am trying to achieve. That's the Holy Grail. That's the whole point for me and my group - perfect the base design till we can kill any strength of horde with minimal expense of ammo and repairs. That's the very crux of 7 Days to Die!!!!

 

 

Maybe thats the point of demolishers.... maybe higher difficulties are meant for people that don't want any style of base to accomplish what you are asking for.

[JaxTeller718]

Er.....That is EXACTLY what I am trying to achieve. That's the Holy Grail. That's the whole point for me and my group - perfect the base design till we can kill any strength of horde with minimal expense of ammo and repairs. That's the very crux of 7 Days to Die!!!!

 

Ive stayed away from commenting here because all of you are making good points but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that that is YOUR crux of 7 days. I think devs have made it very clear that, maybe at one point in earlier alphas, this was the goal but this is no longer what they want for their game.

 

They want you to use a combination of traps and interaction. Its been said plenty of times if you do not want to engage in hordes run away in a vehicle or turn them off, but Im pretty sure this is now being designed so that defending your base and killing the horde through both interacting and design is the new normal.

 

Where this conversation goes in circles the past few pages is that you are looking for a way to avoid fighting hordes, and people are showing you just that, but you dont like the terms of it. I think its simply because there does not exist a way to do what you are seeking because its no longer intended after a certain point.

 

Add to the fact you are playing on a higher difficulty but wanting LESS confrontation. Thats not what people who play on nightmare are looking to do. They bump difficulty because the game becomes easier. You're playing on it but then saying..... its too hard?

[theFlu]

They want you to use a combination of traps and interaction.

Yes, and that's why the demo is a little off in design. It pretty much takes out the traps part of the fight as it is. It might not need much tweaking, but once you have a couple up at once, you're pretty certainly going to get a chain of explosions soon.

 

Maybe that'd be a solution, having a separate "max alive = 1" for demos. That way you'd have to interact, but you also .. could. You Can of course take out even a "several demos up at once", but with the way they trigger from even friendly fire, it's not exactly guaranteed. And the price for a "zombie hitting a zombie" is pretty steep.

[Jugginator]

Idk I've never had any issues with demos and traps. Granted I didn't pile all my traps together in a closed area. I made a perimeter of pressure plates tied to dart traps in tiny concrete boxes with electric fencing going across it. Hit gamestage 400 in that save, the only traps I lost were some pressure plates that I forgot to repair after the every night horde night I ran (and ran out of resources, but never lost any dart traps... most of the damage done was by my own grenades).

 

Demos are a non-issue if you just focus on them when you see em.

[DeadGerry]

If you are talking about Kage's base, I never looked at it nor commented on it. I was purely talking about the other base linked above.....

 

Nope; you replied to my comment that turning up the max alive has knock on effects on how many demolishers you get and how many at once - which was in a post which referenced Kage's base. If that was not what you intended to respond to, no harm done, but that is what you responded to.

 

Er.....That is EXACTLY what I am trying to achieve. That's the Holy Grail. That's the whole point for me and my group - perfect the base design till we can kill any strength of horde with minimal expense of ammo and repairs. That's the very crux of 7 Days to Die!!!!

 

You want to be able to play on hard mode, but experience easy mode, yes? I think you've really got this back to front. Play on default. If it's too easy turn it up. When it gets too challenging go back one. If you want a tactic / base that works equally well on easy mode as nightmare mode then what you want is an exploit. You're entirely welcome to that; and I genuinely won't criticize you for it - it's meant to be fun - so whatever makes you enjoy your game is 100% legit in my book - BUT - tell it like it is and don't criticize the devs for not giving you it.

 

The base I reference will work fine on easy, normal and above normal; with default and double default spawns up to game stage 200 at least and approximately day 56 at least. That is sufficient to show demolishers CAN be counteracted and base building is not dead, for anyone playing the game as intended. IF you want to bounce your settings up; it'll need work. Turn them down it'll be OP. BUt if are genuinely looking to find a way that you can crank the difficulty up to max, spawns up to max and still have your base auto kill everything with no risk to yourself.... turn on God mod. Cos you aren't playing anymore.

 

 

The problem is simply that Demolishers take so many options off the table for players trying to achieve this Holy Grail that the fun is removed. Their design simply narrows the options down to either massive expense in ammo/repairs, exploit or non-engagement.

 

I think in this thread we had demolished that notion. Now it's time for you to accept it. Kage's base - view-able on youtube demonstrates that your statement is false.

 

Yes, and that's why the demo is a little off in design. It pretty much takes out the traps part of the fight as it is. It might not need much tweaking, but once you have a couple up at once, you're pretty certainly going to get a chain of explosions soon.

 

Maybe that'd be a solution, having a separate "max alive = 1" for demos. That way you'd have to interact, but you also .. could. You Can of course take out even a "several demos up at once", but with the way they trigger from even friendly fire, it's not exactly guaranteed. And the price for a "zombie hitting a zombie" is pretty steep.

 

I'd recommend you also watch Kage848's last horde night to see that this is wrong. 2 blade traps, 2 electric fences, 4-8 dart traps and 2 uneccessary shotgun turrets and some AP ammo. Enough there to be playing with and discovering you own variants.

[BobTheBard]

I think in this thread we had demolished that notion. Now it's time for you to accept it. Kage's base - view-able on youtube demonstrates that your statement is false.

At least until people start copying, refining, and popularizing the design to the point it becomes a staple, and then something is introduced to 'fix' the balance problem it creates by 'trivializing' Demolishers.

 

No, I'm not cynical, why do you ask?

[Dimpy]

You want to be able to play on hard mode, but experience easy mode, yes? I think you've really got this back to front. Play on default. If it's too easy turn it up. When it gets too challenging go back one. If you want a tactic / base that works equally well on easy mode as nightmare mode then what you want is an exploit. You're entirely welcome to that; and I genuinely won't criticize you for it - it's meant to be fun - so whatever makes you enjoy your game is 100% legit in my book - BUT - tell it like it is and don't criticize the devs for not giving you it.

 

The base I reference will work fine on easy, normal and above normal; with default and double default spawns up to game stage 200 at least and approximately day 56 at least. That is sufficient to show demolishers CAN be counteracted and base building is not dead, for anyone playing the game as intended. IF you want to bounce your settings up; it'll need work. Turn them down it'll be OP. BUt if are genuinely looking to find a way that you can crank the difficulty up to max, spawns up to max and still have your base auto kill everything with no risk to yourself.... turn on God mod. Cos you aren't playing anymore.

 

I think Ghostlight is trying to say is that while he wants it to be possible to build a nearly zombie-proof base, he also wants it to be difficult to do so, and to do so is the ultimate goal in the same way other players might try to get all purple items.