Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[faatal]

This is kinda a mix of question, feedback and possible bug report. I've already posted this in the general forum (https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?134748-In-Search-of-a-Random-Blood-Moon), but I feel I might have more responsiveness here. My apologies for the double-post.

 

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NOTE: This is specifically for MP RWG; I haven't played SP in several versions.

 

The idea of a Blood Moon every 7 days has always been a bit formulaic to me, and I've been in search of a way to get a true random Blood Moon. A17 provided an answer to this in the Blood Moon Frequency/Range, but if I'm not mistaken, something has changed in the way that's calculated slightly in A18. Am not sure if I'm (a) derping and not remembering right [it's quite possible], or (b) something actually changed.

 

Regardless of that answer, the way that it appears to be handled in A18 is a bit counter-intuitive and "spoiler-ish" to me.

 

In A17, I used to run a frequency of 1 with a range of 5, which basically gave me a 20% chance per day, where one Blood Moon must occur every 5 days at minimum. Back to backs, were possible, but of course with a diminishing chance. For instance, the first BM happened between 2-6 days away. This is the way I'd expect it work: 1 + RND(5)

 

Now, in A18, it appears now that the Frequency determines the first day of the Blood Moon, regardless of the Range. For instance, a 1/5, as before will happen on day 1 *always*, then proceed as normal. A 2/5, the first blood *always* happens on Day 2, then proceeds as normal. More like FRQ+RND(5)

 

I've tested this on two RWG maps with about 25 fresh starts of the server: keeping the Generated Worlds folder and deleting the profiles file along with the actual generated county folder, and then checking the log for the BM days. Each time, the Blood Moon always, without fail, starts on the Frequency day. The NEXT BM varies as I would expect, but that first BM always seems to land on the Frequency.

 

This seems a bit counter-intuitive, and spoiler-ish, considering using this, you can pick the day the Blood Moon begins on.

 

That was not changed in A18. It could just be the random seed giving the same value each time. You many need to change the world name to get different results.

[AtomicUs5000]

That was not changed in A18. It could just be the random seed giving the same value each time. You many need to change the world name to get different results.

 

We've thought of that faatal.

 

You need to see the end of the thread. Here's the link to CrainBramp's test results:

https://rebrand.ly/rwgtest-a18-bm

[Lonestarcanuck]

Dammit @MM... I see WT Book vol 4 allows me to make purified water - nice!

also I like that AofM Vol 3 gives more resources while drinking coffee.

 

are these changes from A18 to A18.1? if not I kinda missed those when reading.

[Onarr]

If we raise the price, it costs much more to buy and the early game guy starves and the late game farmer profits too much. We're not reducing food, we're reducing EVERYTHING.

 

My argument was tied to current drops. From my experience food is not a problem, therefore early game guy will not starve and farming food being actually profitable was my premise. It fits the theme of the game and it gives actual benefit to making bigger farm.

 

The basic idea is to have sinks for resources, so the value of items is more or less constant throughout the game. It is widely used in MMORPGs as way to repair economy. Resource sinks are also better accepted by community as it is framed as gain, instead nerfing the game, which is viewed as loss. It is called framing bias.

 

My other concern is, that decreasing loot abundance will make the game too grindy.

[NukemDed]

is there anywhere we can suggest little changes that are just polish?

 

was looking at recipes in the campfire last night trying to see what I could and couldn't cook, and with the fire going it is quite hard to see if the right icon that indicates the recipe is still locked is quite hard to see against the flames.

 

it seems the ones that you can cook because of having the correct ingredients and having the right bits installed in the fire show up with bold text, whereas the ones you cant make because of lack of ingredients or cook pot/grill/beaker are greyed out a bit. this is independent from if you have unlocked it. I do note the ones further down the list are locked, and have the icon, but again, against the flames it is hard to see.

 

maybe if the icon went red if you hover over the recipe, or when it is locked even though you have the ingredients etc?

[Onarr]

We are planning buffs for advanced meals. You must be playing solo with 300% loot or you just sit in your base and don't use any calories. I have to eat at least 6-10 cans a day to keep up with my action heavy play style which is sprinting/punching/mining non stop.

 

Just out of curiosity, where in the roadmap is this planned? From what I read:

1. Books

2. Vehicles

3. Legendaries

4. Performance

[Onarr]

And I honestly think your thinking is flawed. Lets see to raise your perception skill you have to aim down sights at least 500 hours. To raise your strength you have to find a pre war gym and watch your character do reps on various machines, and constantly be in a surplus of calories. To raise your intellect you have to collect a bunch of books with actual text and 500 pages, and flip through every page and answer a quiz at the end. To raise agility, yeah Oblivion had it right, you sneak for hours in real time by walking into a wall in the corner of a pub, and the other way would be to fall and break your leg repeatedly. If I haven't shown you the error of your LBD ways by now, I'll just show you the door instead.

