Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[Hek Harris]

'Vehicle breakdown may give you food poisoning'-feature confirmed !

That's why I miss wellness and what could have be done with that feature Vehicle breakdown should lower your morale and add a risk to get sick later... Depressiveness should have is own bar...

[vonstorm]

I really hope that we will get events that are as random as they are difficult to manage.

 

Madmole seems slightly obsessed with the blood moon but to be honest it's far from being my favorite feature. During many alphas there was no blood moon and the game was no less awesome.

 

In a survival, we all seek a form of routine to ensure our safety. This routine must be jostled regularly by vicious devs (who said with a german accent ?) to keep the game exciting.

 

So yes, I want REAL random hordes that come running, I want my vehicle to crash, I want to be sick at the worst time, I want everything not to be predictable.

 

And I want rivers of tears on the forum, of course.

 

I also think that unpredictability is key to immersion. Wildly random is a bit too far. There are things you can do to tie it all together. I like the vehicle breakdown idea, but would prefer to see a needs (battery, radiator, wheel times x, engine) to help with immersion especially as it gives the skills a boost they need.

 

Random hordes seem to have abated, which is a shame. I was playing Empyrion and noticed that the spiders when hit do a random wide circular run, which if not reacted to will have you attacked from all sides pretty quickly. Simple mechanic that can compound into higher threat from low threat assets. When I was designing NWN servers my spawns would pick randomly from melee, healing, missile and magic. Once again that mixture could be either more effective or less effective for players and keep them on their toes. I can see that there are mechanics of the game not completely implemented, but if we can add random events that break up a grindy day and keep you focussed on your surroundings Im all for it. I also believe in sometimes having something you just have to run from, or the unwinnable situation that must be retreated from. Thats the fun survival part, more fun than eating and drinking

[Xtrakicking]

As long as the random breakdowns don't happen too often, I think it would be ok. If it just kept happening again and again and the only solution would be to spend points in Greasy Monkey, then it would just become a frustrating annoyance.

 

We've yet to see what vehicle mods will bring to the table, though.

[Liesel Weppen]

I also think that unpredictability is key to immersion. Wildly random is a bit too far.

[...]

 

Random hordes seem to have abated, which is a shame. I was playing Empyrion and noticed that the spiders when hit do a random wide circular run, which if not reacted to will have you attacked from all sides pretty quickly.

Also played Empyrion and it has some nice details, like you said the behaviour of spiders. But Empyrion is also a good example what happens without events like Bloodmoons. From some stage the game becomes pointless. Only thing you can do against that is PVP.

 

What i'd prefer would be different events with different difficulties occuring randomly, so not beeing predictable. Bloodmoon can be made (more or less) random already, which we already use.

 

I think about rimworld... of course its no FPS, but it has various different events happening. Heatwaves, coldwaves, pirateattack, alien poison ship landing nearby, bugs breaking out just in your base, "radiation" which makes only male or only female chars sick, manhunting animals, happening of foil which destroys all your plants if not countered in time.

 

Sure you can't apply them easily to 7d2d and maybe even if you can it would require features which are not in the game (yet). (Like a real weather-system, with local weather events that may even make your forrest biome become a snow landscape, plants will die in cold and heat, etc, or even (moving) poison fog clouds (like in Empyrion )

 

Id even appreciate mini-"bloodmoons"... Bloodmoon is just difficult, because it throws a ♥♥♥♥load of Zs on you. Wandering hordes are to easy on the other side, they are not even aggressive until triggerd. Why no occasionally attacks on your base, but not with full gamestage-power, but only maybe 10-25% of what would come on a real bloodmoon?

[madmole]

Yeah, I mean I was not bashing it or anything. Just saying I do not use vehicles now, for the most part, and will probably be less likely to use them with that mechanic. Just general feedback. The mechanic would not affect me much anyway lel.

 

Back when repair kits were harder to make, I would almost never use anything that required them, heh.

 

Now that repair kits are cheaper, I actually use guns and stuff, but I still use stone tools most of the time.

 

I just tend to stay low tech and conserve everything. I make a great partner in multiplayer.

 

You sound quite different from most players. The first thing I want is a vehicle and good guns and tools.

[madmole]

Coming back to the game after a 2ish year hiatus and really loving the direction the game is going in. It is looking beautiful, combat feels much more responsive, the new skill specialization is a home run, and there are plenty other things that I am really just having a great time with.

 

I am still taking in all the new changes before I can really give anything comprehensive, but I will say that while I do enjoy the ore nodes being visible above ground now, they seem a little too prevalent considering how powerful a functional mine is. It may be good to increase their rarity, reduce the total amount of ore blocks that can be found in a single vein, or make these locations a high heat area so there is a little more risk to the reward mining presents. I always thought it would be nice to have some specific underground threat you risk by digging down too far but not sure how that would work!

 

The risk/reward of settling and spending time around towns seems a little off as well since proximity to buildings is all reward without a lot of increased risk. I remember being constantly hunted in towns/cities and really enjoying that dynamic of only going in to the remnants of civilization when I was well prepared and that seems to be gone now.

 

Glad you like it!

