Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[ozzysfang]

lmao. uhm... need better structural support? SI is a pita? or was that a horde wrecking crew?

 

yes sir. Lots o' Coppers

[meganoth]

You group things together to make sense , to have certain styles and not to scatter the skill points into useless things.

 

I remember when I could have decent melee ability and godlike mining abilities because I was focusing on mining. Now I need twice the skill points for mining, I can't craft steel parts without reading schematics AND having steel parts AND specing into tyrannosaurus . By the time I have a mediocre steel pickaxe I have an auger an infinite amount of gas.

 

I want to wrench with the builder because Madmole decided it was uncool to craft mechanical parts, electrical components and springs.

 

I get that you WANT, but why should the game fullfill your every wish? If you are a builder, you can still get a lot of mechanical parts with "Salvage Ops" at 1 or buy them from the trader. What are you missing besides perfection ?

 

If the steel axe is on average found too late in the game or the auger too good, that is a balancing problem and can actually be solved by balancing the game.

 

I get more iron from a maxed wrench than mining with a max perked auger or a steel pickaxe.

 

Not if you have the miner book series complete , but that's beside the point.

 

It might be possible to get more iron with a wrench if you are standing directly before a car, but the objects to wrench are distributed over a big area, partly protected by lots of zombies. Are you sure the same is true if you also have to fight for every piece in POI's, and drive around for unspoiled POI's or cars?

 

And why, if the wrench is so good, should the governing perk be given to the miner, making him even more overpowered regarding resource-scrounging? You can't even bring immersion as a reason. Why should the STR class/miner be the only way to gather resources?

 

If I want to loot houses to get more loot through scavenging why the hell would I need to wrench it?

 

Do you? Where do you get that NEED to wrench? I've played one or two co-op games as a scavenger without looting a single thing inside POI's. Most playthroughs I do a little wrenching, when I don't have something better to do or there is something valuable to loot. In single player I do everything, moderately. I have enough mechanical parts in my SP game at the moment to build lots of turrets, just not the schematic. I could have bought mech parts at the trader if I couldn't find them elsewhere, but didn't need it yet.

 

If I need to build turrets and electrical components why would I need to use stun batons when I clearly need wrenches?

 

Do you have problems finding a lvl1 wrench in this game? Probably not, I don't even have a problem finding lvl4 or better wrenches in the game after a moderate time.

 

Do you have some psychological barrier using that wrench unless you are SalvageOps 5 and have a lvl5 wrench? No? Then use a wrench. If you are a turret builder it doesn't mean you are a wrenching expert as well. You might want to be, but you won't get it unless you play co-op and invite a wrenching expert.

 

If I need stamina to use stun batons why would I need to be better at bartering when I need better stamina?

If I want to play stealth shouldn't I need a silenced weapon?

If I want to play as a looter shouldn't I be able to carry more items at the same time?

If I want to play a tower defense build instead of a looting build why should I need to spec into machine gun/brawling to build more farms?

 

This is such a basic level of anything, it shouldn't be discussed, it should just be corrected.

 

This is not a typical class system for multiplayer games where everyone is a total specialist. This is a class system for a game where a toon has to function well in single player and multipayer. So every ability/class is a well rounded character that has strengths in every area, i,e, weapons, damage avoidance, resource gathering. But everyone differently.

[Grymgem]

How about swapping out the dated attribute approach in favor of a unique organizational sceme?

 

Three categories that represent what we actually do in this game.

 

Survival Skills- metabolism and health, looting, hunting.

 

Combat Perks- all combat perks with the damage modifier folded in to each tree.

 

Strategic Tinkering- crafting, medicine, resource intake.

 

No need to for mental gymnastics like "why is cooking in strength? " or "why isn't 'the penetrator' a combat skill?"

 

Thoughts?

[Hollowprime]

I get that you WANT, but why should the game fullfill your every wish? If you are a builder, you can still get a lot of mechanical parts with "Salvage Ops" at 1 or buy them from the trader. What are you missing besides perfection ?

 

If the steel axe is on average found too late in the game or the auger too good, that is a balancing problem and can actually be solved by balancing the game.

 

 

 

Not if you have the miner book series complete , but that's beside the point.

