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Correct me if I'm wrong...


Seronys

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Yes, you consider it as non-existent, others don't.

 

Not only do I see the problem as non-existent. Others have written that they don't see a problem.

 

Who even said that an EMP pulse (the sudden magic thunderstorm already exists in the game) would disable bikes and would not disable electric traps? Who said that the fuel consumption/availability would change only during the horde night? MM is already looking at fuel availability btw.

 

Madmole just wants to balance the availability of gasoline. But this has nothing to do with the horde night in particular.

 

If you pick up the pickaxe and mine oil shale in the desert you still have as much gas as you want.

And since I do that anyway, I don't see it as an effort.

 

Why would zombies have 10 times the speed of the player - they only need to be a little faster, which is what nightmare speed was for, but is currently bugged due to Unity's root motion.

 

Ask Dimpy. He suggested that.

 

And different zombie speeds in different situations are already in the game as options, not to mention that zombies getting slowed by the light was already happening for most alphas - so it sounds to me like you are trying to debunk something through your wild random assumptions.

 

That the zombies are faster in the dark was replaced by the fact that the zombies are slow during the day and fast at night. There must have been a reason why the developers changed that. Possibly even technical reasons to not have to constantly calculate for each zombie whether it should be fast or slow at this moment.

Especially at Horde Night I can imagine this as an enormous computing effort.

 

How is this discussion even productive when you assume random things and debunk what you assumed yourself?

 

I didn't assume anything but just list the proposals that have been made in the forum so far to solve the problem. You can look for it yourself if you want.

 

How quaint. "If it's that easy mod it yourself". Hadn't crossed my mind! I can respect contradicting feedback but I can't respect people who don't know what feedback means and still post in gaming forums. And in what grounds do you even claim that making zombies track vehicle paths (to get in front of them) or lowering gas availability/increasing consumption, will require "investing effort" or "take away resources from elsewhere"? Your imagination?

 

Ask fataal how hard it is to get the zombies' pathing right so they can follow the player. To get in front of a vehicle they would have to calculate predictively where the vehicle is in a few seconds. Anyone who has ever dealt with these problems knows that it is not easy for a machine to see something beforehand.

I know that things sometimes look easy from the outside but are extremely difficult to implement.

 

As for gas, you only mentioned consumption but never how available it should be. Madmole wants to create a general balancing for the game and not for the hordes night. He wants you to mine oil shale so you have enough fuel to cover greater distances. This is not really an effort for me but something I do anyway to keep my auger running.

 

But in the end, as I said in my other post, it is not some kind of fringe request I or anyone should have to mod, it is something the game was advertised for. "Tower defense" - if you don't have to defend something and nothing is at risk it is not really "defense", do I have to further analyze this for you? so spare me the "then mod it" comments.

 

Tower Defense doesn't say anything about having to go down with the tower. You can also see the whole thing so that you can retreat to a reserve position if the first base breaks down.

 

In my current game the first base didn't work as well as I hoped. I then withdrew to the roof of a neighboring building to protect my base. I killed all the zombies anyway. Does that also count as tower defense or should I have stayed in my base until my base is just a pile of rubble?

 

I find it hard to believe that you can't understand the difference of having a problem presented to you that you have to solve, and already having the solution to a problem and just going through it. What's even more amazing is that the game already does this in other multiple different aspects - it wouldn't be an actual game if it didn't.

 

I just don't see anything that needs solving. If you want to fight the horde, do it. If you don't want it then switch it off. The number of players who don't switch off the horde and avoid it instead is likely to be low.

 

Let's say you would prevent players from escaping the horde or make it a lot harder for them. How would it affect your game? What would it do for you ? Would that change your game ?

 

I can say of myself that it would not change my game. I have always fought the horde in my base and as long as it is possible to fight the horde with one base without them destroying half the base I will continue. Once I retreated and changed the place of confrontation but never avoided the horde as a whole.

 

I've died in the horde night before, too. That is not the end of the world. Then you try to collect your backpack with your weapons and try not to die.

By the way, it could lead to a death spiral if the zombies are so overpowered that the player can't escape at all. I imagine a horde of night in which one dies constantly rather annoying than exciting.

 

In a more fundamental level, it's like saying "why isn't food optional? Anyone who wants to eat food can just do it, so why lose something if you don't eat?", "why aren't recipes free? We could gather materials voluntarily and build anything we want and anyone who wants to gather materials can just do that" and so on. "Oh, I got you! Could it be that you are afraid to follow these rules yourself and need actual downsides?". You got me Sherlock.

 

Now you're exaggerating. It's about the fact that there is more important things in the game that the Fun Pimps have to fix than something that only a few players bothers. Until A17.2, player only had the choice between avoiding or fighting the horde. Now they have at least the option to disable the horde.

 

Someone in a Let's Play that I'm following has imposed the rule on himself that he doesn't craft weapons or tools. He has created a problem for himself and has to solve it. He could deviate from it at any time. Nobody would stop him but he does not.

