is building pointless now?

[meganoth]

I’ve actually changed from digging a pit for my spikes to making a surrounding retaining wall for them. I place two rows of spikes above ground two levels high and then build a wall two blocks high around them with a single block ring around that. Works just as well and chopping trees feels faster to me than digging ditches.

 

My rings are above ground as well, I even added 45 degree ramps at the border (for handicapped and senior zombies obviously). But your solution really sounds like an upgrade, will try it on my next horde base.

[Guppycur]

Won't the crawlers target those blocks then?

[RipClaw]

Won't the crawlers target those blocks then?

 

Are there any crawlers in the horde at all ? I don't remember ever seeing a crawler in the horde in A17.

[Guppycur]

I know I've bitched about them being in horde nights, maybe they finally changed it and I just never caught on.

[Hazeree]

My current play through (horde every night) I build a 'pool' of spikes for them to run around in. With wedge/tip walls so that they dont have anything to beat on. I go through 110 wood spikes every day. They only last the first 30 minutes though.

 

Once I get an auger, that will turn into 110 iron spikes a day.

[Sparks]

Greetings

 

Well if real building actually was useful once these "New Demolisher zombie.

Rigged with explosives he will plow through spike traps and explode when he reaches your walls. Shoot him in the flashing sweet spot to detonate him before he gets too close." arrives it'll be the final nail in the coffin for actual base builders. The only ones that don't build with cheesing of the AI intent.

[RipClaw]

I'm gonna take this zombie to my lab and study him thoroughly. I can't imagine that the only way to stop this zombie is to let him explode.

[Roland]

@Sparks. Please stop posting in light gray. It’s extremely hard to read on mobile.

 

 

Also, you act as if the demolisher taking out your wall is inevitable. There is a way posted in the description you quoted to prevent your wall from getting destroyed. Actively participate in the defense of your base and you’ll always have a good chance of keeping your wall.

[Feycat]

final nail in the coffin for actual base builders. The only ones that don't build with cheesing of the AI intent. [/color]

 

*eyeroll*

 

Oh good, well at least we know who the "real" base builders are, and that literally everyone else cheeses the AI.

 

Lord, people are so extra.

[Everer]

Is building pointless now? That's hard to say, before you had to build since the horde was coming in seven days. Prepared or not, on that seventh day you were going to have zombies out of the ass wanting to beat down your door. Now, you can choose when to have blood moon nights or if you even want enemies on the map. You mix that in with zombies no longer dropping loot, I believe that the scale on which you need to build isn't a massive scale as it use to be, considering zombies gave you things in return that was a return in your investment on the base upkeep.

 

I still build myself, just not on the same mold as other versions. The EXP gain from a horde night just makes my game stage shoot up higher than it needs to be, and I like to be able to take my time and not worry about running into radiated zombies, or other ferals so early in the game.

 

If the Fun Pimps do something more worth while with zombies or at least mix newly infected zombies that could be the markers for loot drops. Building might take more of a secondary objective compared to how it use to be in the past.

[Jeraal]

Is it pointless? No. Is it less fun? Definitely.

[Kelefane]

AI Bandits would make building a lot more fun. And them having bases etc that you can raid.

[Kattla]

Also, you act as if the demolisher taking out your wall is inevitable. There is a way posted in the description you quoted to prevent your wall from getting destroyed. Actively participate in the defense of your base and you’ll always have a good chance of keeping your wall.

 

The description of the demolisher sounds like there is no way to kill it without it exploding , be it

at the walls or elsewhere. This could mean if it is killed before it reaches the wall, it would

blow up spikes, or ground.

Also possible that it might be close to suicide to melee it, if it blows up when killed or close enough

to a player. RIP melee?

 

Still, we , or at least me, don't know how to deal with it yet, nor its explosive strength or if it can

be killed without detonation. It just sounds bad in the description of it.

 

edit: Seems like it will undergo some design changes. Old description no longer valid, i guess. My bad.

[FileMachete]

I strongly agree w most of Kirtonos & Acquisitors points. For me building in A16 was a lot of fun, and my bases were easily five times the size.

 

I did a lot of testing early on in A17, and between my personal teeth grinding frustration about the removal of Log Spikes, and the Devs seeming to always say words to the effect of, "not enough spikes"; then putting down tons of spikes, and, ok, that kinda worked, but was -so- frickin labor intensive! Now I basically refuse to use Spikes.

 

I Do Not like using a Path. But since I alone can not put out enough damage to defend a doubled Pole wall (*), then I just said, "f... it". So I use a simple short elevated path w e-fencing to pause the z's under a blade trap while a dart trap shoots up their butts. A couple more dart traps firing along the path, all controlled by 1x1 pressure plates. GS ~200 Horde costs less than 1200 raw iron (Steel/Darts) and say ~20 Mech & Elec Parts. I basically just watch the show and pop the froggys & vultures. There's a few z's that don't die on their first 'path walk' cause they fall off. A couple of those will go for a pillar and need popping, but only because I haven't bothered to place _any_ traps at ground lvl.

