I just realised base defense is quite flawed in A17.

[Xtrakicking]

Hi, everyone. After a long hiatus, I'm back at playing the game again, only to realise that base defense currently is not balanced in any way at all.

 

I'll have to finally admit that I used to sort of "skip" horde nights by staying on top of rooftops until I had a strong base. Now that I'm back I thought it would be great to stop using cheap tactics and face the hordes the fun way, which is to actually make a base for each horde.

 

That's when I realised that base building and base defense is extremely unbalanced, especially compared to older alphas. Here's why:

 

I made a small base out of cobblestone blocks, with arrow slits to shoot the zombies from within and a couple rows of wood spikes. As we all know, making a decent base at the start is very hard, because of the stamina penalty and crap tools, but I still think the base I made should've been more than enough for the 1st horde. I even had more cobblestones and tools to repair as they did damage.

 

Welp, not only it wasn't enough, apparently it was a simple joke. They tore through in seconds. Literally, in a couple of seconds, they were through. Didn't even have time to repair.

 

Now, after this immense failure, I thought about it for a while and found out that, unless your base is built to take advantage of the AI, it's pretty much impossible or extremely hard to make a decent base to fight off the hordes in default settings (I was playing warrior difficulty, with 8 zombie horde nights. I wouldn't say that's too extreme to justify what happened).

 

- Wood is simply out of the question, which makes wood blocks pretty much useless. Back in other alphas, I believe wood bases weren't the best, but they were ok for the first horde.

- Cobblestone and bricks, as I have tested, are like paper to them too.

- Iron seems to be better. Too bad an iron base is so incredibly expensive, it's out of the question too.

- Concrete and steel seem to be the only options, except they aren't options till mid-endgame.

 

Traps are quite not worth the resources either. They eat through spikes like they're nothing, and the other traps are for mid-endgame too.

 

So anyways, TL;DR: Base defense is extremely unbalanced, unless your base tricks the zombie's AI. There's no progression at all, since all materials except concrete or steel are either useless against them (just like early game traps), too expensive or both.

[DarlingCows]

My first base was simply 7x7 base with posts running parallel to the wall. All upgraded cobblestone. Tools of use was a bow and arrow, club and spare guns. The base was surrounded by wood about 150 wood spikes. The horde was a breeze.

 

Supposedly in A18 there will be a different AI for horde night but I think the horde night is easy early on, if you put a lot of effort into it.

[Xtrakicking]

My first base was simply 7x7 base with posts running parallel to the wall. All upgraded cobblestone. Tools of use was a bow and arrow, club and spare guns. The base was surrounded by wood about 150 wood spikes. The horde was a breeze.

 

Supposedly in A18 there will be a different AI for horde night but I think the horde night is easy early on, if you put a lot of effort into it.

 

May I ask if the poles messed with the zombie's AI? I've seen a couple of them do that. If not, then it might be that I simply suck as an architect, in which case may I ask for the design of your base?

 

Nonetheless, all the bases I've tried making with said materials were useless against the hordes I've fought against in this update.

[warmer]

I do a 5x5 3 high cobblestone. Usually by day 2 I have found enough concrete to upgrade the first two levels.

 

Then I Put two high spikes around my base. round my base with a 1 square deep moat 1 square away from the wall full of spikes. Then surround the moat with barbed wire. Slows them down enough to make them easy to pick off with stone arrows.

 

For further base building post first horde, I dig in the center of the 5x5. Eventually replacing the dirt under the walls with cobblestone and finally concrete at least 2 squares deeper than the moat. Once I end up on bed rock I go 100 squares in away and build my crafting center. Most of the time hordes passing by due to heat walk right over you due to being on bedrock and your opening being 100 squares away.

[Onarr]

 

I usually build this simple bunker for first horde night. You need to find enough frames and concrete in the first week, which usually is not that hard, as concrete bags are in almost every PoI. And worst case scenario, you can craft the frames with forge.

 

When horde comes, you just need to smack them over the head fast enough so they dont break through. First few hordes are breeze, then I usually add electric fence and campfires.

[Scyris]

May I ask if the poles messed with the zombie's AI? I've seen a couple of them do that. If not, then it might be that I simply suck as an architect, in which case may I ask for the design of your base?

