Why the jacked up resource requirements? Not immersive!

[Jojozityjo]

Okay so first we saw them jack the meat requirement to make meats from 1 to 5, 5x the amount needed to make 1 meal.

Now im seeing more items do this as im playing A18.

 

Like the tools, like Fireaxe. I need to ask you funpimps ... how .. how is it, in any world, logical, that it requires a HUNDRED iron bars to make ONE iron fireaxe? How? Why?

 

This is one thing ive loved about 7d2d, is that the cost requirement to make things were actually realistic and could make sense. so many other games dont do that, and i hate it, and i know a lot of other people who also HATE it.

 

So I have to ask, FunPimps, why are you doing this?

If the answer is something along the lines of "Well there's too many resources out there, people get so much iron or such we felt the need to jack up the cost requirements." it's bad. In that case, what you should do, is lower the amount of resources we find, cause that makes much more immersive sense than making ONE fireaxe need a HUNDRED iron bars...

 

Least with less resources gathered it makes sense, we just suck at gathering, or deposits arent that rich or have a lot of filth that need filtered out.

 

But a HUNDRED iron bars for ONE fireaxe .... how? Even the most incompetent of crafters can get a Fireaxe in less than a hundred iron bars. Even when it was TWENTY iron bars for ONE fireaxe, it was a bit much, but could be chalked up to, your character needs trial and error to perfect the fireaxe.

 

So please, in all honesty, in all legitness, FunPimps, or someone who knows what they are thinking for one reason or another....

Why? Why jack up the resources needed for crafts?

[Psychodabble]

I really don't care about the numbers as long as it feels right. I think A18 is in the sweet spot. If you're diligent about collecting materials, you have enough to make what you need in a reasonable time frame.

 

Does it really matter if it's 100 or 20 or 5 or 1 if the amount of time to get it is the same?

[Ghostlight]

Er...It's 20 Forged Iron for a Fireaxe. Same as it's always been.

[OzHawkeye]

Er...It's 20 Forged Iron for a Fireaxe. Same as it's always been.

 

The cost rises as you can make better Axes.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Why? Why jack up the resources needed for crafts?

 

Gameplay.

 

Is it logical that an Axe takes a 100 iron bars to craft? Hell no, but would it make for good gameplay if it only cost one? Hell no.

[Jojozityjo]

I much prefer the cost to be realistic and for the "good gameplay" part to come from instead, nerfing how much we get, it's much more realistic that an ore vein being dug up doesnt give as much cause of impurities and such than it is for a master craftsman to have to spend a hundred iron bars to make 1 tool.

 

It's a mistake that far too many games are jumping on the bandwagon for. "Oh the players get too many resources, lets fix it by making everything cost more." in-game or out of game, the logic behind that is ... flawed. The simplist fix, reduce the amount you get in the first place, it solves a lot more problems. Keep costs realistic, moderate the amount gained instead.

 

It especially makes no sense, that the "better" you get at making tools, the more it costs. I'm sorry but in no reality or universe does a master craftsman require MORE resources to make a better item than the novice.

 

I really don't care about the numbers as long as it feels right. I think A18 is in the sweet spot. If you're diligent about collecting materials, you have enough to make what you need in a reasonable time frame.

 

Does it really matter if it's 100 or 20 or 5 or 1 if the amount of time to get it is the same?

 

How is it the same time? Forging 100 iron bars takes 5x the time it takes to make 20 iron bars, so it takes even longer to make the item.

Regardless of your answer, the time isnt my issue, it's the realisticness of it, the immersion. 7d2d is breaking more and more away from their original beloved immersiveness and into ... well ... you read above.

[Psychodabble]

I much prefer the cost to be realistic and for the "good gameplay" part to come from instead, nerfing how much we get, it's much more realistic that an ore vein being dug up doesnt give as much cause of impurities and such than it is for a master craftsman to have to spend a hundred iron bars to make 1 tool.

 

It's a mistake that far too many games are jumping on the bandwagon for. "Oh the players get too many resources, lets fix it by making everything cost more." in-game or out of game, the logic behind that is ... flawed. The simplist fix, reduce the amount you get in the first place, it solves a lot more problems. Keep costs realistic, moderate the amount gained instead.

 

It especially makes no sense, that the "better" you get at making tools, the more it costs. I'm sorry but in no reality or universe does a master craftsman require MORE resources to make a better item than the novice.

 

 

 

How is it the same time? Forging 100 iron bars takes 5x the time it takes to make 20 iron bars, so it takes even longer to make the item.