(*talking early on w only spikes & walls, not all the traps. Maybe one person could, later on w lots of explosive bolts. Haven't tried)

 

Sry. Anyway. Point being, for me, A16 Horde nights were a lot of fun, and the bases were fun. A17 Hordes are simply too powerful for a single player to defend a base _without_ heavily relying on Traps. In my opinion of course.

I really miss being able to mostly melee defend my base. The progression of access to traps worked really well so there was an urgency to get to e-fences then blade or shotgun turrets in order to shore up defenses for the next horde.

 

On A18, well, I'm actually kinda hoping it takes a few more weeks to release. Cause I really think MM needs as many Horde nights as possible if there's any hope of Hordes nights being fun again.

 

I do wonder how many folks who played a fair number of horde nights in A16 have come to really enjoy them in A17. I could certainly be in a very small minority of one, heh.

All I do know for sure was that I used to feel like a one-legged man in an a66-kicking contest on horde nights, and it was a blast.

Maybe someone in TFPs office will organize a "Best Of Alpha 16 Horde Night!" vid party, with lots of beer

[eXSe]

Well, for me at least, building is still useful... maybe I just like it too much

 

But, 'cause I like my bases and I decorate them and they are pretty, I ultimately feel the need to cheese the AI with drop ramps so I can keep it as intact and trouble free :-/

 

In A16 I had a similar design, but it had to be actively defended, so I had some turrets covering it, in A17 there is no need for that because Zeds got "smart" I mean, I could defend it, but looting POI's has become a time consuming chore and almost not worth it (especially in later stages) because every single POI is a bloody "dungeon" now, so scavenging for lots of ammo or whatever is just not cost effective.

[Brandox471]

I used to play the game like I was trying to rebuild the world, one town at a time. Killing Zs was secondary to the enjoyment I used to get building something that could stand up to a horde night or 2 before taking major repairs. Now I build simply to have a place to mark where my supplies and workstations are. Personally this has kind of killed the enjoyment for me. Fingers crossed that this will change soon with the release of A18. In the meantime other games are getting my attention for now.

[Damocles]

Since zombies can destroy blocks, during horde night, and you need to keep zombies at a distance, you need some type of base containing blocks as buffer, that is not too small.

That can be a converted POI or a player-build structure.

 

If it has to be created anyhow, it might as well look good.

[nod0n]

You could say it was always pointless, as playing nomad style was always an option.

But if you enjoy building then that's a good enough reason to do it.

 

I played both styles befor. For a nomad A17 mining and building is OK (producing ammo is a little to hard). For a stationary chracter it's a nightmare, especially in the beginning. Even the best auger I was able to assemble didn't have near the same results as other alphas. The point is, I was used to how an auger works and I loved to build realy huge an funny structures. For one house, we did (me and 3 friends) use 1.5 storage chests full of concrete (just one house). Getting 1.5 storage chests of concrete is to much work even with optimal augers.

 

I don't speak about selling concrete what used to be OP (that has been fixed and that's good).

[nod0n]

What is very effectiv now are spikes. But you don't get the XP. I would realy love, getting XP from killing zombies with spikes, because I have to craft and repair them. I don't get a lot of loot from a hordnight.

 

Alternativ

 

I would get XP from electrical weapons like turrets I put down (and own). Then I would only get XP in the lategame but I would have a reason to use them. For now I only use spikes (with barbed wire to slow them) and it works perfect (even day >=70).

[Hazeree]

The problem is not that structures a re too hard to defend. Its the exact opposite. In A16, I used to build very complex and specific structures to fight off hordes from all 4 directions (since they would beat down the walls from the direction they spawned regardless of SI). They were also built with the intention of defending actively, usually by melee, and be able to loot during the fight.

 

So now you need to build with the new AI knowing the SI of your structure changing their behavior every moment. I have built 3 succesful types of horde bases. And hands down, the super easy kill corridor is the most effective. Even with radiated cops blowing up everywhere. So there is no reason to build anything more complicated. Thats the problem.

[FA_Q2]

The problem is not that structures a re too hard to defend. Its the exact opposite. In A16, I used to build very complex and specific structures to fight off hordes from all 4 directions (since they would beat down the walls from the direction they spawned regardless of SI). They were also built with the intention of defending actively, usually by melee, and be able to loot during the fight.

 

So now you need to build with the new AI knowing the SI of your structure changing their behavior every moment. I have built 3 succesful types of horde bases. And hands down, the super easy kill corridor is the most effective. Even with radiated cops blowing up everywhere. So there is no reason to build anything more complicated. Thats the problem.