 

It might be possible to get more iron with a wrench if you are standing directly before a car, but the objects to wrench are distributed over a big area, partly protected by lots of zombies. Are you sure the same is true if you also have to fight for every piece in POI's, and drive around for unspoiled POI's or cars?

 

And why, if the wrench is so good, should the governing perk be given to the miner, making him even more overpowered regarding resource-scrounging? You can't even bring immersion as a reason. Why should the STR class/miner be the only way to gather resources?

 

 

 

Do you? Where do you get that NEED to wrench? I've played one or two co-op games as a scavenger without looting a single thing inside POI's. Most playthroughs I do a little wrenching, when I don't have something better to do or there is something valuable to loot. In single player I do everything, moderately. I have enough mechanical parts in my SP game at the moment to build lots of turrets, just not the schematic. I could have bought mech parts at the trader if I couldn't find them elsewhere, but didn't need it yet.

 

 

 

Do you have problems finding a lvl1 wrench in this game? Probably not, I don't even have a problem finding lvl4 or better wrenches in the game after a moderate time.

 

Do you have some psychological barrier using that wrench unless you are SalvageOps 5 and have a lvl5 wrench? No? Then use a wrench. If you are a turret builder it doesn't mean you are a wrenching expert as well. You might want to be, but you won't get it unless you play co-op and invite a wrenching expert.

 

 

 

This is not a typical class system for multiplayer games where everyone is a total specialist. This is a class system for a game where a toon has to function well in single player and multipayer. So every ability/class is a well rounded character that has strengths in every area, i,e, weapons, damage avoidance, resource gathering. But everyone differently.

 

I think you are completely missing my point. It is not about what I simply want, it's where perks fit together. A builder needs electrical components so he gets them from wrenching and nowhere else (he's lucky if he finds it from trader). A builder is also a miner so he needs better tools to mine. A builder does not use stun batons but mainly traps. He's essentially an engineer.

 

A fighter is good at fighting that's why he needs stamina. Giving tyrannosaurus perk to sledgehammers and clubs makes perfect sense, it would also help on damage over time weapons like knives , also on spears to turn corridors into zombie shish kebabs but for some reason shotguns are the ones that are with that group when they should OBVIOUSLY be on the armor penetration perk (see surgical precision perk in New Vegas).

 

The current perk system is advantageous for certain builds (melee sledgehammer/turret syndrome/miner or knuckle/tanker) , overpowered for other builds (looting ammo and books) and disadvantageous for others (knives,spears even bows). It is also obvious that the devs prefer certain items over others. That is true because items like sledgehammer , machineguns and turrets get perks with more than 2 bonuses while others like spears, stun batons and knives get only two.

 

So when it comes down to balance, the devs buffed certain builds over others while were nerfed and watered down.

 

Another example of that is the fact attributes now give headshot chance when in previous versions the headshots were governed only by the weapon (machete had the highest headshot chance). Now we are forced to max attributes to headshot zombies.

[meganoth]

I think you are completely missing my point. It is not about what I simply want, it's where perks fit together. A builder needs electrical components so he gets them from wrenching and nowhere else (he's lucky if he finds it from trader). A builder is also a miner so he needs better tools to mine. A builder does not use stun batons but mainly traps. He's essentially an engineer.

 

A fighter is good at fighting that's why he needs stamina. Giving tyrannosaurus perk to sledgehammers and clubs makes perfect sense, it would also help on damage over time weapons like knives , also on spears to turn corridors into zombie shish kebabs but for some reason shotguns are the ones that are with that group when they should OBVIOUSLY be on the armor penetration perk (see surgical precision perk in New Vegas).

 

The current perk system is advantageous for certain builds (melee sledgehammer/turret syndrome/miner or knuckle/tanker) , overpowered for other builds (looting ammo and books) and disadvantageous for others (knives,spears even bows). It is also obvious that the devs prefer certain items over others. That is true because items like sledgehammer , machineguns and turrets get perks with more than 2 bonuses while others like spears, stun batons and knives get only two.

 

So when it comes down to balance, the devs buffed certain builds over others while were nerfed and watered down.

 

Another example of that is the fact attributes now give headshot chance when in previous versions the headshots were governed only by the weapon (machete had the highest headshot chance). Now we are forced to max attributes to headshot zombies.

 

The important part in my post was the last paragraph (I was even thinking (too late) to remove the other stuff again because it was too focused on details and partly beside the point, as you noticed).