Regardless of your answer, the time isnt my issue, it's the realisticness of it, the immersion. 7d2d is breaking more and more away from their original beloved immersiveness and into ... well ... you read above.

 

I'm all for immersion and systems that promote it, but I really don't see how this has anything to do with that. They are just arbitrary numbers...the whole thing is an abstraction for game purposes. It's not like we're measuring grams or kilograms of metal...it's literally just an arbitrary number system.

 

So if they changed it so that a ♥♥♥♥ axe needs 1 metal and a great one needs 5 then changed all the harvest and smelting times so that they are the same as now, that would really make some kind of difference to you? It wouldn't make a bit of difference to me, so I fully support changing the numbers or leaving them the same as long as the harvest/smelt times feel good and make sense.

[Jysen]

Reduce resources? Hell no. I'm pissed to learn they removed obtaining resources from the boulders.

 

So the cost rises with better quality? Where's the actual issue in that when the entire system has been changed to a 6 level tier, and not grinding from 1 to 600? 20 iron/steel per tool, just to combine that into each other to slightly raise it. Do that multiple times over and I'm going to say you used more resources back then vs now.

 

Question is, when you repair said tool, does the quality drop? If no, then wth is anyone really complaining about?

 

As for immersion breaking, that happened when you could make motorcycles, jeeps, and a freaking gyrocopter... right... So not only are we a zombie slaying master, but apparently we are Henry Ford and the Wright Brothers too combined too.

 

Point is, so what if it takes some more resources, as long as you can get said resources. Put the effort into the grind, it's that simple.

[Jojozityjo]

You guys really just dont get it, no wonder every game is doing this nonsense now. No one cares about the immersion anymore.

 

Harvest/Smelt times, dont actually feel good to me, i always though you got a rediculous amount of stuff for harvesting and having to smelt all that into forges and whatnot takes crazy time, which the time to forge stuff, im more fine with, but the amount needed, is too much. Not as horrible as most games mind you so it was a nice repireve from those when coming to 7d2d.

 

My opinion on the old system of combining two of the same thing together to get slightly better version, was never shared, so do not assume you know. I will share though, I also thought it was silly, and I was quite happy when they did away with it and had crafting system like they did in a17. It made sense, same resources to make the same tool, regardless of quality, you just needed the right skills to make better versions. It felt rewarding.

 

This system? Making our tools take 2x, 3x, 4x, and 5x more resources every time we can make a better quality, not only is it illogical, it feels like we're being punished for puting precious points into those skills.

 

"so what if it takes more resources so long as you get said resources" cause it takes more resources for one? it makes the grind EVEN longer, for 2. And of course, my previous statement, which is the only one i truly care about, it's completely illogical and immersion breaking as to why a master smith needs hundreds of resources, to craft one simple axe.

 

And as for the important part i care about, the immersion. I do not see how it is immersion breaking in a post zombie apocolypse for a person to be able to make a car, a motorcycle, or a gyrocopter, especially with how the cyrocopter looks, it looks like some of the first designs of helicopters that were more manpowered than engine powered. It's post apocolypse, there are still resources, there are still facilities, there is still the knowledge to make those facilities. It's not at all outside the realm of possibility that people in this era can still make vehicles of some sort. We as a people started without them before, from nothing, so it's not so crazy to think that people can make them again, after they've already been made and reproduced, and the knowledge is out there.

[Fox]

Didn't you hear? Deer only has an inch or 2 of meat on it. That's why hunters always have to kill so many.

[OzHawkeye]

And as for the important part i care about, the immersion. I do not see how it is immersion breaking in a post zombie apocolypse for a person to be able to make a car, a motorcycle, or a gyrocopter, especially with how the cyrocopter looks, it looks like some of the first designs of helicopters that were more manpowered than engine powered.

 

Lol really? You're playing the realism card? Just how many people do you think would have the knowledge to make a gyrocopter? I sure as hell don't. I mean, even if you gave me every single resource required to make one, and all the tools needed to make one, and a picture of one, I am sure I still couldn't make it, without spending many months reading up on the necessary engineering skills to be able to do it.

 

Now, personally, I don't give a jot about realism in a game. After all, its not a simulation, I care about gameplay, and the gameplay involved in hunting down the schematics needed to "magically learn" how to craft a gyrocopter, in the absence of skilling into the perk of to learn how, is fun. Just as a tier 5 Axe costing me more resources (which are soooo easily obtained anyway) than a tier 1 axe is also fun, and to me is fun progression - the better axe costs more to make.

 

Whether any of it is logical or not, really doesn't matter, so long as it's fun.