 

We've talked about needing oxygen mining deep, but I'm not sure we need to make mining more complex. At later game its kind of a big time sink getting the ammo you need and I can't see any good reason to add complexity/risk to it.

 

Once we get town masks in they can respawn every day and have denser populations than the wild, right now its all one big setting for the entire biome.

[raowyn]

...is there not a way to craft springs, mechanical parts anymore?

[madmole]

okay I can maybe see this being alright, But Honestly I think if you plan to do that the wasteland need to become a bit more navigable by vehicles. as is it's impossible to drive 3 feet without hitting something in the wasteland and well, see my previous post. Constant repeated breakdowns stop being fun. Occasional dynamic ones that are avoidable through care sound like a game mechanic.

 

 

Also this. Similar thing to crashing into small rocks, if collisions are gonna break vehicles, fine, but make it so that everything isn't an indestructible wall to a vehicle.

 

This is where you are wrong. The player should have to spend time clearing/fixing the roads before it is even remotely something you could drive through. Put the player on foot until then I say, and let the fear kick in, and feeling of reward just getting one road safe to drive through it.

 

Only very large things aside from the shopping cart stop vehicles afaik. How about instead of thinking TFP has to do this or that, you remove yourself from your high pedestal, and put yourself in a scary situation, and get your self out of that situation through effort? Avoid the obstacles, clear the roads, and deal with the mechanics of that. Vehicles shouldn't be nearly invulnerable nor should the player be nearly invincible/untouchable once he has a bicycle. It needs to have some risks, that if properly managed are outweighed by the obvious advantages. If there are any unfair obstacles we'll sort that out.

[madmole]

So what happens when your armor hits 0 durability? I usually only notice by happenstance and can't tell if there's any effect.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

The roads are there for a reason my guy.

 

Check your armor rating, it should have lost the amount that piece grants.

[madmole]

Absolutely true as long as you have mods to put in them. But early game when scrounging is most important and your gear is the worst, it's a consideration.

 

But more to the point, why is stat RNG even a thing, what does it add other than standing around trying to figure out which pair of pants to wear? What's the point of having discrete levels if RNG causes them to overlap, even if it is just for armor? It seems like complexity for its own sake, and is frustrating for new players.

 

So the first purple you find isn't end game, and you keep looking for better ones. Random stats make it interesting and afaik, the player base loves them. The color just means it has higher roll probabilities and generally will be superior, but it adds a ton of choice which is good. Maybe degradation is annoying to you, so you choose a high degradation item with a little less damage than the higher damage one with less degradation.

[leaderdog]

Is the melee combat being worked on? There has been many demonstrations on how inconsistent it is.

 

As I mentioned in my thread about the melee mechanic, it shouldn't be that hard to hit a soccer ball on a slow moving teeball stand with a club.

[madmole]

It would be cool to link it with random events. For example you will overheat the engine and need to cool it down. The smoke will attract some zombies and you need to fend them off before you can continue

 

It's all about recreating all those horrific things that happen in the movies

[madmole]

I am a bit concerned that legendary items will overshadow most books. I think it is important that they either complement each other or have specific niches. It might be problematic if they did the same thing.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

It is going to be actual minigame? Or you will just stare at your car for x seconds?

 

Depends, I have like 3 designs now I will present to the team. Edit: Can we focus on balance? I'm as guilty as everyone else talking about new stuff but I don't have the time, so lets keep the thread about balance.

[madmole]

I sort of knew when TFP started using the word fun to describe why things were being changed or removed that it was going to eventually get taken too far. And now the community has latched on to that word like a vulture.

 

Not every game mechanic has to be fun in order to be balanced and present. Death isnt fun. Weapons needing repairs isnt fun. But they are vital to progression and resource sinking. Vehicle breakdowns will be no different. Right now vehicles are a ticket to ride free of any threats. Thats terribly unbalanced. And breakdowns CAN be fun. Imagine fending off a vehicle that broke down in the dead of night. It is quintessential tension.

 

Yes, well said! That is how I feel about it.

[vonstorm]

Also played Empyrion and it has some nice details, like you said the behaviour of spiders. But Empyrion is also a good example what happens without events like Bloodmoons. From some stage the game becomes pointless. Only thing you can do against that is PVP.

 

What i'd prefer would be different events with different difficulties occuring randomly, so not beeing predictable. Bloodmoon can be made (more or less) random already, which we already use.

 

I think about rimworld... of course its no FPS, but it has various different events happening. Heatwaves, coldwaves, pirateattack, alien poison ship landing nearby, bugs breaking out just in your base, "radiation" which makes only male or only female chars sick, manhunting animals, happening of foil which destroys all your plants if not countered in time.

 

Sure you can't apply them easily to 7d2d and maybe even if you can it would require features which are not in the game (yet). (Like a real weather-system, with local weather events that may even make your forrest biome become a snow landscape, plants will die in cold and heat, etc, or even (moving) poison fog clouds (like in Empyrion )

 

Id even appreciate mini-"bloodmoons"... Bloodmoon is just difficult, because it throws a ♥♥♥♥load of Zs on you. Wandering hordes are to easy on the other side, they are not even aggressive until triggerd. Why no occasionally attacks on your base, but not with full gamestage-power, but only maybe 10-25% of what would come on a real bloodmoon?

