I just realised base defense is quite flawed in A17.

[Reth]

Where does your condition b) come from? Is that exploiting in your book as well?

 

If yes, that exploiting was already common when I started playing this game with A15. For most it is simply a safety measure. I for example could have built the crafting base on top of every one of my 4 or 5 horde bases in A17 (except for the base on bedrock). It wouldn't have made any difference.

 

EDIT: A friend reminded me of another reason to have separate crafting and horde bases: They have different purposes, the crafting base should be with comfortable entrances for humans and vehicles, maybe even pleasing to the eye. And the defense is targeted against screamers. The horde base is a death trap for zombies. Even if you say you roleplay, a survivor who knows what we know would live somewhere comfortable and would use a sturdy factory building to live through horde night.

 

No, I do not view condition b) as an exploit. It should be considered together with the title of this thread. Same as OP, I believe the base defense in this game is seriously flawed atm. When somebody as proficient at this game as Z-Nation FFS resorts to fighting hordes in a large empty pit without using *any* defensive tools, something is fundamentally wrong. Going toe-to-toe with a bunch of brainless killing machines should never be the best option available. Sadly, it seems to be. I've done it myself countless times, it works wonders but makes very little sense.

 

Folks should really take a step or two back and look at what the base defense has become in A17. Having two or three bases is now the new norm. Hey, look, here comes the horde, lets hoof to our *other* base where we will safely shoot at them while they run around in circles following the ever-changing path of least resistance.

[meganoth]

No, I do not view condition b) as an exploit. It should be considered together with the title of this thread. Same as OP, I believe the base defense in this game is seriously flawed atm. When somebody as proficient at this game as Z-Nation FFS resorts to fighting hordes in a large empty pit without using *any* defensive tools, something is fundamentally wrong. Going toe-to-toe with a bunch of brainless killing machines should never be the best option available. Sadly, it seems to be. I've done it myself countless times, it works wonders but makes very little sense.

 

Ok, I still don't understand the connection between b) and the thread theme, but nevermind.

 

In A16 I actually have been going outside the horde base on horde night and meleeing the zombies for a few hours. In A17 (with reduced running-backwards speed and more difficult melee combat, slow healing packs) MY reflexes and abilities are just not good enough. And I make mistakes from time to time. And I would bet that is the same for the majority of players. You don't think Z-Nation is a typical player, do you?

 

How do you define "the best option"? I have (with all the experience I accumulated) no problem at all to build a rock solid horde base that makes it almost impossible for the zombies to reach me/us. The basic problem is so easy that I am always trying out new base designs. But that is no surprise, anyone with 1000 hours in this game should have found a way to cope with the zombie problems or he didn't search well enough. Whether he is agile enough to face them on an empty field or knows how to build a base that is nearly impenetrable. On an open field I would be probably dead (almost?) every horde night.

 

Wait, correction: I actually didn't try it out recently. Maybe after a few horde nights I could eventually survive on an open field. I would probably need to mine half a week for ammunition to do that and concentrate on guns. I don't think I could survive doing melee, except mixing it in between bursts of shooting.

 

Folks should really take a step or two back and look at what the base defense has become in A17. Having two or three bases is now the new norm. Hey, look, here comes the horde, lets hoof to our *other* base where we will safely shoot at them while they run around in circles following the ever-changing path of least resistance.

 

If they have the resources to build 3 less-than sturdy bases instead of one sturdy one, let them. Material/traps, ammunition, player abilities and avatar abilities are the 4 ways to combat zombies and people have their preferences where to invest their time the most.

[Feycat]

No, I do not view condition b) as an exploit. It should be considered together with the title of this thread. Same as OP, I believe the base defense in this game is seriously flawed atm. When somebody as proficient at this game as Z-Nation FFS resorts to fighting hordes in a large empty pit without using *any* defensive tools, something is fundamentally wrong. Going toe-to-toe with a bunch of brainless killing machines should never be the best option available. Sadly, it seems to be. I've done it myself countless times, it works wonders but makes very little sense.

 

Folks should really take a step or two back and look at what the base defense has become in A17. Having two or three bases is now the new norm. Hey, look, here comes the horde, lets hoof to our *other* base where we will safely shoot at them while they run around in circles following the ever-changing path of least resistance.