[crazywildfire]

You guys really just dont get it, no wonder every game is doing this nonsense now. No one cares about the immersion anymore.

 

I guess being able to carry all that stone along with everything else around with you bothers you too huh? Or what about being about to carry a 4x4 in your pocket? I mean I can go on and on but the point is that it is a game. If they feel the amount doesn't feel right it will get adjusted at some point or you can do it yourself one or the other. But it is a game first off and immersion and realism can only go so far in a game. Fun is always goin to out weigh those in a game.

[Jojozityjo]

Lol really? You're playing the realism card? Just how many people do you think would have the knowledge to make a gyrocopter? I sure as hell don't. I mean, even if you gave me every single resource required to make one, and all the tools needed to make one, and a picture of one, I am sure I still couldn't make it, without spending many months reading up on the necessary engineering skills to be able to do it.

Then that's you, maybe I want to play as some survivor who was someone who knew how to make all that stuff before zombies took over. And even if I wasnt, it doesnt mean i cant find a detailed guide(not just a picture) of how to make one and the things id need, and then how to use the things id need, to eventually be able to make one.

 

I guess being able to carry all that stone along with everything else around with you bothers you too huh? Or what about being about to carry a 4x4 in your pocket? I mean I can go on and on but the point is that it is a game. If they feel the amount doesn't feel right it will get adjusted at some point or you can do it yourself one or the other. But it is a game first off and immersion and realism can only go so far in a game. Fun is always goin to out weigh those in a game.

That, is getting too bogged down in game mechanics. I'm not some fool who thinks games can do everything perfectly, they have their limitations and sometimes it cant be helped cause of game engine limitations, you have to overlook it or find peace with it. Maybe one day games will evolve to a point they can, but for now they can't. But there are things that can be helped, and I know setting the cost for tools is one of them, just a simple change of a variable in the coding.

The tool thing was something that felt just right in a17, it WAS right, and then they went and changed it to something that doesn't make sense as to why? Why would they change it that way? It was realistic, it made sense, now it doesn't.

 

I would like to remind people. This topic is about, specifically, the simple tools; Fireaxe, Pickaxe, Shovel. Covered by the Miner69'er perk. Bringing up anything else is rather a waste of time and just you trying to pick fights and start debates.

 

And I can see now, the forum is full of people like that. I have achieved the answers I desired, that I can sit with, on discord. So I'm done with this thread as it has clearly been taken over by trolls seeking a debate and/or fight. I just wanted answers, not a debate.

 

So I'm done, im henceforth ignoring this thread, and going to start relying on discord more. Farewell and good luck with your lives.

[Laz Man]

It's called game balance. Hard to balance loot %, crafting recipe's, weapon tiers, etc. Etc. Any other way. There is a reason why alot of the realism mods out there have gigantic backpack slots modded in as well. It's because they need a ♥♥♥♥ ton more space to manage all of the items that incorporated.

 

Dont get me wrong, I like immersion but not at the cost of fun. For me too much realism is not fun. A18 right now seems perfect to me right now. 👍

[Jysen]

You guys really just dont get it, no wonder every game is doing this nonsense now. No one cares about the immersion anymore.

 

Harvest/Smelt times, dont actually feel good to me, i always though you got a rediculous amount of stuff for harvesting and having to smelt all that into forges and whatnot takes crazy time, which the time to forge stuff, im more fine with, but the amount needed, is too much. Not as horrible as most games mind you so it was a nice repireve from those when coming to 7d2d.

 

My opinion on the old system of combining two of the same thing together to get slightly better version, was never shared, so do not assume you know. I will share though, I also thought it was silly, and I was quite happy when they did away with it and had crafting system like they did in a17. It made sense, same resources to make the same tool, regardless of quality, you just needed the right skills to make better versions. It felt rewarding.

 

This system? Making our tools take 2x, 3x, 4x, and 5x more resources every time we can make a better quality, not only is it illogical, it feels like we're being punished for puting precious points into those skills.

 

"so what if it takes more resources so long as you get said resources" cause it takes more resources for one? it makes the grind EVEN longer, for 2. And of course, my previous statement, which is the only one i truly care about, it's completely illogical and immersion breaking as to why a master smith needs hundreds of resources, to craft one simple axe.

 

And as for the important part i care about, the immersion. I do not see how it is immersion breaking in a post zombie apocolypse for a person to be able to make a car, a motorcycle, or a gyrocopter, especially with how the cyrocopter looks, it looks like some of the first designs of helicopters that were more manpowered than engine powered. It's post apocolypse, there are still resources, there are still facilities, there is still the knowledge to make those facilities. It's not at all outside the realm of possibility that people in this era can still make vehicles of some sort. We as a people started without them before, from nothing, so it's not so crazy to think that people can make them again, after they've already been made and reproduced, and the knowledge is out there.