 

True. The old zeds came from everywhere and that had difficulties in setting up traps IMHO as anything outside the sea of spikes was mostly irrelevant. The new system has the problem of making generalized defense impossible due to them focusing on a single block but then makes any focused defense seem like an exploit. Not a lot of variance with the new system. Almost all effective builds are iterations of the same idea.

 

I am not sure how they are going to fix this though - the old AI was rather trashy as well and I really like that I have to utilize more of the traps now where I never needed anything but spikes before.

[Hazeree]

My 'Final' horde base design would have a sea of spikes (which would be 30 percent used at the end of the night since the zeds did not run around them). Two dozen blade traps. I needed to replace over a thousand shotgun shells for the turrets every week. And go through over a hundred explosive crossbow bolts. AK rounds were a last resort. The base would have to be repaired during the conflict. This is after reaching level 200 and gamestage was over 3000. This was my endgame, not simply 'I got all the stuff, time to restart'.

 

Frames usually got down to 4 or 5 FPS.

 

Now in A17, the AI is so predictable that the kill corridor has them running laps. The moment any one of them deviates from their circles, throwing a molotov has them joining the race again.

 

Somehow, the origianl randmoness the AI used to have made them more of a threat when they were in such large numbers. It would be interesting if the bloodmoon pathing was more simple (GPS straight line) and the new smart pathing during all other times.

[meganoth]

My 'Final' horde base design would have a sea of spikes (which would be 30 percent used at the end of the night since the zeds did not run around them). Two dozen blade traps. I needed to replace over a thousand shotgun shells for the turrets every week. And go through over a hundred explosive crossbow bolts. AK rounds were a last resort. The base would have to be repaired during the conflict. This is after reaching level 200 and gamestage was over 3000. This was my endgame, not simply 'I got all the stuff, time to restart'.

 

Frames usually got down to 4 or 5 FPS.

 

Now in A17, the AI is so predictable that the kill corridor has them running laps. The moment any one of them deviates from their circles, throwing a molotov has them joining the race again.

 

Somehow, the origianl randmoness the AI used to have made them more of a threat when they were in such large numbers. It would be interesting if the bloodmoon pathing was more simple (GPS straight line) and the new smart pathing during all other times.

 

Do you set up spikes so they are level with the ground in A17? I do that (alternating spike and normal block) and the zombies use up 80% of the spikes.

[Darthjake]

I alternate barbed wire and iron spikes, (wood spikes early game), to slow them down enough to get head shots and minimize ammo consumption, since with the current changes we don't leave the base until the horde is over. Our spikes are level, but we slowly elevate the path so we can hopefully knock the Z's off and make them get back on the merry go round.

 

And if they start to overwhelm path #1 we pull 2 wood frames, make that path not reach us and place 2 wood frames on path #2, giving us time to re-trap the 1st path if needed or just the redirection of Z's to path #2 for extra time.

[Sparks]

@Sparks. Please stop posting in light gray. It’s extremely hard to read on mobile.

 

 

Also, you act as if the demolisher taking out your wall is inevitable. There is a way posted in the description you quoted to prevent your wall from getting destroyed. Actively participate in the defense of your base and you’ll always have a good chance of keeping your wall.

 

*eyeroll*

 

Oh good, well at least we know who the "real" base builders are, and that literally everyone else cheeses the AI.

 

Lord, people are so extra.

 

Greetings

 

@Roland Sorry about the color I just use the default setting I don't change it. I checked and it's set to automatic, is there an option to change the forum color? I vaguely think a long time ago I might have changed that, maybe that's why?.

 

Yes I read what it said about the chest light " Shoot him in the flashing sweet spot to detonate him before he gets too close. " but certainly solo it is inevitable that demolisher's will take out your walls. Good luck shooting every demolisher's small chest light among everything else that's attacking on horde nights. After the addition of the Heat seeking Zombie mole underground torpedos things like the demolishers don't do much for my game style eh. Now that 18 is out I have changed how I play including turning off the Horde nights.

 

I do have to say a big thanks though for Fun Pimps giving us so many options to alter the game play from the settings! Kudos fellas!

 

@Feycat All I will say is read the comments following my post and see how many people refer to the AI and go watch Youtube videos of peoples builds. Far more often than not they will include designs or elements that "cheese" the AI behaviors.

 

Mind you I do note that all I say is my own personal opinion and therefore I use my own definitions of things like "real" base builders and "cheese AI" which are bound to be different to others sometimes. Everyone has a right to their own opinions.

 

 

P.S. Yes I know I am a tad late with a reply but 18 is also out now so it is still relevant and it did nothing to change my opinion about base building and the new Demolishers. I don't live on forums I am too busy playing the games I post about!