A18 Attribute huge step in right direction, but room for improvement.

[Dadpool12a]

I really like the direction that A18 attributes are headed in and I'm having a lot of fun playing A18, however I believe the attributes/skills still need a few tweaks.

 

In A17 I often felt I was required to buy attributes, now in A18 I feel I'm wasting points sometimes to get skills that I want. The main reason I feel this way is that Perception, Strength, Fortitude, Agility, and Intellect are in name only and do not add any additional benefit If I do not use the specific weapon they buff. It is like having to buy a shotgun skill when I use machine guns in order to learn to cook. I believe this could be easily fixed by just combining existing skills with the attributes. With the main attributes not having additional benefits my friends and I don't like to branch into other trees especially in the early game as we do not get stronger and our game stage increases. We typically plow into one tree until we hit 40 and then slowly branch out.

 

My suggestions to improve attributes.

 

Perception and Lucky Looter combined. I would be more inclined to grab a point of perception if it increased the loot I received. Of course you would receive less benefit per point as it was stretched over 9 points instead of 5. Replace Lucky Looter with sharpshooter skill that increases damage of all ranged attacks +X% to +X%.

 

Strength and Pack Mule combined. This just makes sense to me. Replace Pack Mule with brute skill that increases damage of all melee attacks +X% to +X%.

 

Fortitude and Well Insulated combined. Well insulated is a skill that I would not grab unless I was forced to live in the snow/desert. It makes sense combining a weak skill with an attribute. Replace well insulated skill with tank skill that increase max health by +X to +X.

 

Agility and Parkour combined. Parkour is just my suggestion because this seems like a fun skill and not a required skill. Another could easily fit in here, I was just trying to place quality of life skills into the attributes and not combat skills. Replace Parkour skill with dodge skill that decreases damage revived when not wearing armor by -X% to -X%.

 

Intellect, Charismatic Nature, Advanced Engineering, and lvl 10 make T6 items combined. Replace Advanced Engineering with Advanced Engineering that has improved versions of all the items provided by the original advanced engineering. Example Advanced Forge "Has three slots instead of two to add resources". Advanced workbench "Has X% chance to refund some resources when crafting"

 

I also feel like Animal Tracker and Huntsman should be combined. Animal Tracker is not worth the points by itself until you are about lvl 60. By that time you should not have any problems with food.

 

Master Chef should have a few recipes that are improved versions of existing food that you cannot find a recipe in the world. The improved versions should require additional ingredients with added benefit.

 

Again, absolutely enjoying the game. These are just suggestions.

[Kalarro]

Yup, agree. I like the new direction too, but I also feel too often like Im wasting points. The perk lines that have no other bonuses than crafting things need either to get bonuses or make some of their recipes not lootable.

[Limdood]

I somewhat agree with the premise...

 

Gaining attribute points is quite underwhelming.

 

What do I care that ski goggles add +1 agility? In A17, adding 1 strength added melee and tool damage, +1 perception affected all ranged damage...endurance was health and agility was stamina.

 

Now in A18, the only use for those stat boosting items is to cheat a point ahead If you find one in the tree you're specializing in, and then never take it off, or for the secondary bonuses.

 

That being said, splitting up the skills into several different branches so that you can't simply build a cookie cutter perfect build of each specific skill you want...you need to choose what to take and where to advance, and the decisions become more meaningful and help to shape your playstyle...If you went deep into endurance, then you might as well use heavy armor instead of light. If you're grabbing a bunch of perception, you might prefer a rifle and a spear over a sledge and a shotgun.

 

I'll also say that the new A18 version of the attributes and skills actually opens up the game more...no longer do people feel they need to main strength and Int. Now any specialization is viable, any pair of specializations is viable, and surprisingly even no specialization is quite strong (that was my experiment with the newest build...played a generalist up to 50 so far...attributes at 3,3,5,1,6, which let me get a bunch of really handy skills, and the flexibility of the build allows me to easily swap weapons...from club to spear to knife to sledge if I find a significantly better one).

[Luzifer]

After reading the patchnotes and looking through the different kinds of schematics, i decided to not skill into anything other than stuff that helps me survive. Stuff like darin adventurer, healing factor, living off land(tho only 1 point), salvage ops/motherlode/miner69 for ressources, as i find it a waste of points to skill into something that lets me craft an item like vehicle, weapons ect if i might as well just go loot to get schematics of everything i need instead.