 

Agree with all of the above. Empyrion is more "make your own bloodmoon" after drone base is destroyed. Maybe an option tab "random events" would help those that think dying by a freak encounter is too harsh. Personally I like the (rare) possibility. The randomisation of the bloodmoon was an epic feature, and Id love to see unscripted aggressive mini hordes too. A good idea may be to spawn 2 or 3 small groups at different vectors, giving the surrounded feeling, instead of one large group conga lining.

[madmole]

I agree with this wholly. Some of our most memorable experiences occurred during some unplanned off the cuff moments involving failed base design on a hrode night or a wandering horde happening upon you during a poi hunt. Fun by the definition of it probably not. But memorable and exciting.

 

I can definitely see breakdowns and repairs if not over used becoming oh ♥♥♥♥ moments that are memorable. Things like your passenger fending off some running zeds while you frantically repair your car sound like perfect RP/story telling moments you can share. I think sometimes people take this a bit too seriously when it comes to just immersing and enjoying the overall experience.

 

Not everything needs to be telegraphed.

 

To me those emergent moments when planning fails and you somehow adapt and survive are the most memorable ones, to me and people who watch my videos. Falling through a spot I forgot to put bars on, my turret destroying my gyro, dropping my bow were all unplanned oh ♥♥♥♥ moments that happen.

[Jay_ombie]

So the first purple you find isn't end game, and you keep looking for better ones. Random stats make it interesting and afaik, the player base loves them. The color just means it has higher roll probabilities and generally will be superior, but it adds a ton of choice which is good. Maybe degradation is annoying to you, so you choose a high degradation item with a little less damage than the higher damage one with less degradation.

 

YES YES.. I one of many love the random stats. To be honest I love everything random as this means never ending variety and replay-ability.

 

 

MM

I know your working on possible breakdowns for vehicles, can you give us random vehicle specs to like with the weapons ?

 

i.e Speed, Durability, Fuel Capacity.

[madmole]

Thats because more often than not... they are. Not only saying for 7dtd but in many other games, they put in new features that end up being in the worst way possible. If your going to have bumpy roads/terrain cause it, you need to smooth out terrian in rwg a bit more, a ton more in the snow/desert biome, the snow mountains are in no ways smooth, they are super bumpy. I'd also like to see gas miledge be better if we are going to have to take the long way around at times. As with all new features I reserve final judgement till I try it for myself, but on paper it just sounds like nothing but an annoyance being put into the game for no reason other than to be annoying.

 

Do it yourself, its a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ed apocalypse.

[madmole]

I really hope that we will get events that are as random as they are difficult to manage.

 

Madmole seems slightly obsessed with the blood moon but to be honest it's far from being my favorite feature. During many alphas there was no blood moon and the game was no less awesome.

 

In a survival, we all seek a form of routine to ensure our safety. This routine must be jostled regularly by vicious devs (who said with a german accent ?) to keep the game exciting.

 

So yes, I want REAL random hordes that come running, I want my vehicle to crash, I want to be sick at the worst time, I want everything not to be predictable.

 

And I want rivers of tears on the forum, of course.

 

Put down the crack pipe there has been a horde night since the beginning. We added a red moon to help signify the event, but its been there since day 1. Put the blood moon on random then, there are options for it.

[madmole]

That's why I miss wellness and what could have be done with that feature Vehicle breakdown should lower your morale and add a risk to get sick later... Depressiveness should have is own bar...

 

I hated that ♥♥♥♥ in state of decay. Sorry I'm super positive/motivated IRL and going to role play if my character is happy/depressed etc, I don't need a game dictating how my character feels in various situations.

[madmole]

...is there not a way to craft springs, mechanical parts anymore?

 

Craft them with a wrench in your hand and aim at a car or bed.

[Spiked_Coffee]

So the first purple you find isn't end game, and you keep looking for better ones. Random stats make it interesting and afaik, the player base loves them. The color just means it has higher roll probabilities and generally will be superior, but it adds a ton of choice which is good. Maybe degradation is annoying to you, so you choose a high degradation item with a little less damage than the higher damage one with less degradation.

 

I'm growing to like it, made a decision yesterday...more powerful weapon, or more mod slots. Since I deemed adding a rad remover more important than the power I took the less powerful one. Darn you for making me think, and maybe do maths!

[vonstorm]

Craft them with a wrench in your hand and aim at a car or bed.

 

I got murky water, must have been a waterbed.

[madmole]

YES YES.. I one of many love the random stats. To be honest I love everything random as this means never ending variety and replay-ability.

 

 

MM

I know your working on possible breakdowns for vehicles, can you give us random vehicle specs to like with the weapons ?

 

i.e Speed, Durability, Fuel Capacity.

 

Maybe, that is a slippery slope because that means guys who find the schematics are only crafting brown ones.

[Vintorez]

Yeah I think I'd prefer just one quality for vehicles since everyone needs them, not just Int users. Would be nice if Grease Monkey also reduced gas usage to give it ongoing value.