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Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

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With that said, I think there's a performant solution to Gareee's problem.

 

I notice the "Industrial Light" model disappears once you get about 20 blocks away, while the "Basic Light Bulb" model stays visible up to ~150 blocks away, right up until player placed blocks disappear. Now, what Gareee's looking for isn't illumination, per se - he just wants a bright dot he can see in the distance. So the dynamic light isn't even necessary for this. Make the Industrial Light model draw as far away as the Basic Light Bulb does, and the rest should take care of itself. Because it looks like when they're on and rendering, lights have a glow texture that makes them look bright regardless of actual lighting calculations. The Basic Light Bulb is too small to see this at its max render distance, but the Industrial Light isn't.

 

 

 

How does the gyrocopter not have a light?? Between all other powered vehicles having lights, and the gyrocopter accessories requiring 8 headlights in the recipe, the game really sets up an expectation that it'll have a light.

 

Manux had a vehicle mod that added a 45 degree forward down spotlight to the gyro and it worked great. Some of his vehicles didn't fit into balancing well, so I haven't looked into adding them in a18.

 

I would think players would be less inclined to spam a ton of lights if one or two had significant distance and brightness. The trash can spotlights come to mind as SO disappointing, and they should be the best player craftable light.

 

Thinking about this more, maybe a distant lcb point light could be added, much like the distant terrain and the distance pois.

 

It would calculate the total light output of all lcb area lights and generate a single distant point light that slowly fades in when maybe 1/4 mile away, and then slowly fades away once in range of the furthest player lights that start to fade in.

 

One distant lcb area point light couldn't be spammed either.

 

I know lights have been nerfed a lot since a15.. I used to put a torch near windows inside pois near my base to add a little civilized "life" to the area.

Edited by Gareee (see edit history)

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If someone chooses to kill their FPS by spamming lights, let them. It's not a problem people will randomly come up against without serious effort on their part, and therefore not TFP's problem.

Yeah, but those same people talking about how the FPS in the game are complete garbage when they have been spamming lights? That's a TFP problem.

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I noticed the same thing when coming down the water tower of the water works POI...��

 

railed catwalks along the side of a structure are a pain. worse when crouched because you seem to just climb up them.

the new water tower with the fence around it is bad . its a handy temp base overnight but those rails at the top near killed me a few times. bring back the old water towers. i really liked the solid metal one in a17.4. i used to hollow it out and put in windows on 3 sides. used to set one up in every town in case i needed a place to spend the night..

This is not an a18 thing though has been this way from the first alpha they were released in.

Edited by spud42 (see edit history)

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Yeah, but those same people talking about how the FPS in the game are complete garbage when they have been spamming lights? That's a TFP problem.

Communicate it. Write it into the changelog. Name it as a known issue. Maybe even mention it in the ingame description for light sources.

If people still spam lights and complain about the framerate forward them to where they have been warned, it's their own fault.

 

Letting a skyscraper collapse also drops the fps. Do you make a skyscraper non collapsable just because people could do that?

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Letting a skyscraper collapse also drops the fps. Do you make a skyscraper non collapsable just because people could do that?

 

No one would ever do that...

 

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Communicate it. Write it into the changelog. Name it as a known issue. Maybe even mention it in the ingame description for light sources.

If people still spam lights and complain about the framerate forward them to where they have been warned, it's their own fault.

 

Letting a skyscraper collapse also drops the fps. Do you make a skyscraper non collapsable just because people could do that?

 

Fair point there. If you held back all your great ideas all because maybe a small few will abuse the feature to break there game then we wouldn’t have the game in the first place.

 

Give us the toys and see what happens. :)

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Some more thoughts:

 

A common tactic/exploit I find myself using is that I'll toggle the INT bonus from the Nerdy Glasses in order to change my Better Barter perk level. It basically makes 2 sets of trader items available every reset from the Secret Stash tab. How to do it:

  • Raise INT to 4 (or 6 or 9 if you have enough points)
  • Wear Nerdy Glasses to boost INT to 5/7/10
  • Raise Better Barter to 3/4/5
  • Visit a Trader, browse their Secret Stash section
  • Remove Glasses, lowering your INT to 4/6/9, which lowers your Better Barter to 2/3/4
  • Browse the Secret Stash again, it has now changed to a different set of items

 

I'm guessing this is very much not intended.

 

Another "exploit" I find myself using is that I'll loot the hidden backpacks/purses/ammo/etc. behind false walls/floors without actually breaking the obstruction. This doesn't work for all hidden stuff, but generally if you put your crosshair on the edge of the adjoining block it will let you loot the stuff. Again, this doesn't seem intended.

 

In non-exploit-related thoughts, is vehicle storage usable by multiple players in A18? I haven't done a co-op game since A17, but it was really annoying that only the vehicle owner (ie. the person that placed it on the ground) could use the storage compartment. Also, let us dye our vehicles so we can tell them apart lol

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If someone chooses to kill their FPS by spamming lights, let them. It's not a problem people will randomly come up against without serious effort on their part, and therefore not TFP's problem.