 

A straight multiplayer game (like a shooter) could have a medic that is only medic. Or a technician that can only damage tanks and buildings and is useless 1-1.

 

A game that works as a single-player game too can't do that. If it wants to have classes (closed or even open like 7D2D) it needs fully rounded classes able to do something of everything.

 

I fully agree that balance isn't here. And surely TFP could switch around perks and get a few other sensible combinations of attributes working. But, correct me if I'm wrong, many of your suggestions seem geared at creating specialists in a MP game and would screw SP.

[Blake_]

Slow is relative. There are no hard and fast numbers. If a setting makes your game run slow, then turn it down. AF does not make much difference in most games, but from some reading I just did, it does make a difference in some games, if that is where the bottleneck is. Terrain pixels are doing about a dozen texture reads, so AF can have a much larger effect there than say a wall pixel that does a a few texture reads.

 

I forgot to mention AMD cards can't do anisotropic as good as Nvidia, in fact, they handle that particular thing pretty bad. It was always like that. To those guys who don't remember that little detail, it was a well hidden Aquiles heel since AMD swallowed ATI, which yes, had the same problem in its products. The amount of VRAM that anisotropic in AMD cards takes is akin to wanting to run raytracing with a GTX 1080ti. Doable but brace yourself.

 

So if you guys use AMD, and have glitches, sparkling Disco textures, flashes, brutal meltdowns in frames etc, in ANY game, just switch AF off.

 

That said, because of AMD cards usually having a good VRAM buildup, those magical crazy glitches and meltdowns only show when the system requirements are getting closeish. And I say ish* because a simple "AF On" can fill the equivalent of a whooping 3-5 VRAM at 16x. Yeah, that bad.

 

HBM is just a way to compensate for that extreme flaw. So high end AMD Vega should be fine on ULTRA settings.

[Gazz]

10% slow on the knife perk is so low, if you are encumbered or you enrage the zombie (which is 99% of the cases early game) you are zombie meat.

I've tried stealth sledgehammer builds more efficient than deadly knives.

Blades were good before. Now they are very good.

 

You don't even have to believe me.

is doing a play-through using melee only on nightmare/insane/permadeath, is using blades and is doing so without constantly cheesing the pathing.

Granted, as a player he's somewhat above average but... you might learn a thing or two.

[Jay_ombie]

I forgot to mention AMD cards can't do anisotropic as good as Nvidia, in fact, they handle that particular thing pretty bad. It was always like that. To those guys who don't remember that little detail, it was a well hidden Aquiles heel since AMD swallowed ATI, which yes, had the same problem in its products. The amount of VRAM that anisotropic in AMD cards takes is akin to wanting to run raytracing with a GTX 1080ti. Doable but brace yourself.

 

So if you guys use AMD, and have glitches, sparkling Disco textures, flashes, brutal meltdowns in frames etc, in ANY game, just switch AF off.

 

That said, because of AMD cards usually having a good VRAM buildup, those magical crazy glitches and meltdowns only show when the system requirements are getting closeish. And I say ish* because a simple "AF On" can fill the equivalent of a whooping 3-5 VRAM at 16x. Yeah, that bad.

 

HBM is just a way to compensate for that extreme flaw. So high end AMD Vega should be fine on ULTRA settings.

 

Well said.

 

This is it with AMD vs Nvidia GPU cards each have their ups and downs with certain features. Because it’s available doesn’t mean you can run it on your nice sparkly GPU with the other options on.

 

There has to be a understanding between balancing certain gpu features.

[Liesel Weppen]

But, correct me if I'm wrong, many of your suggestions seem geared at creating specialists in a MP game and would screw SP.

No, it won't screw singleplayer because the system would be more flexible.

As hollowprime already said, the current system, as the skills and perks are now, prefer some special builds. If you don't want one of these builds, you can still do otherwise, but then you have to waist a lot of skillpoints for skills you are never using. Why skill "strength" if you don't like shotguns and clubs? The "strength" itself is then completely useless for your build, but you need to invest skillpoints into it, because you want to become a masterchef, or improve your miningperks.

The skill "strength" itself should not prefer any weapon type. Just make it "more block damage" in general for all weapons or tools, or something else but NOT strength == shotgun & clubs. That is just stupid.