[Kalarro]

After reading the patchnotes and looking through the different kinds of schematics, i decided to not skill into anything other than stuff that helps me survive. Stuff like darin adventurer, healing factor, living off land(tho only 1 point), salvage ops/motherlode/miner69 for ressources, as i find it a waste of points to skill into something that lets me craft an item like vehicle, weapons ect if i might as well just go loot to get schematics of everything i need instead.

 

Exactly. And I dont think that feeling is a good thing. They improved looting in detriment of other things, instead of in addition. (not sure if that sentence makes sense in english xD)

[Demolitionist1]

The only major complaint I have with the update is to get a crucible, you need to have advanced engineering 5 or get the crucible schematic. Anyone know where to get it besides the trader?

[Katitof]

The only major complaint I have with the update is to get a crucible, you need to have advanced engineering 5 or get the crucible schematic. Anyone know where to get it besides the trader?

 

Random loot.

 

I've just got actual crucible while looting red mesa complex.

[Dragonsblade71uk]

The only major complaint I have with the update is to get a crucible, you need to have advanced engineering 5 or get the crucible schematic. Anyone know where to get it besides the trader?

 

I actually found 1 in a POI, so that's another way to get 1.

[Colin248]

MY issue with alpha 18 is how the basic attributes are kinda lame and boreing. for example, ive gone heavily into perception... cool! so what does it do? it increases my.... damage with the weapons of that tree.... ok... what about strength? surely being strong means i deal more damage with ALL melee we- no no, jsut with whats in the tree.... and they are all the same. its boring, the initial stats themselves are basicly just a gateway for entry to the perks you actuly want.

 

each Stat should give some buff to your character that increases. intelligence should give a exp bonus, like %5 or %10 per level. perception should give icons on your compass at varying distances for when you can sense zombies. fortitued should increases health and your food+water meter max, agility should effect your stamina max. just.... a little something to make skilling into different stats worthwhile, not just the perks in the various trees.

[Scyris]

Yeah I kinda agree the stats need to do something other than just headshot and dismember chance. That is one of the issues with the current system, the other issue I find is certan stats just have must have perks, Str has: Sex rex, miner 69'er, motherload, 3 perks pretty much anyone wants. Fort has healing factor, Living off the land and heavy armor. Agi really has.. nothing of value as a must have, nor does perception. Int has a ton of crafting stuff but, as people have said, you can loot, or buy, or get the schematics to make a lot of things so there is much less reason to get intel. Intel's weapons also are complete trash pretty much so even less of a reason to go that build.

 

Due to effect resistance actually working in a18, and if you play above adventurer, you wanna use heavy armor. Its quite easy to get 60-65 armor rating quite early with iron armor. Thats 60-65% dmg reduction. Normal zombies hit for 15 on warrior difficulty and fatties for 30 or so. so cutting that by 60-70% is huge. Hell even a set of padded armor from cloth and duct tape is almost 40 armor rating at tier 1. Its one of my first things I try to make early game as it'll save your life.

 

Weapon wise I am partial to pistols mainly, as they have good damage in a18 and very common ammo. Which kinda in a way sucks, as its hard for me to justify going agility, when str or fort just offers much more generally useful things in it. Archery is pretty much dead, as feathers are rare as hell, they nerfed the nest spawn rate and how many feathers you get from the nests a wee bit too hard. To the point it made archery really not that viable past adventurer difficulty.

 

Which brings me to another problem, as they dropped the default difficulty to adventurer, the weapons are generally balanced towards that, which is why most of the melee weapons are so bad in terms of damage values. Try using fists early game, see how long it takes you to kill a zombie on warrior difficulty with those 8 dmg knuckle guards you can make. in A17 I rarely used guns, in a18, I use guns anytime I can, as the melee weapons other than say sledge hammers and clubs just aren't hard hitting enough to kill anything fast.

[Brian9824]

Exactly. And I dont think that feeling is a good thing. They improved looting in detriment of other things, instead of in addition. (not sure if that sentence makes sense in english xD)

 

I think that's what makes it good. I mean if you rely on RNG you can be completely screwed and find everything but workbench or forge schematic and not be able to craft any advanced items. That's bad, and the skill system provides a way to negate RNG while still rewarding you with luck.