 

If people are doing that, it's by choice. You can very easily build a standard, non-maze, sturdy base that will allow you to do everything in one location, if you so desire. The only thing holding back is a willingness to do so, I suppose.

[Zorlox]

I believe Zorlox refered to the part in which Xtrakicking wrote that you can not stop the horde from wrecking the base, without using tricks. You wrote yourself that the horde was wrecking the Bear Den beneath you while you where shooting at them.

 

Your tactic is to find a stable POI, reinforce it and use it as a base until it collapses or the repairs are too extensive. You can do that.

But some people want to build a base from scratch. I also belong to this group because it allows me to let my creativity run free and I can make the base much more efficient.

 

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.

 

I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

[AtomicUs5000]

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.

 

I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

 

Taking out stairs or blocking paths to you in a POI may have been considering "cheesing" the AI at one time. However, at one time, that was the extent of the AI. If you did this, it was essentially "beaten".

It doesn't apply anymore because the AI has changed. The AI will now sometimes destroy supports if it cannot get to you.

Other forms of cheesing exist now with the newer AI, but the upcoming Demolisher will likely throw a wrench in that enough to where those methods won't be considered cheesing anymore.

 

People always say around here that adjusting the AI is a moot effort because "players will always be able to cheese the AI" but I disagree. A more true statement would be "players will always be able to BEAT the AI." - as they should because without being able to beat it, it would make for a horrible game.

 

People will have different opinions of what is considered beating the AI vs what is considered cheesing the AI. For me, as long as it requires some creative thought and planning, and cannot be done immediately at some POI just hours before a horde, it wouldn't be cheesing. Right now, such a thing does not exist. Hoping for a day where it does. To me, being able to get any POI ready just a couple hours before a horde indicates there is some cheese to be had. It shouldn't be that easy.

[OzHawkeye]

People will have different opinions of what is considered beating the AI vs what is considered cheesing the AI. For me, as long as it requires some creative thought and planning, and cannot be done immediately at some POI just hours before a horde, it wouldn't be cheesing. Right now, such a thing does not exist. Hoping for a day where it does. To me, being able to get any POI ready just a couple hours before a horde indicates there is some cheese to be had. It shouldn't be that easy.

 

I agree it shouldn't be that easy, but I suspect I'm a little more pessimistic than you, on the likely outcome of the battle of "TFP AI" versus "Player BI" (Biological intelligence).

 

My suspicion is that no matter what reasonable efforts TFP put into the Zombie/Bandit AI, some clever player will quickly find a way to fairly effortlessly defeat it, and that information will quickly spread through the community.

 

In the end, I think the Horde will always be what players choose to make of it, from disabling it completely at end of the spectrum, to deliberately forgoing tactics that trivialise it at the other end.

 

This isn't meant to obviate the need for TFP to make the AI as robust (and competitive) as possible, only just to predict that whatever the final system is, will have at least one well known strategy that counters it with minimal effort involved.

[meganoth]

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.

 

I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

 

Are you by chance playing this mainly as a scavenger/shooter type game or adhering to a chivalry codex against zombies?

 

Because denying access to the enemy by constructual means is the prefered method a builder would use, in games like this partly builder/sandbox game. Just like castle architects in ancient times. See this or this model of a roman guard tower. Or the picture on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_the_Roman_era.

This method never worked on its own, they had to use guards to differentiate friend or foe because there wasn't this big difference in intelligence and abilities to make use of.

 

Notice that the developers could have easily changed zombie jump height to the same as player jump height if they really thought a ladder two blocks up were an exploit (that there are still other exploits is never a good excuse if you can easily close one)

[meganoth]

I agree it shouldn't be that easy, but I suspect I'm a little more pessimistic than you, on the likely outcome of the battle of "TFP AI" versus "Player BI" (Biological intelligence).

 

My suspicion is that no matter what reasonable efforts TFP put into the Zombie/Bandit AI, some clever player will quickly find a way to fairly effortlessly defeat it, and that information will quickly spread through the community.

 

In the end, I think the Horde will always be what players choose to make of it, from disabling it completely at end of the spectrum, to deliberately forgoing tactics that trivialise it at the other end.

 

This isn't meant to obviate the need for TFP to make the AI as robust (and competitive) as possible, only just to predict that whatever the final system is, will have at least one well known strategy that counters it with minimal effort involved.