 

(please do not bite my head off) I would not dismiss it outright. It does not fit for major skills (str, agility etc).

 

HOWEVER, for core activities it does:

 

Looting

Block damage

Weapon skills

Questing

Bartering

 

 

In the end its up to you as game designer, but I feel this would be best of both worlds. You avoid exploits and boring leveling like crafting 1000 stone axes and introduce a flexibility in regards to weapons and playstyle. Imho perks should add mostly QoL and enhancing playstyle (think perks like sex. trex, penetrator, sneaking etc.)

 

Also I feel that comparing LBD in skyrim and 7dtd is not entirely valid, because in this game, there is sense of urgency from 7d horde, that discourages from exploiting above mentioned.

[faatal]

We've thought of that faatal.

 

You need to see the end of the thread. Here's the link to CrainBramp's test results:

https://rebrand.ly/rwgtest-a18-bm

 

Try different game names. That is what the world seed is created from.

[Laz Man]

Ill pitch in, because I like the challenge.

 

Perception - Scavanger

Strength - Brute

Fortitude - Mountaineer

Agility - Stalker

Inteligence - Scholar

 

Here's my take...

 

Perception - Marksmen/Sniper

Strength - Infantry/Grunt/Soldier

Fortitude - Support/Supression

Agility - Recon/Assasin

Inteligence - Engineer/Tinkerer

[NukemDed]

some questions for you all

 

I am at work so cant test this. we see cooking pots in pois sitting there just ready to be picked up. if we put a pot down (can we even do that?) does it stay there indefinitely?

what about other items? some have models that look like the item (dropped a stun batton last night and saw it on the ground) and others have the brown bag thing. do all items with their own model persist once placed?

 

oh - and I wrenched a 3 drawer filing cabinet that was empty and it dropped a blue loot bag with about 10 items in it - including a q2 auger hooray - has anyone else seen that? got a screenshot if anyone is interested. and I think a yellow loot bag appeared from nowhere as well - I don't recall killing a z in that part of the compound...

[Frankencow]

I'm late to the whole balance thread, 'cause I've been too busy playing instead. I won't try to rehash the myriad of topics. Instead, some quick thoughts:

 

--I like the aspects that require hard choices, so keep them coming. Me, I'd be the guy who advocates a level cap so that the perks we choose mean something. But real choices with stark pros/cons across weapons, armor, food, weather, all of it, makes the game more fun. Keep those coming, please.

 

--Please resist the prompting to make the game (especially horde nights) easier. The tools and techniques are all there--just have to experiment a bit. I mean, yeah, party game stage scaling needs looked at, etc. but a little creativity in base design goes a long way. Also, my anecdotal observation is that some players still haven't truly learned all of the features in A18 and how they interact together. (Obviously there is no way that observation applies to ANYONE on this forum.) but on the server I play on there are so many people still acting like it is A17, and as a result they miss out on a ton of difference-makers. Sometimes (maybe not all times) "it is too hard" is code for "I still haven't explored all of the new mechanics in A18."

 

I just did a level 60+ horde night (game stage 300 something, I think) with no cheese ramps and nothing but a sledge, coffee, and an electric fence in my horde base. Demolishers galore. Never fired a single round. Lots of fall-back positions. That design wouldn't work for an agility build, but I'm confident some creative builds are out there that would.

 

Keep forcing us to problem solve.

 

--Haven't seen too much discussion on the new mood/environmental music system, but I dig it. Looking forward to seeing what else you do with it.

 

On to A19! (And if you could somehow make the offline modifier for land claim blocks work properly I'd basically be all set. I'm sure it is easy right?) ;-)

[mengseth]

Asphalt dosnt look like asphalt.. looks like forest ground. And when are you guys adding behemoth to the game?

[Trekkan]

B5 is... not working well for me.

 

Generated a new world, no mods.

 

I get a console error popup when logging into the game, and after about 60 seconds, I get an EAC client timeout error and get booted from the game.

 

When I rejoin the game, the time is reset to 00:00 every time.

 

[Weazelsun]

Feedback for the following mods - Barbed Wire mod, Metal Spikes mod, and the Chain mod in terms of what they should be installable on.

 

I say that they should be installable onto the sledgehammer, spear, and stun batons as well. Since the following don't really have much item mods for them and would help with getting rid of all those extra mods you find during looting.

[madcat1990]

A long time ago we were promised by devs that we'd have options to disable Post Processing and others alike to increase FPS.

 

It's been a while and I now have memorized that, to increase FPS I must type on the console:

 

gfx af enable 0

gfx pp enable 0

 

when are these gonna be made into an option in the video menu so we don't have to type these in each time?