 

It is even worse in singleplayer. In SP you need some kind of allround-build, but the current system prefers specizalized builds and makes allround-builds very ineffective. I guess only very few people use all the weapons all the time. But you need to skill all the 5 base skills somehow to get to the perks you want to have but don't get any effort out of most of the skills, just because you don't use that weapons the skill buffs.

 

Also you can save that points in some cases and hope to find the skillbook. But that is completely random. Therefore you can not rely on it. We had a game where we found the books needed for a truck even before one of us could build a bicycle. In another game i wanted to sage skillpoints for masterchef and even on day 30 haven't found some books to teach me the crops.

[Hollowprime]

Blades were good before. Now they are very good.

 

You don't even have to believe me.

is doing a play-through using melee only on nightmare/insane/permadeath, is using blades and is doing so without constantly cheesing the pathing.

Granted, as a player he's somewhat above average but... you might learn a thing or two.

 

My god this is sad. If this is the best knife/spear build, hitting and running and climbing, how does the average build look like? He barely uses spears because they can't kill anything.

"I can't deal with two guys,one guy is too much"

 

I can do the same with a stone sledgehammer (preferably iron sledgehammer because it actually deals damage) . Zombies get stunned and I can headshot them when they are down. He also never becomes encumbered because that's it means death in higher difficulties.

 

The only different thing I somewhat knew but didn't realise is power attacking with knives instantly stuns zombies? while I can't stun zombies 100% of the time when I use sledgehammers.

 

Yeah knives are mediocre and spears are garbage alright, thanks for clarifying it.

[DeadGerry]

My god this is sad. If this is the best knife/spear build, hitting and running and climbing, how does the average build look like? He barely uses spears because they can't kill anything.

"I can't deal with two guys,one guy is too much"

 

I can do the same with a stone sledgehammer (preferably iron sledgehammer because it actually deals damage) . Zombies get stunned and I can headshot them when they are down. He also never becomes encumbered because that's it means death in higher difficulties.

 

The only different thing I somewhat knew but didn't realise is power attacking with knives instantly stuns zombies? while I can't stun zombies 100% of the time when I use sledgehammers.

 

Yeah knives are mediocre and spears are garbage alright, thanks for clarifying it.

 

My goodness what a lot of bluster.

 

I want I want I want; there's no room for discussion, this is crap that is crap - nevermind the positive feedbakc from other players or the years of development that got us here.

 

Take a deep breath and repeat after me 'it's not all about me.'

 

Everything you are claiming cannot be done any longer can - turn the options down and play longer and on easier mode, use creative mode, mod it or roll back an alpha or two. You CHOOSE not to do it, that's about you.

 

Everything you say you remember and liked was exactly what many, many players thought was wrong with earlier alphas. You SHOULDN'T be invincible and safe, well fed and able to make top tier stuff in week 1. You still CAN get those things, but you need to invest the time and effort to get them. It is possible, you just choose not to earn it and want it all from day 1. change the ingame options, use creative mode, mod it or roll back a few alphas. If you choose not to then that's about you.

 

You CAN mine like a god without perking, by using a looted or bought or earned auger; you just don't WANT to - you WANT to be able to make a purple steel pick and one shot ores without having to perk or earn it. Again - you CAN, you're just chosing not to and want it done for you and that's all about you.

 

The player you were pointed at is playing nightmare / insane / permadeath and is coping with the knives - playing on lower settings means even a poor player CAN get the hang of it if they invest the time and effort - but yet again - you CHOOSE not to.

 

Knives are good, spears are fine until everythings glowing, Im a mediocre player on moderate settings.

 

The answer to all of your cries are within your reach - use them.

[wolfbain5]

and I am the opposite, I hate the slow ass sledge, dislike the stun baton, I love the spear tho. knife is mediocre, and I use intel agility build

[Hollowprime]

and I am the opposite, I hate the slow ass sledge, dislike the stun baton, I love the spear tho. knife is mediocre, and I use intel agility build

 

You can try the stone sledgehammer which swings faster and more often than iron/steel variants . It would be hilarious if it's better than either in higher difficulties due to constant head shots.

 

My goodness what a lot of bluster.

 

I want I want I want; there's no room for discussion, this is crap that is crap - nevermind the positive feedbakc from other players or the years of development that got us here.

 

Take a deep breath and repeat after me 'it's not all about me.'