[HungryZombie]

MY issue with alpha 18 is how the basic attributes are kinda lame and boreing. for example, ive gone heavily into perception... cool! so what does it do? it increases my.... damage with the weapons of that tree.... ok... what about strength? surely being strong means i deal more damage with ALL melee we- no no, jsut with whats in the tree.... and they are all the same. its boring, the initial stats themselves are basicly just a gateway for entry to the perks you actuly want.

 

each Stat should give some buff to your character that increases. intelligence should give a exp bonus, like %5 or %10 per level. perception should give icons on your compass at varying distances for when you can sense zombies. fortitued should increases health and your food+water meter max, agility should effect your stamina max. just.... a little something to make skilling into different stats worthwhile, not just the perks in the various trees.

 

If they got rid of the terms "Perception, Strength, etc." and changed the perk trees instead into classes or character types, would it make things better in your opinion?

 

By what I mean to ask is, is it just the fact that they call a tree "Strength" what doesn't makes sense to you since you don't deal more damage with all melee. Or rather is it that you just want 1 perk to effect melee and don't want to be limited in weapons?

[Dadpool12a]

If they got rid of the terms "Perception, Strength, etc." and changed the perk trees instead into classes or character types, would it make things better in your opinion?

 

By what I mean to ask is, is it just the fact that they call a tree "Strength" what doesn't makes sense to you since you don't deal more damage with all melee. Or rather is it that you just want 1 perk to effect melee and don't want to be limited in weapons?

 

Actually, yes.

 

Calling it Perception or Strength is misleading. I would suggest TFP merge the skills like I suggested above or rename them to classes.

 

Perception to Marksman

Strength to Bruiser

Fortitude to Scrapper

Agility to Rogue

Intelligence to Macgyver

 

Otherwise it is rather misleading.

[HungryZombie]

Actually, yes.

 

Calling it Perception or Strength is misleading. I would suggest TFP merge the skills like I suggested above or rename them to classes.

 

Perception to Marksman

Strength to Bruiser

Fortitude to Scrapper

Agility to Rogue

Intelligence to Macgyver

 

Otherwise it is rather misleading.

 

Ok fair enough. I'm not opposed to that at all but I do like things they way they are too. I don't see them as stats as much as builds. The strong guy, the fast guy, the smart guy, etc.

[Psychodabble]

I really like the direction that A18 attributes are headed in and I'm having a lot of fun playing A18, however I believe the attributes/skills still need a few tweaks.

 

In A17 I often felt I was required to buy attributes, now in A18 I feel I'm wasting points sometimes to get skills that I want. The main reason I feel this way is that Perception, Strength, Fortitude, Agility, and Intellect are in name only and do not add any additional benefit If I do not use the specific weapon they buff. It is like having to buy a shotgun skill when I use machine guns in order to learn to cook. I believe this could be easily fixed by just combining existing skills with the attributes. With the main attributes not having additional benefits my friends and I don't like to branch into other trees especially in the early game as we do not get stronger and our game stage increases. We typically plow into one tree until we hit 40 and then slowly branch out.

 

My suggestions to improve attributes.

 

Perception and Lucky Looter combined. I would be more inclined to grab a point of perception if it increased the loot I received. Of course you would receive less benefit per point as it was stretched over 9 points instead of 5. Replace Lucky Looter with sharpshooter skill that increases damage of all ranged attacks +X% to +X%.

 

Strength and Pack Mule combined. This just makes sense to me. Replace Pack Mule with brute skill that increases damage of all melee attacks +X% to +X%.

 

Fortitude and Well Insulated combined. Well insulated is a skill that I would not grab unless I was forced to live in the snow/desert. It makes sense combining a weak skill with an attribute. Replace well insulated skill with tank skill that increase max health by +X to +X.

 

Agility and Parkour combined. Parkour is just my suggestion because this seems like a fun skill and not a required skill. Another could easily fit in here, I was just trying to place quality of life skills into the attributes and not combat skills. Replace Parkour skill with dodge skill that decreases damage revived when not wearing armor by -X% to -X%.

 

Intellect, Charismatic Nature, Advanced Engineering, and lvl 10 make T6 items combined. Replace Advanced Engineering with Advanced Engineering that has improved versions of all the items provided by the original advanced engineering. Example Advanced Forge "Has three slots instead of two to add resources". Advanced workbench "Has X% chance to refund some resources when crafting"

 

I also feel like Animal Tracker and Huntsman should be combined. Animal Tracker is not worth the points by itself until you are about lvl 60. By that time you should not have any problems with food.