 

Nonetheless, all the bases I've tried making with said materials were useless against the hordes I've fought against in this update.

 

Make a elevated kill corridor, 2 wide, line both sides of the walls with barbed wire, make a cage of iron bars at the far end to sit in to shoot at them. zombies come up stairs, get slowed by the barbed wire enough that you can usually dispatch most of them before they even get to the iron bars. I made one of these out of cobblestone and finished hordenight without having a single block destroyed. They never even got to the iron bars to start on them. Could have made this same base out of wood upgraded once and I bet it would have worked just as well. Gets a bit more complicated once the puking cops show up though. But for the first few horde nights, a 15 block long 2 block wide kill corridor with walls 2-3 high on the sides with barbed wire on them, should be sufficent. Make it about 5 blocks off the ground as well. Its basically funnels them into a kill zone. No matter what you do, the AI will always generally funnel the same way, due to how the ai works now. As you said, you basically can't really make a effictive base without exploiting the AI. As for the high block damage I don't see it, not in vanilla anyway, the spawn numbers on default settings are kinda small and you'll kill all the horde zombies a bit after midnight most likely for the first few hordes, at least thats how it always goes for me.

[Scyris]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28712[/ATTACH]

 

I usually build this simple bunker for first horde night. You need to find enough frames and concrete in the first week, which usually is not that hard, as concrete bags are in almost every PoI. And worst case scenario, you can craft the frames with forge.

 

When horde comes, you just need to smack them over the head fast enough so they dont break through. First few hordes are breeze, then I usually add electric fence and campfires.

 

I love finding the supercorn POI early game, as thats easly 2k+ cobblestone and 1000+ concrete mix if you were to dig it all. A small bunker like that you could easly make by day 7 if you just dig up enough from poi's. Always use rebar frames then upgrade to concrete, it goes to reinforced for 10 mix, insted of going from concrete then upgrade to reinforced which takes 20. By day 7 you should easly have the forge or access to one so getting the rebar frames should not be too hard.

 

In a18 the devs have said they lowered zombie block damage a noticable bit. Which I kinda agree with, as they could bust thru steel and 1200 hp stone a tad fast for swinging at it with their bare hands. Mind you, I find it silly they can even punch thru stone/concrete/metal blocks in the first place but its a gameplay feature, if they couldn't horde night would be a complete joke.

 

That base though probally wouldn't survive the darkness falls mod day 7 first horde without severe damage, as unlike vanilla, the horde in Darkness Falls, keeps spawning till 4 am no matter how many you kill. In vanilla a17 I can usually exaust the first horde's spawn of zombies a bit after midnight.

[lumpoycustards]

The main thing is that you have time to shoot them, so make the foundation thicker. You can easily fill a 5x5 using basic tools.

Wooden bars are cheap so sight lines shouldn't be a problem with a bit of planning.

 

Passive defences are weaker by themselves, but spamming more wire/spikes still makes it way easier for you to fight.

[Cadamier]

I love finding the supercorn POI early game, as thats easly 2k+ cobblestone and 1000+ concrete mix if you were to dig it all. A small bunker like that you could easly make by day 7 if you just dig up enough from poi's. <SNIP>

 

Supercorn POI?!? I saw it in the xml's but have yet to find any... Muchless the POI. Any help with that?

[meganoth]

Supercorn POI?!? I saw it in the xml's but have yet to find any... Muchless the POI. Any help with that?

 

Well, if you want to be spoiled you could look up the coordinates of any such poi in Data/World/"yada yada your county"/prefabs.xml . If it isn't in there you don't have such a poi in your world.

 

Is the supercorn POI part of a quest chain? If yes, searching traders for the right quest (the quest tells you what poi it uses in the description) would be the only in-game alternative to exhaustive searching.

[unholyjoe]

Well, if you want to be spoiled you could look up the coordinates of any such poi in Data/World/"yada yada your county"/prefabs.xml . If it isn't in there you don't have such a poi in your world.

 

Is the supercorn POI part of a quest chain? If yes, searching traders for the right quest (the quest tells you what poi it uses in the description) would be the only in-game alternative to exhaustive searching.