 

The convertibility of everything in this game is the problem as well as the solution. No matter what the player thinks of, an exploding zombie should be principally able to erode any cheese by random destructive force, additionally to AI changes that might address exploits individually.

 

I define "Cheese" as a structure that has a great impact on defense with a very low block count to build up (if that isn't the case, it is by definition how a builder should be able to solve a tower defense/builder game). Consequently an explosion is a bigger danger to such a cheesed structure than to a "conventional" one where the safety relies on more and redundant blocks.

[RipClaw]

The convertibility of everything in this game is the problem as well as the solution. No matter what the player thinks of, an exploding zombie should be principally able to erode any cheese by random destructive force, additionally to AI changes that might address exploits individually.

 

I define "Cheese" as a structure that has a great impact on defense with a very low block count to build up (if that isn't the case, it is by definition how a builder should be able to solve a tower defense/builder game). Consequently an explosion is a bigger danger to such a cheesed structure than to a "conventional" one where the safety relies on more and redundant blocks.

 

I define "Cheese" as food that is made from milk.

 

For me, the question with the exploding zombie is how often he occurs in the horde.

 

If there are only one or two of them per horde then you can build in enough redundancies to compensate a loss. If the zombie occurs as often as the cops in my current hordes then I might run out of space to add redundancy.

 

I also think it would be a bit cheap if you didn't have the possibility to kill the zombie without causing him to explode.

[AtomicUs5000]

I define "Cheese" as food that is made from milk.

 

For me, the question with the exploding zombie is how often he occurs in the horde.

 

If there are only one or two of them per horde then you can build in enough redundancies to compensate a loss. If the zombie occurs as often as the cops in my current hordes then I might run out of space to add redundancy.

 

I also think it would be a bit cheap if you didn't have the possibility to kill the zombie without causing him to explode.

I think that at least having that need to build the redundancy would be good enough for now.

[Onarr]

Are you by chance playing this mainly as a scavenger/shooter type game or adhering to a chivalry codex against zombies?

 

Because denying access to the enemy by constructual means is the prefered method a builder would use, in games like this partly builder/sandbox game. Just like castle architects in ancient times. See this or this model of a roman guard tower. Or the picture on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_the_Roman_era.

This method never worked on its own, they had to use guards to differentiate friend or foe because there wasn't this big difference in intelligence and abilities to make use of.

 

Notice that the developers could have easily changed zombie jump height to the same as player jump height if they really thought a ladder two blocks up were an exploit (that there are still other exploits is never a good excuse if you can easily close one)

 

Thing is, this is a game. In games, important portion of it is dangers, that player can overcome with skill. If there is easy way, to overcome it, it stops being a game. There have to be real stakes, if you can cheese the AI, it really undermines the threat.

[Feycat]

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.

 

I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

 

When was taking out stairs or a ramp EVER considered cheese? Using a ramp as an entrance has been a normal thing forever.

[RipClaw]

Thing is, this is a game. In games, important portion of it is dangers, that player can overcome with skill.

 

You only seem to play certain types of games. Not every game has its dangers. I would be new that the farming simulator has any dangers. Or a game like House Flipper or Cities Skylines.

 

For me, 7 Days is all about tactics expressed in the base you build. If you have a good tactic then it is not difficult to defeat your opponent.

 

If there is easy way, to overcome it, it stops being a game. There have to be real stakes, if you can cheese the AI, it really undermines the threat.

 

Shooting zombies from an elevated position in A17 isn't cheesing. Due to the destruction mode you can be glad if they don't knock everything under you down.

 

You should watch the following video:

 

A tower, surrounded by 6000 spikes and at the end it's all useless. The zombies are making their way through the spikes and destroy the tower.

[Feycat]

You only seem to play certain types of games. Not every game has its dangers. I would be new that the farming simulator has any dangers. Or a game like House Flipper or Cities Skylines.

 

For me, 7 Days is all about tactics expressed in the base you build. If you have a good tactic then it is not difficult to defeat your opponent.

 

 

 

Shooting zombies from an elevated position in A17 isn't cheesing. Due to the destruction mode you can be glad if they don't knock everything under you down.

 

You should watch the following video:

 

A tower, surrounded by 6000 spikes and at the end it's all useless. The zombies are making their way through the spikes and destroy the tower.