 

Maybe if the game is for SP only but keep in mind there is also MP support the devs have to manage.

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Thanks; it's good to get other people's perspectives.

 

On the argument that you can have a bank of forges running in parallel and make bricks without tying up your backpack, the same could be said for cobblestone, using a bank of workbenches.

 

On the argument that bricks offer an aesthetic alternative, all the brick textures have long been available to paint on whatever block you want.

 

On the argument that clay beats stone on acquisition time, I did another test. I had no skill points spent, and used an unmodded steel shovel and pickaxe.

One, 250 HP dirt block yielded 22 units of clay soil.

One, 500 HP stone block yielded 55 units of small stone.

That's 0.11 units of product for each 1 HP of damage in both cases. The clay yield per unit of HP is even worse for ground (the topsoil that's embedded with plant fibers) and sand. Also, dirt is not available in the desert, while stone is available in all biomes. So, other than having to dig through a few dirt blocks to reach the stone, if anything stone has the edge over clay in acquisition time.

 

On AlbasterW's argument that bricks provide more instant HP without the need to upgrade... well that's true, but that convenience comes at the cost of over four times as long to make the brick block in the first place.

 

TL;DR: fix bricks, Gazz! :D

 

That's some pretty good comparisons. My money is on that the devs just havent had time to rebalance/look at brick blocks. Hopefully Gazz will get to it sooner then later.

 

@Gazz since metal sheeting is the only type of flat block, perhaps brick could be repurposed as a cheaper sheeting alternative? Altho, I dont know having flat brick sheeting would appeal to realists. Perhaps instead of brick, can call it mud/clay splattering??? 😂

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Communicate it. Write it into the changelog. Name it as a known issue. Maybe even mention it in the ingame description for light sources.

If people still spam lights and complain about the framerate forward them to where they have been warned, it's their own fault.

 

Letting a skyscraper collapse also drops the fps. Do you make a skyscraper non collapsable just because people could do that?

 

Making note of something publically does no prevent it from not happening (error proofing) Just like how not everyone reads operations manuals. A good design builds quality into the system to error proof it.

 

The following is an example of a more controlled design:

 

1) Allow players to craft how ever many lights they want

2) Limit how many lights are rendered to a maximum value.

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Laying off the trigger isn't actually an option, because your house will be destroyed, and you will die.

 

Then build a castle.

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The problem is player craftable lights can be spammed. You could place a hundred close to each other. We are not trying to spam place POI lights. Yes, you try to add some limits, but then it gets complicated, which takes time, so not a priority now.

 

Also, I was thinking a front light on the gyro might help.

 

I would hope the gyro would have some lights, IIRC it takes 8 headlights to make the damn thing lol

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Thanks; it's good to get other people's perspectives.

 

I haven't actually crafted brick blocks in years...

 

What is the difference between the brick blocks you craft and the brick blocks that are the upgraded block of cobblestone? It goes flagstone --> Cobblestone --> Brick and I've always gotten brick by upgrading cobbelstone instead of crafting it directly.

 

Is it a different brick? Seems the brick you upgrade to from Cobblestone should be higher HP and you should be getting XP from the process of upgrading. So how does that brick compare?

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It goes flagstone --> Cobblestone --> Brick

 

It goes wood ⇒ tougher wood ⇒ flagstone ⇒ cobblestone ⇒ wet concrete now. Brick's its own thing, I'd wager some small sum that it's aready on the TFP things-that-could-stand-another-rebalance-pass-when-we-get-a-chance list.

 

I like the concrete drying mechanic, even the dry-concrete-"upgrade"s-to-wet-concrete utterly-dumbfounding-weirdity has its charms on horde nights.

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It goes wood ⇒ tougher wood ⇒ flagstone ⇒ cobblestone ⇒ wet concrete now. Brick's its own thing, I'd wager some small sum that it's aready on the TFP things-that-could-stand-another-rebalance-pass-when-we-get-a-chance list.

 

I like the concrete drying mechanic, even the dry-concrete-"upgrade"s-to-wet-concrete utterly-dumbfounding-weirdity has its charms on horde nights.

 

actually, there are 2 paths, you are both mostly correct

rolands is clay and stone to make cobblestone to make flagstone blocks, upgrades to brown brick <which is different than the red brick from the forge> to concrete.

 

in my opinion, the red and brown should have the same hp, changing one to a paint option

Edited by wolfbain5 (see edit history)

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I haven't actually crafted brick blocks in years...

 

What is the difference between the brick blocks you craft and the brick blocks that are the upgraded block of cobblestone? It goes flagstone --> Cobblestone --> Brick and I've always gotten brick by upgrading cobbelstone instead of crafting it directly.

 

Is it a different brick? Seems the brick you upgrade to from Cobblestone should be higher HP and you should be getting XP from the process of upgrading. So how does that brick compare?

 

The red bricks you craft at a forge are the ones people are talking about not being worth it, I believe. The gray/brown 'flagbricks' are the ones everyone uses instead.

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@MM what is the main use case for the penetrator perk and damaging blocks as well? (PvP?)