 

1 such poi is bob's boar / carl's corn poi aka house_old_gambrel_03 you will find 1 corn in a room beside the front door and a small canvas tent in basement.

 

in Navezgane:

<decoration type="model" name="house_old_gambrel_03" position="-331,39,668" rotation="1" />

 

there are other pois probably but this one is on top of my head (and you all thought that was hair)

[AlyssaFaden]

While I have some sympathy for the OP, this smacks of "I built a box, and am surprised they got to me!"

 

Put simply: you built an unimaginative base where the design is woefully short of what it needs to be. Glock on YouTube shows you can base-defense with just a few blocks and a POI and no AI cheesing. What you did was - literally - put yourself on their level in a box. That's the most rudimentary of base designs and it's no surprise you were wasted.

 

7 Days encourages some out of the box thinking. Even your "climb on a roof and wait it out!" doesn't work on some of the larger hordes; I've had an apartment block taken out from under me!

 

Watch Kage848, Jawoodle, Glock. Learn some base techniques that stretch the "it's a box" thinking.

[Reth]

While I have some sympathy for the OP, this smacks of "I built a box, and am surprised they got to me!"

 

Put simply: you built an unimaginative base where the design is woefully short of what it needs to be. Glock on YouTube shows you can base-defense with just a few blocks and a POI and no AI cheesing. What you did was - literally - put yourself on their level in a box. That's the most rudimentary of base designs and it's no surprise you were wasted.

 

7 Days encourages some out of the box thinking. Even your "climb on a roof and wait it out!" doesn't work on some of the larger hordes; I've had an apartment block taken out from under me!

 

Watch Kage848, Jawoodle, Glock. Learn some base techniques that stretch the "it's a box" thinking.

 

I've watched great many videos made by 7D2D gurus, including the ones you mentioned. All of them, without a single exception either a) use AI cheesing in one way or another or b) don't use their main base to defend against horde.

 

Ever since the introduction of A17's "improved" AI, some of the exploits became so common, they are no longer viewed as exploits and instead are considered "clever techniques" and "out of the box thinking". You no longer build a base per se, you build a three-dimensional labyrinth.

[Xtrakicking]

7 Days encourages some out of the box thinking.

 

You deserve a cookie after that one.

 

I did build a box, but honestly it's all I managed to build with the materials I had and without trying to exploit the AI. Like I said, iron is too expensive and a wood base is like a magician; now you see it, now you don't.

 

I guess I'll watch these folks and see what exactly is it they do, provided they don't use mods or spend the whole 7 days just gathering resources, no matter how tedious that may be early game.

[AlyssaFaden]

You deserve a cookie after that one.

 

I did build a box, but honestly it's all I managed to build with the materials I had and without trying to exploit the AI. Like I said, iron is too expensive and a wood base is like a magician; now you see it, now you don't.

 

I guess I'll watch these folks and see what exactly is it they do, provided they don't use mods or spend the whole 7 days just gathering resources, no matter how tedious that may be early game.

 

Take a look at Glock. He doesn't cheese the AI. He did a series of a horde every night, watch that one.

[Xtrakicking]

I've watched great many videos made by 7D2D gurus, including the ones you mentioned. All of them, without a single exception either a) use AI cheesing in one way or another or b) don't use their main base to defend against horde.

 

Ever since the introduction of A17's "improved" AI, some of the exploits became so common, they are no longer viewed as exploits and instead are considered "clever techniques" and "out of the box thinking". You no longer build a base per se, you build a three-dimensional labyrinth.

 

I feel like this is kind of the case, at least early game, because the player has very limited and weak defenses, so we now resort to trickery to stop hordes from muching your base down.

[AlyssaFaden]

I feel like this is kind of the case, at least early game, because the player has very limited and weak defenses, so we now resort to trickery to stop hordes from muching your base down.