 

Because that tower is designed for A16 zombies. And spikes aren't made to be a solo defense.

 

If they filled in that bottom floor they wouldn't have gotten destroyed.

[RipClaw]

Because that tower is designed for A16 zombies.

 

That's why I said that in A17 shooting from an elevated position is no longer cheesing.

Due to the improved pathfinding and the destruction mode these are no longer the same zombies.

[Feycat]

That's why I said that in A17 shooting from an elevated position is no longer cheesing.

Due to the improved pathfinding and the destruction mode these are no longer the same zombies.

 

Shooting from an elevated position was never "cheesing" to anyone but you. I can't imagine what moral superiority you think there is in not giving yourself at least a semi-privileged position against a foe.

 

And 6000 spikes would never have saved you even in A16. It's not like every zombie makes sure to thread its own individual path to you and hit every spike. They take their path and then most of them miss the spikes. Even in A16 you had to run back and forth to make sure that you were spreading the horde evenly among your defenses and not letting them sit on one bit for too long.

[RipClaw]

Shooting from an elevated position was never "cheesing" to anyone but you. I can't imagine what moral superiority you think there is in not giving yourself at least a semi-privileged position against a foe.

 

I think you're misjudging me here. I have tried to argue against those who think that shooting from an elevated position would be cheesing.

 

Personally I don't care if a tactic is called cheesing by someone or not. I myself used a platform base in A16 because it was simply efficient and even a max gamestage horde didn't do much harm, even though a lot of cops exploded in the base. On the bottom of the base were about 1000 spikes. And with the target flight AI you could pull the zombies like a magnet through the spikes. If you ask some players like Zorlox or Onarr then it was pure cheesing. But it never bothered me.

 

My current tactics would also be called cheesing by some. I use a kill corridor to which a staircase leads up.

[Onarr]

I think you're misjudging me here. I have tried to argue against those who think that shooting from an elevated position would be cheesing.

 

Personally I don't care if a tactic is called cheesing by someone or not. I myself used a platform base in A16 because it was simply efficient and even a max gamestage horde didn't do much harm, even though a lot of cops exploded in the base. On the bottom of the base were about 1000 spikes. And with the target flight AI you could pull the zombies like a magnet through the spikes. If you ask some players like Zorlox or Onarr then it was pure cheesing. But it never bothered me.

 

My current tactics would also be called cheesing by some. I use a kill corridor to which a staircase leads up.

 

Hey, its really up to you how you want to play. If you like to play like this and you have fun, then by all means, go for it. But myself personally, I like challenge, and being able to completely bypass it by so many ways, really kills the challenge for me. For crying out loud, this game is called 7 days to DIE. Being able to easily cope with this challenge is totally killing it for me. And JaWoodles killing corridor... that is definition of PURE cheese. There is no way in hell you can die there. The zombies will just run, fall, run, fall endlessly

[Reth]

I agree it shouldn't be that easy, but I suspect I'm a little more pessimistic than you, on the likely outcome of the battle of "TFP AI" versus "Player BI" (Biological intelligence).

 

My suspicion is that no matter what reasonable efforts TFP put into the Zombie/Bandit AI, some clever player will quickly find a way to fairly effortlessly defeat it, and that information will quickly spread through the community.

 

In the end, I think the Horde will always be what players choose to make of it, from disabling it completely at end of the spectrum, to deliberately forgoing tactics that trivialise it at the other end.

 

This isn't meant to obviate the need for TFP to make the AI as robust (and competitive) as possible, only just to predict that whatever the final system is, will have at least one well known strategy that counters it with minimal effort involved.

 

Zombies aren't scary because they are fast or smart. They are scary because they are slow and stupid. They are a force of nature. We are having all these issues because TFP is trying to make them smart. Smart creatures can and will be outsmarted. Force of nature requires an equal force to stop it.

 

If a zombie can't reach you, it shouldn't go on a pathfinding mission like a professional ranger. It should just start randomly hitting anything that smells of you or has a high heat index or is simply nearby. Ignore a bunch of those and your base will become aforementioned cheese in no time.

[OzHawkeye]

Zombies aren't scary because they are fast or smart. They are scary because they are slow and stupid. They are a force of nature. We are having all these issues because TFP is trying to make them smart. Smart creatures can and will be outsmarted. Force of nature requires an equal force to stop it.