 

I have been discouraged to use it with my current base because how I have my dart traps setup. Personal issue I know but curious what your thoughts were on it before I make the necessary changes to my base design...😂

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The problem is player craftable lights can be spammed. You could place a hundred close to each other. We are not trying to spam place POI lights. Yes, you try to add some limits, but then it gets complicated, which takes time, so not a priority now.

 

Also, I was thinking a front light on the gyro might help.

 

But isn't that a player problem? What do TFP care if players shoot themselves in the foot?

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Yeah, but those same people talking about how the FPS in the game are complete garbage when they have been spamming lights? That's a TFP problem.

 

Players don't want low FPS. They actively avoid things like solar power because it tanks FPS. For something that noticeably decreases FPS, they'll figure it out and stop doing it.

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Maybe if the game is for SP only but keep in mind there is also MP support the devs have to manage.

 

That's what server rules and server tools are for, and they are already needed for many things presently in the game. To take someone else's example, a server mod I used had a switch to prevent animation on collapsing blocks -- they'd just instantly despawn --, precisely because it can affect the whole server.

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@Gazz since metal sheeting is the only type of flat block, perhaps brick could be repurposed as a cheaper sheeting alternative? Altho, I dont know having flat brick sheeting would appeal to realists. Perhaps instead of brick, can call it mud/clay splattering???

 

You mean the only one besides wood fence, reinforced wood fence, corruscated plate, awning sheet, and the chainlink variants?

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Players don't want low FPS. They actively avoid things like solar power because it tanks FPS. For something that noticeably decreases FPS, they'll figure it out and stop doing it.

What is this mythical sensible player and where do we find it? =P

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In previous alphas I went only with a bow against zombies in the first 3 weeks of gameplay. Right now it feels like guns are more viable option against zombies during hord nights with some traps/automatic turrets... or its just my playstyle.

 

Id rather see perks divided into trees/links (at least weapon and tool unlocks), divided into malee/tools and kinetic weapons rather than ascribed permanently into Strenght or Agility etc.

 

I believe most advanced players go after 7.62 cal rifles first especially AK/M60 and Sniper Rifle builds. I believe trees would make weapon choice more consistent alongside with damage. Now, ending up with high tier 7.62 max-buffed weapon is possible within first days.

 

Primitive Bow, 9mm Pistol, Blunderbuss >next perk> Advanced Bow, SMG-5, Sawed Shotgun > 5.56 cal M4 and SAW249, Action Shotgun, Compound Bow, Crossbow > .44 Revolver, Hunting Rifle, AK-47 > Semi-auto Shotgun, Sniper Rifle, M60 >last perk> Engame weapon?

 

Perking would have been compulsolary in order to remove penalty on reaload, switching times, improve hip-fire accuracy, handling for higher tier weapons and also give better headshot damage bonuses (I kind of like it because it gives some skill/fun factor too).

 

But, keep overall damage to other parts of the body flat please, I beg You, I dont want to see sponge bob situations and confusion. Calculations of how many bullets should actually take to finally drop a pack of zombies by shooting them into a chest has to be put to an end. Better tier weapons should only slightly improve overall damage, improve range and durability. I would leave DPS for weapon mods only, so people would adjust that one to their likings same as mag capacity. Damage and penetration could be changed with ammo type and cost of gun powder. Leave 10 to 20-30-40-50 overall damage progression behind, bonuses to headshots are fine - replace damage with reload, draw times, hip fire accuracy/handling or some sort. My point is that I would like to be always sure about the damage/possible outcome with given tier weapon and ammo type. 10-50 damage as main perk buffs distort my perception. Moreover, other weapons start to feel extremely broken/useless without artificially buffing the damage to have consistent TTK with other guns.

 

Stone axe, Stone Sledge Hammer, Bone Knife, Stone Spear, Club, Torch, Fists > Knife and Iron axe, Knuckles, Sledge Hammer, Spear, Reinforced Club, Claw Hammer > Machete, Steel Axe, Knuckles, Spear, Sledge Hammer, Wrench > Baseball bat, Stun Baton > Nailgun, Chainsaw, Auger >last perk> ??? or its already last - I have nothing against current damage progression etc.

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I would hope the gyro would have some lights, IIRC it takes 8 headlights to make the damn thing lol

 

Does it ? Haha I not even looked at that yet in game but that’s kind of funny, it requires lights to build yet players are asking for the use of lights.... if only the vehicles where built in block form like in Space Engineers we could design our own. :)

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honestly a pistol is easy to find day 1. nitrate lead coal are so easy to find and dig a few blocks as you pass by. work benches are in most garages. not hard at all to make ammunition once you have a forge that takes one perk point. perk points can be earned in 5 mins from starting

why mess with bows at all?

with no other perks than forge which is a no brainer you can kick ass from midday day 1

takes a little longer sometimes but not often.

i like it as i am a casual gamer but cant comprehend how people struggle.

 

so if it is hard with a bow maybe there are balance issues.

i will go bows next iteration and see for nyself

 

but irl id rather have an ak...

correction irl id rather be fishing

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