 

Master Chef should have a few recipes that are improved versions of existing food that you cannot find a recipe in the world. The improved versions should require additional ingredients with added benefit.

 

Again, absolutely enjoying the game. These are just suggestions.

 

Very good post. I endorse these changes.

[ApocNizmith]

I'll also say that the new A18 version of the attributes and skills actually opens up the game more...no longer do people feel they need to main strength and Int.

 

Actually you still are forced into STR INT build early game solo, no way around it. You need Miner69er to improve your tools, and Motherlode to mass mats efficiently as you have no assists grabbing that stuff for you. You need to spec into INT ASAP to gain access to a forge as everything now requires Forged Iron to fix with the repair kits costing 1 duct tape, 1 forged iron otherwise you'll be running stone tools for a very long time. Also with the nest nerfs to feathers you will need to run melee early game in order to clear zeds, and for basic self defense. STR/INT build is still a mandatory thing IMO at least until around lvl 40-50 at least.

 

Then there is the Master Chef, Pack Mule, and Trex perks which are must haves IMO as you will get caught by a zombie with no stam to run or to defend yourself via melee, as swinging a tool will eat your stam very rapidly. In testing it is more effiecient to lvl this perk over max stamina as you will swing for longer with 100 stam and max trex than you will with 200 stam and no trex.

 

INT is also needed for basic crafting benches, I.E. Workbench, Mixers, Forges, Chem Station. Not specing strength and INT early game you put yourself at a massive disadvantage.

[P!nk]

Int has a ton of crafting stuff but, as people have said, you can loot, or buy, or get the schematics to make a lot of things so there is much less reason to get intel. Intel's weapons also are complete trash pretty much so even less of a reason to go that build.

 

I disagree. I find my INT build EXTREMELY satisfying. I love walking around with my double turrets and my stun baton with a fire mod, mass-electrocuting and decapitating zombies while my turrets keeps them in check by stunning them to oblivion.

 

I also function as our crafter/builder while others are scavenging for food and raw materials.

 

We all have a different way of playing the game, and I've always loved to be the sneaky-sneak guy, but this electric-turret-semi-melee build is an absolute blast.

 

But I do agree with the initial strength, intellect, agility points being a tad too boring.

[SickPuppy]

I've had the exact same thoughts as OP since introduction of new attribute system in a17. It's a pain to play around creating the character I want, putting points into empty attributes just to get to a skill I want.

 

Attributes should buff skills in that tree not just do zombie damage.

 

(Gawd I miss lbd, I know i know it's never coming back)

[Guest]

TFP's implementation of skills & perks is so weird. There's RPG-like stats, but they don't do RPG-like things (save for arbitrarily buffing some weapons); they're just gates for the perks. The perks themselves range from virtually useless to "take this or suffer", and are rendered moot a good deal of the time thanks to the schematics you find. Some skill trees have generalist perks associated with them, others don't, so specializing in the "wrong" tree forces you to spend more points for overall quality of life (i.e. players need to mine, but strength builds are the only thing seriously enabling mining).

 

I don't know, it seems like this setup is really hard to get right. Maybe a stat-less skill tree similar to Dying Light, Borderlands or other games that borrow from RPG systems would've been better.

[SickPuppy]

TFP's implementation of skills & perks is so weird. There's RPG-like stats, but they don't do RPG-like things (save for arbitrarily buffing some weapons); they're just gates for the perks. The perks themselves range from virtually useless to "take this or suffer", and are rendered moot a good deal of the time thanks to the schematics you find. Some skill trees have generalist perks associated with them, others don't, so specializing in the "wrong" tree forces you to spend more points for overall quality of life (i.e. players need to mine, but strength builds are the only thing seriously enabling mining).

 

I don't know, it seems like this setup is really hard to get right. Maybe a stat-less skill tree similar to Dying Light, Borderlands or other games that borrow from RPG systems would've been better.

 

I'd throw in path of exile's skill map, but that might be too big an overhaul, it's fun just spending hours on a character building tool for that game.

 

The perk system is the one thing I hope devs re design, it's the one sore point in a very solid a18.

[Kalarro]

I agree, the perk system is pretty weird.