 

not really to be honest. In my current game I took over the bear den (killing the bears was "fun") and then knocked out the connection to the second floor. Zombies on the ground floor kinda wrecked shopped, but I was able to sit above them and shoot arrows down and take them out. Later hordes I moved to the hospital and have the ground floor be where they can mill around while I attack them from the 2nd. Just need to knock out all connecting pathways. Glock did something similar and several defenses in the police station, allowing zombies to mill around in the pit below while he threw molotovs down.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Heck 17.1-ish I built a TOWER with a walk way around it about 5-6 off the ground; just cobble and wood bars back then. I was able to shoot down on them and keep them mostly off the central tower which ws 5x5 and solid, thus able to have blocks knocked out of it.

 

Kage built a similar tower about 6-8 weeks ago ith a walkway above. They wrecked his tower base pretty bad, but he was only 1 block thick. I found that 2 blocks thick help keep integrity. There's no cheesing in either scenario. it's basically your box ... off the ground. With a walkway so you can get over them and shoot down. I've found a walk way 2 deep works best.

[Zorlox]

not really to be honest. In my current game I took over the bear den (killing the bears was "fun") and then knocked out the connection to the second floor. Zombies on the ground floor kinda wrecked shopped, but I was able to sit above them and shoot arrows down and take them out. Later hordes I moved to the hospital and have the ground floor be where they can mill around while I attack them from the 2nd. Just need to knock out all connecting pathways. Glock did something similar and several defenses in the police station, allowing zombies to mill around in the pit below while he threw molotovs down.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Heck 17.1-ish I built a TOWER with a walk way around it about 5-6 off the ground; just cobble and wood bars back then. I was able to shoot down on them and keep them mostly off the central tower which ws 5x5 and solid, thus able to have blocks knocked out of it.

 

Kage built a similar tower about 6-8 weeks ago ith a walkway above. They wrecked his tower base pretty bad, but he was only 1 block thick. I found that 2 blocks thick help keep integrity. There's no cheesing in either scenario. it's basically your box ... off the ground. With a walkway so you can get over them and shoot down. I've found a walk way 2 deep works best.

 

you realize you just proved their point right?

[Feycat]

I've watched great many videos made by 7D2D gurus, including the ones you mentioned. All of them, without a single exception either a) use AI cheesing in one way or another or b) don't use their main base to defend against horde.

 

Ever since the introduction of A17's "improved" AI, some of the exploits became so common, they are no longer viewed as exploits and instead are considered "clever techniques" and "out of the box thinking". You no longer build a base per se, you build a three-dimensional labyrinth.

 

I have literally built the same base I've built for most of the time I've been playing (since A9 I believe) and only made a few changes to the design for every alpha. I do not cheese the AI, I don't make a maze, and I live/craft where I defend from hordes.

 

Take the ranger station (easiest option) or just build from the ground up, and completely fill in the bottom level with upgraded cobblestone/concrete if possible. Make your outer walls the toughest. Leave a block or two at the center unfilled so you can ladder down to mine. Stack your base on top - crafting, living quarters, farming at the top roof. We actually made a basement slightly smaller than the footprint of the base right beneath it, in order to put our crafting down there. Put spikes around the base of the base, we usually do 3 rings. Put bars up. Build a "broken" outer wall at least 2 high that makes the zombies more likely to head for the openings than smashing their faces on the wall, so you can pitch molotovs in the gaps.

 

When you have time and resources, pave over your inner courtyard.

 

We have literally never had a breech. Zombies have never dug into our crafting room. The worst that's happened is the occasional jumper gets onto the bars, and then we smack them in the face. You just add defenses as your difficulty goes up, turrets and whatnot, but this is literally the same basic "box" base as always. We just completely fill the bottom instead of making the old "pillar 50 fight cage" we used in A16.

[AlyssaFaden]

you realize you just proved their point right?

 

Absolutely not. Zombies wrecking the house from under you is cheesing?

 

by that definition theonly valid base is on the ground at eye level with the zombies. Grow up. Cheesing AI into a maze or falling off a ledge into a continual pathing cycle is one thing, building a tower to fight down and keep them from destroying your base from under you is something else altogether.

[DarlingCows]

The side of the base would look like as follows. I’m making B= upgraded cobble block and - = posts

 

B B B B B B B

B - - - - - - - - B

B B B B B B B

 

Along all 4 side and I’m focused in club perks and some bow perks. Shoot the zombies as the struggle to get close through the spikes then club them when they make it to the base. No escape plan except build out and run. Good for starting bases not late game.

