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Viktoriusiii

A18 review in bulletpoints

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Well A18 experimental is out and I'm back from vacation. I have just finished Day 14 horde and feel qualified to give mass feedback.

 

I have finally seen what TFPs "vision" is that so many of the staff have mentioned.

Well... 7D2D isn't a horde survival crafting TD anymore... its a looter shooter. But its a damn fun looter shooter!

Don't take this the wrong way. Yes there is still all those elements, but they have taken a massive backseat with all these new weapons and increase in ammo. And if this was the vision, I understand it now.

If not, ammo needs to be reduced MASSIVELY (but later more)

 

 

First I will simply list all the stuff very simply and further below (maybe next thread) I will comment on why this is and what should be done instead.

Lets start with the good. There is too much to point out here, but these are the major points. These will not be all of them (small stuff like filling up bottles not draining a watersource would clutter stuff up)

 

1. huge rwg improvements!

2. poi upgrades are awesome

3. rage mechanic diversivies melee

4. balancing

5. better zombie spawns/sounds

6. awesome new weapons

7. no levelgates/perkrework/books/recipes

8. bugfixes

9. easier (but not dumbed down) crafting

(and much much MUCH more but I wanna give critical feedback so this will have to suffice)

The meh:

1. XP is still not really balanced.

2. loot tables are a bit weird to the point where looting safes is not as profitable as looting garbage

3. the new food system is not quite balanced/thought out.

4. repairing everything with iron and ductape feels weird

5. the music (personal reason, otherwise good)

 

The bad:

1. attributes still limit player freedom (although not as much as in A17)

2. Quests are again not viable again

3. trader prices are still very unbalanced (although better than any time before)

4. performance has gone down AGAIN. How? I thought you worked on this.

5. It is not the game I fell in love with, even though it is insanely fun.

The ugly:

1. melee combat is THE WORST it has ever been.

 

 

 

The good

1.There are mountains! There are hills! There are nearly no super steep slopes. There are small ponds and bigger waters. It feels awesome. I haven't tested too many maps yet, but the one I spawned in feels alive. (not pregen)

One small adjustment: maybe tone down the noise just A BIT. I like that wildernis is not easy to traverse by vehicle, but walking updownupdowndownupupdownupupupdowndowndown in the course of 15 blocks is A BIT much for my taste. Just smooth it smlightly.

 

2. I love the poi upgrades. They look and feel fantastic. Some, nay most of them you can still cheese by woodframing up there (or ladders or whatever), but they feel way less... cheaty (less Z's behind walls) and there are now actual indicators for broken floors (THANK YOU for listening. Now a keen eye can spot that there is something fishy and slow down)

 

3. I don't get why everyone is hating the rage mechanic so much. I feel like ppl that complain already play on lower difficulties, where its even easier to avoid them. But it brings a bit of change into an otherwise boring backtrack! Please don't listen. Although an option for it never hurts. (Some ppl like harder difficulties so turning down the difficulty to turn this off isn't an option)

 

4. there was so much balancing done its insane. From weapondamage to traderprices to craftingcost and so on.

not much to say. Continue and it will be balanced in 1-2 alphas.

 

5. not sure if Z's just make more sound now... but I haven't had a single zombie surprise me from behind yet. (those silent ninjas from A17 are gone) also inside pois zombies are much more... sensibly spread out!

