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Thoughts on Demolishers


stample

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Depends on your game settings and GS ��.

I'm on day 25, 60 minute days, GS ~50-60, SP. Last BM horde didnt even have cops yet let alone demo guys. ��

 

SP and MP are two different worlds when it comes to the gamestage. The gamestages of the individual players are added together.

 

The formula can be found in the gamestages.xml:

 

 

 

This is how the gamestage of a party is calculated:

The gamestage of all (up to) 6 players is calculated.

The players are sorted by gamestage and only the 5 highest numbers go into the calculation.

 

The highest GS number is multiplied by "startingWeight".

This then loops down the list and "startingWeight" is reduced by "diminishingReturns" every time.

 

Example:

Players with GS 120, 30, 60, 91, 5, 80.

startingWeight= 1.7, diminishingReturns=0.22

 

So we get

120 * 1.70 = 204

91 * 1.48 = 134

80 * 1.26 = 100

60 * 1.04 = 62

30 * 0.82 = 24

5 (is ignored)

 

... or a total party GS of 524

 

 

 

The argument of the developers is probably that you can progress faster in multiplayer through specialization than in single player.

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SP and MP are two different worlds when it comes to the gamestage. The gamestages of the individual players are added together.

 

The formula can be found in the gamestages.xml:

 

 

 

This is how the gamestage of a party is calculated:

The gamestage of all (up to) 6 players is calculated.

The players are sorted by gamestage and only the 5 highest numbers go into the calculation.

 

The highest GS number is multiplied by "startingWeight".

This then loops down the list and "startingWeight" is reduced by "diminishingReturns" every time.

 

Example:

Players with GS 120, 30, 60, 91, 5, 80.

startingWeight= 1.7, diminishingReturns=0.22

 

So we get

120 * 1.70 = 204

91 * 1.48 = 134

80 * 1.26 = 100

60 * 1.04 = 62

30 * 0.82 = 24

5 (is ignored)

 

... or a total party GS of 524

 

 

 

The argument of the developers is probably that you can progress faster in multiplayer through specialization than in single player.

 

Which is how we get horde night with packs of demolishers within the first month on our server while we are still trying to build a jeep or craft enough ammo. Makes me want to seriously exploit the horrible AI to get through horde night.

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SP and MP are two different worlds when it comes to the gamestage. The gamestages of the individual players are added together.

 

The formula can be found in the gamestages.xml:

 

 

 

This is how the gamestage of a party is calculated:

The gamestage of all (up to) 6 players is calculated.

The players are sorted by gamestage and only the 5 highest numbers go into the calculation.

 

The highest GS number is multiplied by "startingWeight".

This then loops down the list and "startingWeight" is reduced by "diminishingReturns" every time.

 

Example:

Players with GS 120, 30, 60, 91, 5, 80.

startingWeight= 1.7, diminishingReturns=0.22

 

So we get

120 * 1.70 = 204

91 * 1.48 = 134

80 * 1.26 = 100

60 * 1.04 = 62

30 * 0.82 = 24

5 (is ignored)

 

... or a total party GS of 524

 

 

 

The argument of the developers is probably that you can progress faster in multiplayer through specialization than in single player.

 

Wasnt that already fixed in the last patch? Pretty sure I saw it in the patch notes.

 

I wonder if it was only mentioned in dev diary. I remember MM stating the game would take the GS of the highest player.

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Wasnt that already fixed in the last patch? Pretty sure I saw it in the patch notes.

 

I wonder if it was only mentioned in dev diary. I remember MM stating the game would take the GS of the highest player.

 

I heard rumor of it, but not sure if anything happened. Presumably the XML file has not changed; the spoiler above is exactly what it was last time I looked. For the record the resulting gamestage scaling for multi-player comes out as follows:

 

Baseline: Single player solo with gamestage = 100

 

2-players co-op: gamestage would be 318

3-players co-op: gamestage would be 444

4-players co-op: gamestage would be 548

5-players co-op: gamestage would be 630

 

It's far too high, especially for 2-player where just adding one more player to the mix has multiplied the gamestage by 3.18

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Wasnt that already fixed in the last patch? Pretty sure I saw it in the patch notes.

 

I wonder if it was only mentioned in dev diary. I remember MM stating the game would take the GS of the highest player.

 

Could have been changed to A18.1. I have A18 stable installed. Of course, the information in the gamestages.xml might be outdated.

 

In the release notes I didn't find anything on this topic so I don't know if something was changed.

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Wasnt that already fixed in the last patch? Pretty sure I saw it in the patch notes.

 

I wonder if it was only mentioned in dev diary. I remember MM stating the game would take the GS of the highest player.