[KhaineGB]

Oh. where can this patch be found? I was directed to your discord by another user to find the location, but might be easier to ask about it

(and I'm scared of discord servers )

The microsplat wrecks my computer aswell, which is scary since it's a relatively powerful gaming rig

 

It's SphereII's Legacy Distant Terrain mod. Should be on the launcher.

[KhaineGB]

LOL no. Maybe you should get your eyes checked.

 

What we are doing is adding a high performance switch to change to something better than the A17 hacked terrain that has huge fps gain, but is being patched to A18 so is off topic here as well as the farming nobody wants.

 

My eyes are absolutely fine, thank you.

 

You could just admit it was a poor decision.

 

And the assumption no-one wants the old farming is also incorrect. SOME people don't. SOME people prefer the new. SOME prefer the old.

 

It also completely breaks adding further biomes for modders due to the topsoil replacement nonsense... but that's getting out of scope.

[-Holo-]

Your max food and water increase with each level, so 50% is a moving target.

 

I got that part, but the part of when the thirst/hunger warning comes is what feels off. I'm now getting the thirsty warning when I'm at 106 water.

If the increased food/water per level is supposed to be a boon of getting better, shouldn't the warning come still at around 50 or less (value, not percent)?

[Gazz]

Yes, it is getting better because it's a percentage and the max increases.

Why are you saying that it does not?

 

Not looking up the number but 75% of 200 is a lot more than 75% of 100.

[-Holo-]

Yes, it is getting better because it's a percentage and the max increases.

Why are you saying that it does not?

 

Not looking up the number but 75% of 200 is a lot more than 75% of 100.

 

I have a terribly headache, but I think that's what I'm saying?

if the thirst nagging pops at 75%

 

75% of 100 means you have 75 (cl?) water in the stomach and feel thirsty

75% of 200 means you have 150 water in the stomach and feel thirsty

We're getting extra space for water in our stomach from leveling, but also getting thirsty at the same rate and getting a nag sbout it.

 

It just feels weird. But I'll just try to mod it to a fixed value to warn me when it's at 50 value.

[dcsobral]

Largest group size we've had was 6 at any point, but that wasn't a horde night. We had a Day 21 with 4 players that had 17 Demolishers, after a Day 14 that had numerous Feral Wights and Rads. The Day 28 where we had 40 Demolishers, the game stage was 234 for the party (5 players, individual GS 82, 81, 3x 73).

 

Is that only going to impact Horde Night, or would it impact wandering hordes and POIs done as groups as well?

 

Anything that uses gamestage for a group. With my modlet, you'd have gotten gamestage 127 instead. I actually had the wrong number there, so I just adjusted it, and it would now have given gamestage 158, which is closer to twice the top gamestage, which is what I was aiming for.

[Gazz]

I have a terribly headache, but I think that's what I'm saying?

if the thirst nagging pops at 75%

So you go from (same assumed numbers) 75 points of not-thirsty to 100 points of not-thirsty.

[Gothyc]

I have a terribly headache, but I think that's what I'm saying?

if the thirst nagging pops at 75%

 

75% of 100 means you have 75 (cl?) water in the stomach and feel thirsty

75% of 200 means you have 150 water in the stomach and feel thirsty

We're getting extra space for water in our stomach from leveling, but also getting thirsty at the same rate and getting a nag sbout it.

 

It just feels weird. But I'll just try to mod it to a fixed value to warn me when it's at 50 value.

 

Just to play the devil's advocate here.

 

Technically you're not getting the nag at the same rate. With 75 out of 100, you have 25 thirst "points" where you're not getting a nag. With 150 out of 200, you have 50 points before you get the nag. That's 50 vs 25 points where you're not getting a nag, all the while thirst increase

rate remains the same throughout the game, or perhaps even decreases with certain perks.

 

Not saying the system isn't confusing, but I just wanted to point this out.

[Wulf]

My eyes are absolutely fine, thank you.

 

You could just admit it was a poor decision.

 

Only 1 way to settle this. Post before and after screenshots, to let everyone see.

[-Holo-]

So you go from (same assumed numbers) 75 points of not-thirsty to 100 points of not-thirsty.

 

Just to play the devil's advocate here.

 

Technically you're not getting the nag at the same rate. With 75 out of 100, you have 25 thirst "points" where you're not getting a nag. With 150 out of 200, you have 50 points before you get the nag. That's 50 vs 25 points where you're not getting a nag, all the while thirst increase

rate remains the same throughout the game, or perhaps even decreases with certain perks.

 

Not saying the system isn't confusing, but I just wanted to point this out.

 

Yeah I see the point and the math of it, It just would make a lot more sense to me to have the warning at a set value instead of percentage.

If nothing else easier to grasp immidiatly

 

Does this mean when the ill effects of dehydration also increases as we level up though? Dying from thirst at 0 water goes to dying from thirst at 25 water?