 

Everything you are claiming cannot be done any longer can - turn the options down and play longer and on easier mode, use creative mode, mod it or roll back an alpha or two. You CHOOSE not to do it, that's about you.

 

Everything you say you remember and liked was exactly what many, many players thought was wrong with earlier alphas. You SHOULDN'T be invincible and safe, well fed and able to make top tier stuff in week 1. You still CAN get those things, but you need to invest the time and effort to get them. It is possible, you just choose not to earn it and want it all from day 1. change the ingame options, use creative mode, mod it or roll back a few alphas. If you choose not to then that's about you.

 

You CAN mine like a god without perking, by using a looted or bought or earned auger; you just don't WANT to - you WANT to be able to make a purple steel pick and one shot ores without having to perk or earn it. Again - you CAN, you're just chosing not to and want it done for you and that's all about you.

 

The player you were pointed at is playing nightmare / insane / permadeath and is coping with the knives - playing on lower settings means even a poor player CAN get the hang of it if they invest the time and effort - but yet again - you CHOOSE not to.

 

Knives are good, spears are fine until everythings glowing, Im a mediocre player on moderate settings.

 

The answer to all of your cries are within your reach - use them.

 

K.

[n2n1]

A18.2 (b5)...delivered some optimization...

Yes, optimization is a good thing, but there is probably too much

why do you rush to extremes?

This is what mAcro-splat?

You left the cubic terrain many years ago. Now minecraft is calling you back?

When will simplify the crafting system to crafting grid?

[JaxTeller718]

My god this is sad. If this is the best knife/spear build, hitting and running and climbing, how does the average build look like? He barely uses spears because they can't kill anything.

"I can't deal with two guys,one guy is too much"

 

I can do the same with a stone sledgehammer (preferably iron sledgehammer because it actually deals damage) . Zombies get stunned and I can headshot them when they are down. He also never becomes encumbered because that's it means death in higher difficulties.

 

The only different thing I somewhat knew but didn't realise is power attacking with knives instantly stuns zombies? while I can't stun zombies 100% of the time when I use sledgehammers.

 

Yeah knives are mediocre and spears are garbage alright, thanks for clarifying it.

 

What I find interesting is how we are told over and over that the perks and skills are designed so we arent pigeon holed into one play style but that that is EXACTLY what it does. Good luck being pure blunt, or pure blade. It isnt happening.

 

At SOME point you need some points in ranged. Sure Jonah can show us it can be done but he is the exception to the rule not the normal. Try to be a Michonne in 7 Days. It isnt happening, ever.

 

So just how diverse are the gameplay and the perks if eventually guns is the only way to go after a certain gamestage.

 

And end game blade and blunt weapon could go to alleviating this problem a bit. A Katana? Or some sort of Saw Bat/Spiked Aluminum Bat?

[Gareee]

Blades were good before. Now they are very good.

 

I miss the superfast knifing. Can't we get that back as a weapon mod or book perk? It was funny as hell to watch, and I'm sure that would be popular for streamers.

[RipClaw]

At SOME point you need some points in ranged. Sure Jonah can show us it can be done but he is the exception to the rule not the normal. Try to be a Michonne in 7 Days. It isnt happening, ever.

 

Jonah plays dead is dead. That means in the second melee isn't enough anymore to kill zombies he starts over anyway because he dies.

[Gazz]

I miss the superfast knifing. Can't we get that back as a weapon mod or book perk? It was funny as hell to watch, and I'm sure that would be popular for streamers.

I don't know what you mean. Knives look super fast to me.

[JaxTeller718]

Jonah plays dead is dead. That means in the second melee isn't enough anymore to kill zombies he starts over anyway because he dies.

 

Hmmm I would think that reinforces the idea of pigeon holed builds even more then.

[meganoth]

No, it won't screw singleplayer because the system would be more flexible.

As hollowprime already said, the current system, as the skills and perks are now, prefer some special builds. If you don't want one of these builds, you can still do otherwise, but then you have to waist a lot of skillpoints for skills you are never using. Why skill "strength" if you don't like shotguns and clubs? The "strength" itself is then completely useless for your build, but you need to invest skillpoints into it, because you want to become a masterchef, or improve your miningperks.

The skill "strength" itself should not prefer any weapon type. Just make it "more block damage" in general for all weapons or tools, or something else but NOT strength == shotgun & clubs. That is just stupid.