 

He was referring to loot GS — not Horde GS. Horde GS is still calculated based on the gamestage of all players in a particular area (more or less). Depending on your difficulty level and how much xp you gain, you can have radiated zombies on the 7 day horde. On Grandspartan’s multiplayer series there were four players all around Gs40-50 on high difficulty and they had mostly radiated ferals on the 7 day horde.

 

In my opinion GS should be calculated based on the GS of all players. It would make no sense to base the horde GS solely on the GS of the highest player as this would be no different than how it works in solo games. More players, more DPS should mean harder hordes.

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In my opinion GS should be calculated based on the GS of all players. It would make no sense to base the horde GS solely on the GS of the highest player as this would be no different than how it works in solo games. More players, more DPS should mean harder hordes.

 

Sure you can't treat a multiplayer game like a single player game but the group gamestage is increasing incredibly fast. A day 7 horde for a group of 4 players equals about a day 42 horde for a single player.

 

You can't expect a group of 4 players to make the same progress as a single player who has four times as much time. In many ways they behave like single players and this results in friction losses. They may make twice or three times as much progress as a single player in the same time but for four times as much progress they would have to work together perfectly.

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Sure you can't treat a multiplayer game like a single player game but the group gamestage is increasing incredibly fast. A day 7 horde for a group of 4 players equals about a day 42 horde for a single player.

 

You can't expect a group of 4 players to make the same progress as a single player who has four times as much time. In many ways they behave like single players and this results in friction losses. They may make twice or three times as much progress as a single player in the same time but for four times as much progress they would have to work together perfectly.

 

We need to raise awareness on this in the dev diary if the devs havent already commented on this. It sounds like it still needs some balancing based on the comments in this thread.

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Sure you can't treat a multiplayer game like a single player game but the group gamestage is increasing incredibly fast. A day 7 horde for a group of 4 players equals about a day 42 horde for a single player.

 

You can't expect a group of 4 players to make the same progress as a single player who has four times as much time. In many ways they behave like single players and this results in friction losses. They may make twice or three times as much progress as a single player in the same time but for four times as much progress they would have to work together perfectly.

 

I’m not saying the current iteration of the formula is correct. I’m just saying that multiplayer hordes should have a higher game stage than a single person horde. More players equals more dps regardless of progress. This doesn’t even take into account the ability of groups to specialize and be more efficient with crafting, resource gathering, and quest clearing. I don’t know what the sweet-spot is. Maybe the starting multiplier should be 1.5 instead of 1.7. If this value is exposed in the xml, server owners should tweak this to their liking, if the value isn’t exposed I think this is the more important ask from TFP since different groups will have different preferences on horde GS.

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I don’t know what the sweet-spot is. Maybe the starting multiplier should be 1.5 instead of 1.7. If this value is exposed in the xml, server owners should tweak this to their liking, if the value isn’t exposed I think this is the more important ask from TFP since different groups will have different preferences on horde GS.

 

I have taken a closer look at the gamestages.xml. Apparently the example in the file is outdated. In the file the startingWeight is 1 instead of 1.7. So they have already reduced it.

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I’m not saying the current iteration of the formula is correct. I’m just saying that multiplayer hordes should have a higher game stage than a single person horde. .

 

Er....they do. Have you not read the thread?? It is the ridiculously high increase in gamestage seen in multi-player that we are complaining about!!

 

Right now, if a solo player has gamestage of X, then two identical such players playing co-op have gamestage of 3.18X.

 

I might not be understanding what you are saying though, you seem to understand the formula but keep saying weird things like I quoted above.

 

I have 2 concurrent play-throughs on the go. One solo, one with 1 friend co-op. Settings are identical in every way.

 

My solo play is super easy. No threat. No real danger of death. First 3 Hordes were handled with a tier 2 Pistol. The day 21 horde (at which I was gamestage 90) took about 400 Pistol rounds. Temporary re-enforced concrete base was untouched.

 

The multi-player was totally different, and the horde on day 21 (when I was gamestage 100) was a nightmare with endless Cops and a ton of Demolishers. We fired 2000+ rounds, mostly rifle rounds from AKs and some shotgun. There was absolutely no comparison between the two experiences. We lost our temporary re-enforced concrete base in the MP game.

 

The difference was that since the co-op game uses a scaled up gamestage for the Horde, our effective gamestage was 320.

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Er....they do. Have you not read the thread?? It is the ridiculously high increase in gamestage seen in multi-player that we are complaining about!!

 

Right now, if a solo player has gamestage of X, then two identical such players playing co-op have gamestage of 3.18X.

 

I might not be understanding what you are saying though, you seem to understand the formula but keep saying weird things like I quoted above.