 

Some skills you almost always need, but that can be locked if you decide on using a different weapon, some skills that will be unlocked by recipes making them total waste, some skills that require pretty high level to reach, but the items they grant can just be looted at the first levels, some skills that even requiring a heavy investments only need to be used once and then you better respec out of them....

 

many things dont make much sense.

[Scyris]

Actually you still are forced into STR INT build early game solo, no way around it. You need Miner69er to improve your tools, and Motherlode to mass mats efficiently as you have no assists grabbing that stuff for you. You need to spec into INT ASAP to gain access to a forge as everything now requires Forged Iron to fix with the repair kits costing 1 duct tape, 1 forged iron otherwise you'll be running stone tools for a very long time. Also with the nest nerfs to feathers you will need to run melee early game in order to clear zeds, and for basic self defense. STR/INT build is still a mandatory thing IMO at least until around lvl 40-50 at least.

 

Then there is the Master Chef, Pack Mule, and Trex perks which are must haves IMO as you will get caught by a zombie with no stam to run or to defend yourself via melee, as swinging a tool will eat your stam very rapidly. In testing it is more effiecient to lvl this perk over max stamina as you will swing for longer with 100 stam and max trex than you will with 200 stam and no trex.

 

INT is also needed for basic crafting benches, I.E. Workbench, Mixers, Forges, Chem Station. Not specing strength and INT early game you put yourself at a massive disadvantage.

 

Actually I do fine completly ignoring intel in A18, I get adv engineering level 1 cuz it doesn't require any other investment for the forge speed increase. Can get schematics for everything else, as for workbench etc, can use ones in poi's when playing single player as no one to worry about stealing your stuff. My current game on warrior difficulty, I found the workbench AND chem station schematics on day 6, trader also had a workbench for sale for 4k on day 7 as well. Stats I focus on early game is srt and fort. Str cuz it has the only decent melee weapons, and it has must have perks like sex t-rex, miner 69'er, motherload. Fort I get for Healing factor, heavy armor, living off the land 1 and pain tolerance as pain tolerance's 25% health loss reduction stacks on top of armor after the armor reduction is applied.

 

I love the pistol in a18, but I just can't justify wasting points in agility, just for pistol use, when it really offers nothing else i'd consider bothering with. Same for intel, there are schematics now, and I am used to using workbenches and such out in the world, I do wish I could craft faster though thats the only downside to no int. Then again I suppose I could just ruin 2 chem labs to mass produce gunpowder faster. Takes me 150+ minutes real time to make 4000 gun powder. I also do not take the lock picking skill in perception as I feel its overpowered for a skill you can get with 0 investment. IMO it should require 6 perception for level 1.

[Scyris]

I agree, the perk system is pretty weird.

 

Some skills you almost always need, but that can be locked if you decide on using a different weapon, some skills that will be unlocked by recipes making them total waste, some skills that require pretty high level to reach, but the items they grant can just be looted at the first levels, some skills that even requiring a heavy investments only need to be used once and then you better respec out of them....

 

many things dont make much sense.

 

IMO the respec shouldn't exist, not in a game like 7dtd, you could respec go all int build everything you need, then respec out of it and keep it all. Kinda exploitable imo, and 40k dukes is NOT that hard to make, even less if you have better barter.

 

I still feel TFP needs to have a general perk like that has stuff like miner 69'er, motherload, sex t-rex, better barter and such. Could make their unlocks require x amount total spent into stat points across all stats. I REALLY hate the fact weapons are locked to stats now though, you have no idea how much I hate it. I can't wait for the darkness falls mod, as imo its how a18 should be. it has the stats removed entirely. Action skills for things that make sense (Weapons, armor use, tool use), rest of stuff is usually level or class locked. You wanna get good at a weapon in that mod? you have to actually use it. Once its out i'll probally never touch vanilla a18 ever again, just like a17, as I found DF just a far better version of the game than vanilla ever was. Not to mention its way more challenging, with a ton of new zombies some with new abilitys.

[SickPuppy]

Darkness Falls have lbd? You've converted me.

[HungryZombie]

Playing on default settings I have not used int at all and seem to be doing fine in the early stages at least. You do not need INT to craft things if you build yourself to loot and sell stuff since almost everything is available through loot or purchase. You need INT only if you can't tolerate the random factor.

 

Fair to say you feel forced, but to claim everyone does is not truthful.