Also except for vultures animals are MUCH fairer (dogs snarl and wolves howl so you have at least a chance to spot them before they spot you)

 

6. haven't tried most of them yet (am a sledge kinda guy and M60 hasnt droped as of yet) but it is awesome to diversivy the roster. Also granades are awesome and look and sound like they pack a punch. And the junk turrets are my new absolute favourite toy! If you need to absolutely nerf them, lower their shooting speed, although I feel they are pretty pricy for what they do)

 

7. THANK YOU. Its almost as if you listened to me when I was ranting about A17. Even though you said multiple times that I am wrong and that the developer knows best, you listened! You removed levelgates, reduced perkcosts (even though you level slower, but it FEELS better), you added books so exploring is rewarded more, you added recipes so you don't have to spec into for example cooking (although weapons and armor recipes are useless since oyu never want to craft lvl 1s EVER (since oyu need parts which you only get from the stuff itself)

You basicially took all my hate for A17 and bundled it to fix it. Even though technicially not THAT much has changed in the perk department (you still roughly need the same amount of zombiekills to get the same stuff) it feels like worlds apart! (maybe up XP by just a tiny bit, as it goes pretty slow)

 

8. too much to count, but the most claing one is the molotov that I can finally throw in a tunnel without it exploding in my face! GJ! (and a lot of other small things like seethrough ground and stuff)

 

9. I always hate when a game is dumbed down. So take it as even more of a compliment when I say that crafting has become easier (although I do not like parts for tools and melee weapons). I don't need 2 steel, 2 iron, 10 repair kits, 5 leather and some scrap to repair all my gear when im outside. Repairkit-> done (maybe make it stack more than 15 to up to 30 or 50 would be nice) and I like that you don't need an anvil (which you could craft with the forge anyways so it was just an extra step) to craft and so on and so forth. Really REALLY good simplification without making it feel dumbed down.

The meh

1. Looting containers gives 1-10 xp. I would need to loot 312 garbage bags to equal one Z kill.

Looting should give more xp (50 for something small like garbage and 1000 for something like a big gunsafe).

Since the amount of gunsafes is super limited, this will not do much (its one lumberjack or hawaiian guy) but it will feel less like I am beeing ridicouled. "I have killed 10000s of Z's! And I loot this super awesome military stach! "*10xp*

-_- Really? Not bad per se, just neither fair nor does it feel good (also I'm still of the opinion that books and magazines should give 1000xp. They cost 700 each and are rare. Tune it down to 750 or 500, but 50 feels same as above, like I'm beeing ridicouled)

 

2. garbage bags have magazines/books/recipes, they have glue/ducttape, they have oil and some other nice stuff too. While its nice to have nice stuff in garbage, something like small saves often have nothing of worth in them. Same with cars that now have nothing, chemical containers (those that break) have nearly nothing useful, while cardboard boxes often have big chunks of amm (once 70 in one box).

Don't take away the good stuff from junk... Just rebalance it a bit

 

3. I have read so much about infection and food illness...

And yet... I haven't had a single problem with it. The few times I risked it nothing happened and otheriwse I took vitamins or ate canned food. With that beeing said, most will hate me for this:

The whole system feels weird. Why is tea so perfect? why even have regular water when plants are EVERYWHERE.

And why can you find a magazine that teaches you how to purify water, when drinking is never EVER an issue from the moment you get a cookingpot?

Here I like the food changes. Although there is no intodote for it (only preemptively with vitamins). If there were something like the goldenrod tea but for food poisoning (like antibiotics), you could highten the chances of foodpoisoning. Make "Iron gut" worth the perk points! :D

 

4. I know I said I like that I only have one thing to repair everything, but thats why repair kits hsould cost more ressources... well be more diverse. Instead of 10 iron and 1 ducttape, make it 5 Iron, 1 ducttape, 5 leather and 1 oil.

This basicially makes them less cheap and it makes more sense why a repairkit out of some iron and ducttape can be the ultimate repairstation.

 

5. the music is nice. And I like that it is off as a standart. It is a bit too loud on standart settings (I put it on 15% and its still clearly noticable) but what I dislike is the sense of dread you feel when listening to it... as if I'm alone and all is lost... I guess that was the point... I personally like to think that I'm just working until I'm rescued and there is still hope ^^ put this under good. Great music (although sometimes drums are there when no Z's are close which is a bit confusing)

 

 

(continues in the next post)

Edited by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)
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The bad

1. Said this enough in A17. Not a fan of limiting your players freedom via attributes. Its not as bad as A17 and I'm very happy for it. But for me to use 3 different firearms, I need 3 attributes and 3 perks. Or if I wanna be a shotgun farmer who also has junkturrets... 3 Attributes and perks. Its just... so limiting... but for a lootershooter this is actually an okay system.