 

You do realize I gave a comparison of the previous system to this one, so how did you even come to any form of conclusion that I assumed it was your opinion?

 

Who said anything about not wanting immersion? As you so put it, I did not share my opinion on the matter, so don't assume you know. Immersion is high on my wishlist, but it is also simply a game at the end of the day. There are always going to be aspects that we will disagree with in a game, that's just expected sadly, especially in a game we share a passion for.

 

For example, as already brought up before me, the meat from animals and the requirements for cooking is lopsided. Who knew killing one deer only made like 2 bowls of stew lol. But there has to be some form of balance, so I understand this.

 

But even in a post apocalyptic world, not everyone that survives is mechanically gifted. Humans as a species can and have created amazing technological advancements, but not everyone can do it. What would have been truly immersive is if we actually took over existing vehicles in the world. Finding the right user manual to the model and eventually being able to fix it up over time. Not crafting an entire body frame from a forge/workbench. But again, it is just a game and the concept did grow onto me, but it took quite some time to finally accept I must admit.

 

Finally, there has to be some form of grind to the game. Unless a person wants to play under creative (which I personally can't stand doing). It may seem excessive in many ways, and in many ways I can agree, but without it, there wouldn't be much to do aside explore.

 

At least with 7D2D I know when I put time into grinding for resources, or scavenging, I'm going to virtually get what I'm after. So there is at the least the actual incentive to do it, unlike many other games (I'm looking at you Destiny 2).

 

And considering there are other faults with A18 (in my opinion) that I've seen, I wouldn't put to much concern into it as much as a lack of zombies in a zombie game. Spawn attacks with bullet sponges isn't exactly thrilling as seeing them wandering around on a planet with 7 billion people in it, or mysteriously hiding in cabinets...

 

Out of curiosity, have you found it rather void of zombies?

[OzHawkeye]

Then that's you, maybe I want to play as some survivor who was someone who knew how to make all that stuff before zombies took over. And even if I wasnt, it doesnt mean i cant find a detailed guide(not just a picture) of how to make one and the things id need, and then how to use the things id need, to eventually be able to make one.

 

Well, you could always open the console, enable the creative menu, and give yourself the gyrocopter schematics, and voila, you're a brand new survivor who just happens to know how to build a gyrocopter from scratch.

[Ramethzer0]

For me the realism left behind the moment i clicked on my torch and its completely lit.

I put it away lit. My butt doesn't catch fire.

I bring it back out, fully lit.

And I'm shooting undead in the face or some other related task until I get magically better at cooking the moment I click that button.

 

Truth be told, of all the immersive elements a game might have; A game coder or developer cannot poop out a fully interactive world without its limitations. If you want REALLY REAL immersion, learn how to blacksmith or cook for yourself. You will find both of these professions to be a highly nuanced, time consuming, and hard to master thing if you want to do any of these things correctly.

 

I could make the argument that 100 bars of forged iron is what it took before you finally crafted an axe that is safe to use and can be proud of. If it wasn't worth the effort, then would it be considered a proper T6 Axe?

 

As a professional foodie, chef, and with butchering skills: I could go on for days how cooking is super simplified in video games. Even at my level of skill, baking a thousand loaves of bread will still show how often a skillset hits or misses. There are often things one can't predict. Much less, doing things in spaces not meant for which. (Read here: field dressing a full animal carcass on the forest or barnyard floor)

[crazywildfire]

Then that's you, maybe I want to play as some survivor who was someone who knew how to make all that stuff before zombies took over. And even if I wasnt, it doesnt mean i cant find a detailed guide(not just a picture) of how to make one and the things id need, and then how to use the things id need, to eventually be able to make one.

 

 

That, is getting too bogged down in game mechanics. I'm not some fool who thinks games can do everything perfectly, they have their limitations and sometimes it cant be helped cause of game engine limitations, you have to overlook it or find peace with it. Maybe one day games will evolve to a point they can, but for now they can't. But there are things that can be helped, and I know setting the cost for tools is one of them, just a simple change of a variable in the coding.

The tool thing was something that felt just right in a17, it WAS right, and then they went and changed it to something that doesn't make sense as to why? Why would they change it that way? It was realistic, it made sense, now it doesn't.