 

It is even worse in singleplayer. In SP you need some kind of allround-build, but the current system prefers specizalized builds and makes allround-builds very ineffective. I guess only very few people use all the weapons all the time. But you need to skill all the 5 base skills somehow to get to the perks you want to have but don't get any effort out of most of the skills, just because you don't use that weapons the skill buffs.

 

Also you can save that points in some cases and hope to find the skillbook. But that is completely random. Therefore you can not rely on it. We had a game where we found the books needed for a truck even before one of us could build a bicycle. In another game i wanted to sage skillpoints for masterchef and even on day 30 haven't found some books to teach me the crops.

 

Sorry, you misunderstand what specialization means in this case. To play the game in SP you need to be good at combat (melee and ranged), good at avoiding or healing damage, good at getting resources, preferably of all three types (building resources, weapons and armor, food). I would call them generalized abilities. When the game is well balanced it doesn't matter for your survivability whether your ranged weapon is a shotgun or a marksman rifle. You just need to adapt your playstyle to each weapon, but they all kill zombies. It doesn't even mean all weapons have to be equally good, but somewhat weaker weapons are balanced with better perks in other areas. For Strength it means your base defense would be better than the one the Fortitude-player can afford as a balance.

 

And so the game offers you 5 archetypes. With advantages and disadvantages, with specific solutions in any of those generalized abilities that allow you to play the whole game as a single player. Each archetype is an effective allround-build already.

 

When you say "But you need to skill all the 5 base skills somehow to get to the perks you want to have", recognize that you only need it if you want to get everything you "want" and that also perfectly. The game doesn't give you everything you want, it gives you everything you need.

 

I play an Agility single-player and most perks I took outside of Agi are one-point-perks (one point in living of the land and adventurer for example), they can just be bought without any points in attributes. Exceptions are miner69, mother lode, Salvage Operations and Lucky Looter, maybe an indication their boni might be a little too good (or I misjudge them to be too good).

 

Sure, principally the attributes could give general buffs. Perception would add damage or headshot damage to all ranged weapons. And suddenly 90% of all players would really see a need to spec into perception, no matter what else they want to do. Because ranged damage is something that almost everyone wants AND needs. Because the generalized abilities are not equal in importance.

This would also mean that more than 50% of players would play a perception+some other attribute build. Solution could be to lower the boni perception gives to ranged damage. Still, practically it would mean less specialization or more difficult balancing work.

[Hollowprime]

I don't know what you mean. Knives look super fast to me.

 

Gazz, quick question, does headshot actually translate to "chance to dismember the head of a zombie upon successfully hitting the head instantly killing it" ? Is it the same for all entities including irradiated and simple zombies?

[meganoth]

Gazz, quick question, does headshot actually translate to "chance to dismember the head of a zombie upon successfully hitting the head instantly killing it" ? Is it the same for all entities including irradiated and simple zombies?

 

I think I can help here, If you are refering to the agility perk: Yes, it is insta-kill, but the actual chance depends on base damage of the weapon in relation to the hitpoints of the enemy.

 

So if your head dismember chance is 50% and the base damage of your weapon is 1/10th of the total hitpoints of that zombie, your actual chance to dismember is 5% per hit.

 

I said **base** damage because it is not totally clear whether for example headshot bonus damage is included in that calculation. At least when doing a few inconclusive tests it seemed to be not included.

[Gareee]

I don't know what you mean. Knives look super fast to me.

 

Remember the first superfast a18 knife point release? the speed was nerfed in the following point release.

[Hollowprime]

I think I can help here, If you are refering to the agility perk: Yes, it is insta-kill, but the actual chance depends on base damage of the weapon in relation to the hitpoints of the enemy.

 

So if your head dismember chance is 50% and the base damage of your weapon is 1/10th of the total hitpoints of that zombie, your actual chance to dismember is 5% per hit.

 

I said **base** damage because it is not totally clear whether for example headshot bonus damage is included in that calculation. At least when doing a few inconclusive tests it seemed to be not included.

 

I need an accurate answer. I'm going to ask around.

[wolfbain5]

wth... I log into my game and my character is reset to level 1 as if a new character?

 

edit: the world is there, it is day 48, no gear, no levels, just wiped. back up is level 1 as well.