 

2. this has to do with haow small the reward is. 2000xp and 500 dukes and a random object. I get more from clearing a poi next door. Yes it has its benefits... and it is really fun. But I would like better rewards (especially in the xp and dukes department)... ALTHOUGH I haven'T done high tier quest... so maybe this point is invalid lategame.

 

3. Why is something "rare" like scrap plastic only worth a duke? Why has the trader such a hatred for me that He sells me stuff for such inflated prices on cretain items, but pays basicially nothing when I try and sell it?

The overall balance is nice. You don't earn too little, but you also don't get richt quick as was the case in A15-17

 

4. no words. had to activate occlusion and still had to lower some details to gain a reasonable framerate. Quite disappointed.

 

5. as I said at the start... 7d2d has become a lootershooter more to the likes of fallout combined with doom.

Z's aren't a threat (on nightmare and insane they are until you get a weapon, which you quickly get bc of the overabundance of loot). I actually OVERprepared my day 14 horde. I could have held that horde for five times as long as it was (and I have inflated gamestage bc of 300% xp). I started with 800 7.62 ammo and stopped at 400. But I also wasted way more than I needed to. Just because it was fun shooting them and because I knew nothing would stop me.

Molotovs, granades, pipebombs, one bladetrap, three iron doors and 2 junk turrets with 1000 ammo.

PLUS 800 7.64 ammo (Q4 with good dps) plus 170 shotgunammo plus 900 9mm (no smg yet).

 

So yeah... it was way too easy... but it was fun.

If they would increase zombiespawns everywhere now, this would be an awesome looter shooter.

Sadly, this is not the survival crafting game I fell in love with. Survival only comes from food, which is easily fixed and Z's are no threat whatsoever, since I can just get out a gun I have basicially unlimited ammo for (without crafting ANY, just quests and endroom loot WITHOUT exploiting it)

Sad to see it go... but also happy for this new looter shooter to emerge. Its really quite fun!

 

 

The ugly:

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?130294-What-is-wrong-with-melee

 

nothing more to say really. Melee is the absolute worst I have seen in any game. You have to gamble on every hit (as far as I have read this only applies to the old weapons, the newer ones are fine).

I had to turn down the difficulty from insane and "run" to warrior and normal speeds in the beginning, because I couldn't hit them.

The reduced range and the glancing blows adding on top of the weird swing he does.

Please watch Freshmins videos and fix whatever is wrong with melee!

 

 

 

 

So yeah... there isn't really all that much bad to say about A18. Good job! You fixed the most glaring issues and stuck to your vision. Its not the game I loved, but it has become a really really fun looter shooter. And when that was your intention, you succeeded!

Edited by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

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Thank you. I don't agree with every single thing but either way doesn't matter because it felt like a good disagreement on things but in a positive constructive matter.

 

A little busy so don't have time to go into everything but Ias far as food goes. I'm meh about not sure how to feel about it as our group is around day 40ish and I have yet to get any side effects from food or water but another member has had the side effects from food 5 times and 3 times from water. So idk think some work still needs done on it but if you ask them they would disagree so idk lol.

 

I get the food cost on a of things but why is it 5 raw meat for one grilled meat. All the food that had meat in it is all 5 raw meat. Not a fan of that but again it is meh and is something simple I can change in the files so not a big concern. Anyway gotta cut it here but again nice post.

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Yeah, melee feels wonky AF. I used to rely heavily on my club, but now I don't feel comfortable getting that stuck in... too many misses or glancing blows and feels like shorter range. On the other hand, baseball bat feels much better in a fight, so maybe something could be done to the club also.