[meganoth]

You deserve a cookie after that one.

 

I did build a box, but honestly it's all I managed to build with the materials I had and without trying to exploit the AI. Like I said, iron is too expensive and a wood base is like a magician; now you see it, now you don't.

 

I guess I'll watch these folks and see what exactly is it they do, provided they don't use mods or spend the whole 7 days just gathering resources, no matter how tedious that may be early game.

 

In A17.0 (where the zombies were more dangerous than now) I used one of the really big rocks as the base from which to shoot at the first horde. Naturally had to smooth it so there was no easy way up. Building material was enough to build a 2-block high cobblestone wall around it and fill this "courtyard" with spike traps. It worked.

 

With the knowledge that so many POIs have building materials now I think I wouldn't need the big rock anymore and could build something similar with concrete. I didn't try it at warrior difficulty though.

 

As others have said, if you want to face the horde on ground level you are making it very difficult for yourself. The zombies surely will think highly of your sense of fairness while they munch on you

[meganoth]

All of them, without a single exception either a) use AI cheesing in one way or another or b) don't use their main base to defend against horde.

 

Where does your condition b) come from? Is that exploiting in your book as well?

 

If yes, that exploiting was already common when I started playing this game with A15. For most it is simply a safety measure. I for example could have built the crafting base on top of every one of my 4 or 5 horde bases in A17 (except for the base on bedrock). It wouldn't have made any difference.

 

EDIT: A friend reminded me of another reason to have separate crafting and horde bases: They have different purposes, the crafting base should be with comfortable entrances for humans and vehicles, maybe even pleasing to the eye. And the defense is targeted against screamers. The horde base is a death trap for zombies. Even if you say you roleplay, a survivor who knows what we know would live somewhere comfortable and would use a sturdy factory building to live through horde night.

[RipClaw]

Absolutely not. Zombies wrecking the house from under you is cheesing?

 

I believe Zorlox refered to the part in which Xtrakicking wrote that you can not stop the horde from wrecking the base, without using tricks. You wrote yourself that the horde was wrecking the Bear Den beneath you while you where shooting at them.

 

Your tactic is to find a stable POI, reinforce it and use it as a base until it collapses or the repairs are too extensive. You can do that.

But some people want to build a base from scratch. I also belong to this group because it allows me to let my creativity run free and I can make the base much more efficient.

[RipClaw]

Take a look at Glock. He doesn't cheese the AI. He did a series of a horde every night, watch that one.

 

Nothing against Glock but his defense is practically always the same. Finding a POI stable enough to reinforce it a little and shoot at the zombies from above and throw molotov cocktails at them. Somewhat boring in the long run and also not particularly creative.

 

Cheesing and exploit are terms I have never accepted as something negative because everyone has their own definition of them. Partly it's just to say "you don't play like I do". I see it as using my mind to defend my base and not just brute force. Why wouldn't I use my knowledge of the zombies?

 

Mr. Reach released a video today defending a simple base against zombies in A17.4. It was a tower surrounded by 6000 spikes. Very basic and highly inefficient if you ask me. After the horde at least 90% of the spikes are still standing and the zombies got through to the tower.

In A16 this setup might have worked with the simple AI but A17 is different.

 

My current base consists of a staircase leading up to a kill corridor with me at the end standing in a shark cage with an SMG. Between me and the zombies there are currently 6 dart traps, 4 electric fences and a blade trap. But I would have room for more traps if necessary. The base is extremely efficient. Apart from a few spiders and dogs, no zombie comes anywhere near me. And for them I have my SMG.

 

So that the zombies don't attack the rear part of the base directly but run through the corridor, I dug a trench around the rear part of the base with an exit in the front part of the base. There are no spikes in the trench. The purpose of the trench is to lead the zombies to the entrance. So I use the pathfinding of the zombies against them.

 

So, do I use exploits in my base or any cheesy tactics ? The answer depends on the definition of this two term. I use the pathfinding of the zombies against them und let the base do most of the work. But on the other hand there is no infinite loop.