 

I would like to remind people. This topic is about, specifically, the simple tools; Fireaxe, Pickaxe, Shovel. Covered by the Miner69'er perk. Bringing up anything else is rather a waste of time and just you trying to pick fights and start debates.

 

And I can see now, the forum is full of people like that. I have achieved the answers I desired, that I can sit with, on discord. So I'm done with this thread as it has clearly been taken over by trolls seeking a debate and/or fight. I just wanted answers, not a debate.

 

So I'm done, im henceforth ignoring this thread, and going to start relying on discord more. Farewell and good luck with your lives.

 

 

 

I think you only seeing things the way you wanna see them and taking what everyone is trying to say the wrong way. But because people disagree with you and makes us trolls and you are now done and goin back to discord I guess I'm not goin to spend time trying to explain in a way you might understand. Matter of fact if you are that easily done with a discussion that hasn't gotten out of hand as far as I seen then I'm goin to assume you was being the troll here just to try and stir things up. *shrugs*

[Roland]

I think you only seeing things the way you wanna see them

 

AKA Immersion. No better definition.

[Scyris]

The main reson they did that was to prevent people from just mass producing them and selling em to trader for easy dukes, especially now that dukes can be smelted into brass at a forge. I do however agree that the costs are way to high.

[Katitof]

Reward vs effort.

 

You really think the same effort for quality 1 and 5 items is fair?

 

By the time you can make rank 5 items, you are already swimming in resources anyway.

[open6l]

The main reson they did that was to prevent people from just mass producing them and selling em to trader for easy dukes, especially now that dukes can be smelted into brass at a forge. I do however agree that the costs are way to high.

 

Could always just edit the items.xml and set selltotrader false for the axe (and any other item) to prevent mass producing/selling. Easier mechanic than increasing the resource costs. Maybe thats an option. Only allow you to sell what you cannot craft (like quality 6 items).

[Ghostlight]

Reward vs effort.

 

You really think the same effort for quality 1 and 5 items is fair?

 

No but since the effort here was leveling high enough to actually make tier 5 tools in the first place, penalizing through increased cost as well is uncalled for. And if it was to prevent mass crafting and selling of tier 5 tools, then once again....way to pick the least satisfying solution imaginable devs.

[crazywildfire]

Could always just edit the items.xml and set selltotrader false for the axe (and any other item) to prevent mass producing/selling. Easier mechanic than increasing the resource costs. Maybe thats an option. Only allow you to sell what you cannot craft (like quality 6 items).

 

I really don't think that was the reason for the increase. A T1 is cheaper to craft then a T5. I personally have not gotten high enough to make that high of an item so can't really say if it is too much or not. But if it is to much then I'm sure they will balance it out more. But to have it cost the same as it does for a T1 I can see why they did it the way they did and have no issue with that part of it. Like others have said by the time you get that high into the perks to be able to craft T5 items you should have enough resources. Iron isn't that hard to come by now.

[dregonazure]

something something i just want my opinion echoed back to me something something basically another troll thread

[Limdood]

TFP have committed to the "increased cost for increased quality" concept. AFAIK no one asked for it, TFP added it as a design decision - presumably to simulate more materials for a quality product, or wastage in selecting the exact right parts, or just as gameplay tax to offset the fact that items don't lose quality anymore.

 

With that mechanic in place, costs HAVE to either start at an unreasonably nonsensical level, or increase to an unreasonably nonsensical level. Your proposed solution of reduced resource generation doesn't solve this problem, it only shifts it around, since no matter how much resources you get, whether it's 1% or 10,000% of current levels - the cost increases to 5x from faulty to blue quality...if the top end feels right, the bottom end will feel ridiculous, and vice versa. make the middle tier the "sweet spot" and you end up making 90% of the gameplay feel "wrong" as people seem to tend to stay at low quality or beeline for max quality as quickly as possible.

 

OP's complaint is merely a casualty of the "increased cost for increased quality" system that TFP put in. Honestly, depending on how you look at the system, it makes sense - a better quality axe head will probably have metal reforged or folded several times to make as dense and solid of a blade as possible. Someone making a high quality mechanical item can't just stick any old parts on it, they'd have to be discerning and choose the exact right part for each job, possibly wasting several parts in trial and error. Requiring more time investment in crafting your top tier items makes sense too - after all, those items don't permanently degrade. For 1 iron and 1 duct tape, you can fix your 100 iron-ingot fireaxe up to brand new no matter how old it is, and keep that quality without having to craft a new one...ever.

 

Is the system perfect? ofc not, there will always be things given up in order for certain benefits - but it accurately accomplishes what it is trying to accomplish - namely higher quality tools taking more effort to get.