 

Food. Yes, the food poisoning should just be implemented as the infection is. Incremental with certain de-buffs and a cure for it. I feel that would be the way to go.

 

Also, is it just me or game has a tendency to screw up your base by resetting parts of it (be it POI or your base)? I just had a game where "your bed is gone" (or something like that) popped up and *poof* goes my base. Everything on the roof of my base just reset (bedroll was on top of a gas station POI with all my stuff - forges, workbench and storage all gone).

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You have to absolutely _nail_ headshots now, but it's doable, it's a legitimate skill and when it's working it feels great. When it's not, I curse and scramble and just plain run away crying. As a fighting simulator, yeah, no. As a plausible-enough-if-you-squint-and-loads-of-fun game? I keep coming back for more.

 

POIs reset when they're quest targets, they're risky bases. The game should perhaps check for bedroll/lcb overlap and not give quests for those places.

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POIs reset when they're quest targets, they're risky bases. The game should perhaps check for bedroll/lcb overlap and not give quests for those places.

 

You mean when they become quest targets in general, or when you actively take that quest? I'm aware of the latter and did not take a quest on my base.

 

Also, my base on a previous map (it was a Nitrogen map though, but the base was built by me) also got screwed up... one half just disappeared.

Edited by eXSe (see edit history)

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I don't know about the reset timing, no clue what else would trigger a wipe, what else the game might think it was doing. Resets like that don't seem like just random-glitch territory though. You could keep OBS running with a replay buffer to show it happening if your rig's got some headroom,

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repair kits should cost more resources... well be more diverse. Instead of 10 iron and 1 ducttape, make it 5 Iron, 1 ducttape, 5 leather and 1 oil

 

Good lord no. We burn on average 40 Repair Kits per day. Getting enough Duct Tape is already a huge pain and you want to add Oil? Without a Chem station you will cripple MP groups.

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You mean when they become quest targets in general, or when you actively take that quest? I'm aware of the latter and did not take a quest on my base.

 

Also, my base on a previous map (it was a Nitrogen map though, but the base was built by me) also got screwed up... one half just disappeared.

 

It is rare but does happen. Not something I fully able to explain or really help with but some refer to it as a MD5. It happens on xbox all the time and been happening on PC long before then just don't hear about it to often.

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The bad2. this has to do with haow small the reward is. 2000xp and 500 dukes and a random object. I get more from clearing a poi next door. Yes it has its benefits... and it is really fun. But I would like better rewards (especially in the xp and dukes department)... ALTHOUGH I haven'T done high tier quest... so maybe this point is invalid lategame.

 

It becomes worse. The reward for high tier quests are marginally better but the quests typically occur in major POIs, like Skyscrapers and thus can easily take the entire day. But it's the only endgame we have so I still do them.

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It becomes worse. The reward for high tier quests are marginally better but the quests typically occur in major POIs, like Skyscrapers and thus can easily take the entire day. But it's the only endgame we have so I still do them.

 

but they give can give level 4 or high steel and motor tools. We rush the quests now because the rewards are decent, level 5 or 6 augers and chainsaws. The lower ones give antibiotics, we've gotten military armor from them as well.

 

Plus another benefit is that the poi is reset, that giant building you looted is now completely reset. You can go loot a building and then reset it to loot it again with the quest, you dont even have to finish the quest. This helps in longer loot respawn games as it might be the only respawn of that building you ever see if you play on no loot respawn.

 

I was actually talking about how the trader loot it kind of unfair. The nerf to traders that I heard about is well needed as they give some op stuff once you hit level 3 or 4 quests.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Good lord no. We burn on average 40 Repair Kits per day. Getting enough Duct Tape is already a huge pain and you want to add Oil? Without a Chem station you will cripple MP groups.

 

how do you use so many? with 2 of us we repair things every few days, maybe repair a few times a day if we are using the auger a lot.