 

If a zombie can't reach you, it shouldn't go on a pathfinding mission like a professional ranger. It should just start randomly hitting anything that smells of you or has a high heat index or is simply nearby. Ignore a bunch of those and your base will become aforementioned cheese in no time.

 

I have no issue with that in principle. Unfortunately, as things stand, the game can't (reasonably) generate thousands of pretty dumb zombies, whose main challenge is their sheer number. So, the Devs have gone down the route of making each individual zombie more of a threat, in order to present the player with challenge.

 

In an ideal world, the threat from zombies would only be their sheer, endless, numbers. It would be Bandits that would be capable of outrunning, outgunning and potentially even outsmarting you, but the entity controller just can't deliver that as it stands.

[vicflo]

i dont see how breaking stairs or ladders is cheesing now. or even towers with spikes. you have to actively kill zombies now or die in a swarm of them. it isnt like previous versions where you can make a pillar 50 room and surround it with steel spikes and go make/eat a sandwich during horde night and just come back to collect loot and repair the 3 spikes that got damaged. god forbid you closed a door or broke stairs to cheese the system then.

[Reth]

I have no issue with that in principle. Unfortunately, as things stand, the game can't (reasonably) generate thousands of pretty dumb zombies, whose main challenge is their sheer number. So, the Devs have gone down the route of making each individual zombie more of a threat, in order to present the player with challenge.

 

In an ideal world, the threat from zombies would only be their sheer, endless, numbers. It would be Bandits that would be capable of outrunning, outgunning and potentially even outsmarting you, but the entity controller just can't deliver that as it stands.

 

And yet again, not a single time have I asked for more zombies than the game can currently handle. It's not a question of numbers, it's a question where their destructive force should be applied. Five irradiated zombies can tear your base apart just fine if they just stop chasing you for second if you are nowhere to be found and concentrate on high heat or recent smell areas. It only takes one cop to start spitting bile in random directions to create headaches for *any* base design. If doesn't need to get complicated.

[RipClaw]

Hey, its really up to you how you want to play. If you like to play like this and you have fun, then by all means, go for it. But myself personally, I like challenge, and being able to completely bypass it by so many ways, really kills the challenge for me. For crying out loud, this game is called 7 days to DIE. Being able to easily cope with this challenge is totally killing it for me.

 

In my job I have more than enough challenges every day. Playing is all about relaxing and having fun. A little challenge doesn't bother me but it's not my main reason to play.

 

I enjoy designing bases and building. The Horde nights are then always the test for the Horde base.

My goal is to build bases that are as efficient as possible, consume as few resources as possible, and take as little damage as possible.

 

But sometimes I just want to build a huge base and then I spend the next few weeks with nothing else.

 

And JaWoodles killing corridor... that is definition of PURE cheese. There is no way in hell you can die there. The zombies will just run, fall, run, fall endlessly

 

My killing corridor's a little different.

 

JaWoodle's Killing Corridor is just designed to get as much XP as possible by killing all the zombies yourself. In my corridor I used dart traps, electric fences and blade traps. I also don't have a gap in the ground. If a zombie manages to survive the traps and break through the iron bars of my shark cage before I kill him then he can kill me.

[OzHawkeye]

And yet again, not a single time have I asked for more zombies than the game can currently handle. It's not a question of numbers, it's a question where their destructive force should be applied. Five irradiated zombies can tear your base apart just fine if they just stop chasing you for second if you are nowhere to be found and concentrate on high heat or recent smell areas. It only takes one cop to start spitting bile in random directions to create headaches for *any* base design. If doesn't need to get complicated.

 

Well, then in A18, you should see more of that, since there will be some degree of randomness to zombies, such that even if they can "see" a clear path to you, some will decide to switch to "block rampage mode" anyway.

[Feycat]

And yet again, not a single time have I asked for more zombies than the game can currently handle. It's not a question of numbers, it's a question where their destructive force should be applied. Five irradiated zombies can tear your base apart just fine if they just stop chasing you for second if you are nowhere to be found and concentrate on high heat or recent smell areas. It only takes one cop to start spitting bile in random directions to create headaches for *any* base design. If doesn't need to get complicated.

 

No? My base has no problem with cops and it's the simplest thing out there.