 

I have 2 concurrent play-throughs on the go. One solo, one with 1 friend co-op. Settings are identical in every way.

 

My solo play is super easy. No threat. No real danger of death. First 3 Hordes were handled with a tier 2 Pistol. The day 21 horde (at which I was gamestage 90) took about 400 Pistol rounds. Temporary re-enforced concrete base was untouched.

 

The multi-player was totally different, and the horde on day 21 (when I was gamestage 100) was a nightmare with endless Cops and a ton of Demolishers. We fired 2000+ rounds, mostly rifle rounds from AKs and some shotgun. There was absolutely no comparison between the two experiences. We lost our temporary re-enforced concrete base in the MP game.

 

The difference was that since the co-op game uses a scaled up gamestage for the Horde, our effective gamestage was 320.

 

Sounds like the game needs some tuning needs to be done then.

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I´d prefer a slower progess. Instead of having steelbases at day 21 the forge should be unlocked at that point. Introduce scrap iron tools/weapons and get rid of crappy mutants. But meh, just putting in a supermutant is easier i guess. Also less ammo and guns.

 

Forge way later, less of an FPS based gameplay would make mutants obsolete. Meh.

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I’m not saying the current iteration of the formula is correct. I’m just saying that multiplayer hordes should have a higher game stage than a single person horde. More players equals more dps regardless of progress. This doesn’t even take into account the ability of groups to specialize and be more efficient with crafting, resource gathering, and quest clearing. I don’t know what the sweet-spot is. Maybe the starting multiplier should be 1.5 instead of 1.7. If this value is exposed in the xml, server owners should tweak this to their liking, if the value isn’t exposed I think this is the more important ask from TFP since different groups will have different preferences on horde GS.

 

Except it's allready made more difficult by the increased number of spawns.

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Can always do a plan B and a plan C too, in case plan A fails.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30404[/ATTACH]

 

Wait, I gotta know. IF there are automated doors, and we have trigger floor plates....can we rig several doors so that if a zed conga line comes running up on horde night and heads to a door thats open. It triggers a switch and closes that door, and also opens a door on another path. So the zeds.....ALL of them turn around and head for that other path to run through that door....AND OF COURSE...trigger another plate that closes that door and sends them to a third doors path.......which has another floor plate that closes that door and sends them back to the first door? Just wondering if this would solve all our problems with OP horde nights.

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Wait, I gotta know. IF there are automated doors, and we have trigger floor plates....can we rig several doors so that if a zed conga line comes running up on horde night and heads to a door thats open. It triggers a switch and closes that door, and also opens a door on another path. So the zeds.....ALL of them turn around and head for that other path to run through that door....AND OF COURSE...trigger another plate that closes that door and sends them to a third doors path.......which has another floor plate that closes that door and sends them back to the first door? Just wondering if this would solve all our problems with OP horde nights.

 

As far as i know, it is only possible to open a closed door with electricity, not close it. Perhaps there is a sneaky way to invert a signal, i just don't know that yet. I tried with powerbalancing, but no success.

The only way i think you'll be happy with is just edit the xmls so no demolisher shows up. No fancy building trick or dedicated ammo. Just remove the problem, once and for all(well, all that you play the game with, that is).

Gives you more freedom for hordebase designs too. If i was to actually play for a long time, i'd might just do that too, instead of worrying if i get a demolisher too many.

How to edit it out i do not know well enough. Perhaps some of the xml gurus can help with that.

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As far as i know, it is only possible to open a closed door with electricity, not close it. Perhaps there is a sneaky way to invert a signal, i just don't know that yet. I tried with powerbalancing, but no success.

The only way i think you'll be happy with is just edit the xmls so no demolisher shows up. No fancy building trick or dedicated ammo. Just remove the problem, once and for all(well, all that you play the game with, that is).

Gives you more freedom for hordebase designs too. If i was to actually play for a long time, i'd might just do that too, instead of worrying if i get a demolisher too many.

How to edit it out i do not know well enough. Perhaps some of the xml gurus can help with that.

 

 

Somebody already pointed out that the easiest way to remove them in the xml is to replace their spawn with another zeds name and you would get whatever you replaced them with instead of demolishers. I would rather not do that to the other people on the server since they have yet to enjoy the full love and attention that 4 spawned demolishers can bring to the unsuspecting rear of new players. Oh lucky them. But until I can figure out a way to actually kill these guys without getting completely wiped out I will just be using POI's for horde night rather than spending 2 or 3 days rebuilding reinforced concrete every time. The resource dump required is just too insane as it is, I would rather spend at least a couple days raiding POI's or running missions instead of just making ammo and concrete.

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