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The ugly:

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?130294-What-is-wrong-with-melee

 

nothing more to say really. Melee is the absolute worst I have seen in any game. You have to gamble on every hit (as far as I have read this only applies to the old weapons, the newer ones are fine).

I had to turn down the difficulty from insane and "run" to warrior and normal speeds in the beginning, because I couldn't hit them.

The reduced range and the glancing blows adding on top of the weird swing he does.

Please watch Freshmins videos and fix whatever is wrong with melee!

 

 

The melee in this game has always felt TERRIBLE even in SP. Every swing seems to have some odd delay/lag to it making properly aiming hits near impossible on moving targets. And range always seems WAAAYYY off. zombies to far to hit with a club/sledge.. but they can swing/hit me at the same distance?

 

And that's on SP.. play on a server with any kind of latency and these are magnified even more so.

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MM has confirmed fixes are coming to the glancing system including another bug that caused outright misses(this thread was started before he mentioned it). I'll be doing some testing when the next patch comes out so lets hope it improves it.

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The ugly:

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?130294-What-is-wrong-with-melee

 

nothing more to say really. Melee is the absolute worst I have seen in any game. You have to gamble on every hit (as far as I have read this only applies to the old weapons, the newer ones are fine).

I had to turn down the difficulty from insane and "run" to warrior and normal speeds in the beginning, because I couldn't hit them.

The reduced range and the glancing blows adding on top of the weird swing he does.

Please watch Freshmins videos and fix whatever is wrong with melee!

 

 

 

 

So yeah... there isn't really all that much bad to say about A18. Good job! You fixed the most glaring issues and stuck to your vision. Its not the game I loved, but it has become a really really fun looter shooter. And when that was your intention, you succeeded!

 

I'm really not sure what i'm supposed to be seeing in the first video. Everything seems to be working fine.

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I have no trouble mele fighting, and find it even pretty easy, but that doesnt mean it does feel right. I know how I need to hit, and it works, but it doesnt feel good.

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I have no trouble mele fighting, and find it even pretty easy, but that doesnt mean it does feel right. I know how I need to hit, and it works, but it doesnt feel good.

 

Once you try to melee a running zombie with a sledgehammer on insane at the beginning, this goes from "doesnt feel right" to "I can't hit that damn thing!"

 

I have lowered the difficulty and speed and now I can also more or less hit them. Since they are slow. But a fast zombie can not be hit by it. Since the arc is so weird and glancing blows make it even harder... although MM said they fixed some stuff... lets hope and see next patch!

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I'm really not sure what i'm supposed to be seeing in the first video. Everything seems to be working fine.

 

Read the timestamps in the description.

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I have no trouble mele fighting, and find it even pretty easy, but that doesnt mean it does feel right. I know how I need to hit, and it works, but it doesnt feel good.

 

I agree especially for the Spear and Sledge sometimes there's not much feedback and I wonder did I connect? Or did they hit me and I have to check my health bar. It works but it's like I'm fighting the system to make it work.

 

Fists, blades, stun baton feels better in terms of reach, visual and audio feedback.

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I agree especially for the Spear and Sledge sometimes there's not much feedback and I wonder did I connect? Or did they hit me and I have to check my health bar. It works but it's like I'm fighting the system to make it work.

 

Fists, blades, stun baton feels better in terms of reach, visual and audio feedback.

 

Melee needs this. Interrupt animations as well as better jolting feedback when you hit a zombie. Sometimes they dont even flinch when you hit them other than a puff of blood and a sound effect:

 

"Fighting the system to make it work" means it needs more polish, but in saying that game development is not easy.

Edited by Freshmint (see edit history)

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Its weird I love the melee system in A18.

First time in 7DTD that I have pretty much given up bows.

 

 

I can play tit cricket with the strippers and slap the fat ladies derriere using glancing blows.

Though to play it properly I need zero mods and a low level bat.

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