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I disagree that it’s a waste of time and they have better things to fix. Improving the horde nights is and has been a major focus and will probably continue to be, whether people want that or not.

 

Even though they provided a way to change the days, the name of that game stands on the default 7 days until horde night. It is a very important feature for this game. Luckily for those who wish to turn it off can. If it were my game, I would say too bad... it defines the game too much.

 

Cops were made to explode for horde night, to weaken defenses.

 

What was the reason for reviving the ability of zombies to dig? People avoiding horde night underground.

 

They added spitting vultures for added difficulty during horde night.

 

Why had faatal done work on zombie AI and will continue to? Because horde nights and people finding easy ways to manipulate the AI.

 

What is the reason for the upcoming demolisher? People surrounding a base with a sea of spikes for horde night.

 

Why is MM suggesting that zombies run in front of and damage vehicles? Because vehicles on horde night diminish its intent.

 

It is in their best interest to always work on this... and even though they have major things to fix, this is something we are likely to see changes and improvements on through every alpha and probably even beyond gold.

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Why has there always people that care how others play in a SP focused game (Yes it does have MP, but it´s clearly balanced on SP)?

 

How about minding your own business? Play like you want, and let others do that also.

 

I bet most people arguing to force the horde on to everyone don´t even play MP...

 

And yes there are people that do not have fun with the hordes. So yeah, if you wann force the horde for everyone you do take out the fun for those people. @AtomicUS5000

 

Also they just built in an option to turn the hordes off. I doubt they gonna even think about forcing the horde to everyone.

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Why has there always people that care how others play in a SP focused game (Yes it does have MP, but it´s clearly balanced on SP)?

 

How about minding your own business? Play like you want, and let others do that also.

 

I bet most people arguing to force the horde on to everyone don´t even play MP...

 

And yes there are people that do not have fun with the hordes. So yeah, if you wann force the horde for everyone you do take out the fun for those people. @AtomicUS5000

 

Also they just built in an option to turn the hordes off. I doubt they gonna even think about forcing the horde to everyone.

 

And yet again, we are talking about for the players who have it on... could not care less about those who turn it off. This doesn’t apply to them obviously.

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So? Let them play how they want? If you have a server feel free to kick everyone who doesn´t play how you like it. Leave everyone else alone.

 

Why does this bother you so much how others play? Their own fault if they don´t like getting xp while wasting fuel.

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And yet again, we are talking about for the players who have it on... could not care less about those who turn it off. This doesn’t apply to them obviously.

 

Even those who don't turn off the horde have different opinions about what a good horde is. There are many different ways to fight a horde, and eventually any change will mean that some players won't be able to fight the horde the way they used to.

 

What a horde looks like with a demolisher you might see quite well in the Darkness Falls Mod. There you can find the Behemoth Zombie. It's not the same model as the Behemoth that was planned for A16 but it also destroys blocks with one blow and has a lot of HP. It's not the same as an exploding zombie, but the Behemoth should do similar damage.

 

I honestly still have no idea how to fight this firecracker so he won't lay my base in ruins.

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Even those who don't turn off the horde have different opinions about what a good horde is. There are many different ways to fight a horde, and eventually any change will mean that some players won't be able to fight the horde the way they used to.

 

What a horde looks like with a demolisher you might see quite well in the Darkness Falls Mod. There you can find the Behemoth Zombie. It's not the same model as the Behemoth that was planned for A16 but it also destroys blocks with one blow and has a lot of HP. It's not the same as an exploding zombie, but the Behemoth should do similar damage.

 

I honestly still have no idea how to fight this firecracker so he won't lay my base in ruins.

 

Understandable, and I do understand that. All I am saying is that it is a feature that isn't working as intended. If I turn on nightmare mode, I expect zombies to run faster than me. A problem that needs to be fixed. Likewise, if I turn on BM, I expect an event in x days that enhances the challenge that I cannot avoid unless there are specific preparations that allows me to. Not just simply own a vehicle. I don't want to play pretend like the problem doesn't exist. I did that for all of A16 with zombies that could not dig. While I think a "good horde" on horde night is one that I legitimately fear, others may not for some weird reason. However, it doesn't matter what I think is good, or anyone for that matter... they added the feature into the game with the intent of it being what I think a good horde is. It's not just coincidence either. It happens to be a great game idea for a voxel world.

 

I have no idea just yet how to deal with demolisher either. I hope it requires creativity to defend against.

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Understandable, and I do understand that. All I am saying is that it is a feature that isn't working as intended. If I turn on nightmare mode, I expect zombies to run faster than me. A problem that needs to be fixed.

 

According to what I read, the problem with the nightmare speed should be fixed in A18. The problem is obviously a bug and it was intended that the speed should be higher than the speed of the player.

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According to what I read, the problem with the nightmare speed should be fixed in A18. The problem is obviously a bug and it was intended that the speed should be higher than the speed of the player.

 

Yes, that is correct... as so they should continue to work on fixing their intended horde night.

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Not sure if vultures are quicker on horde night like zombies but maybe the devs can make vultures sort of OP on horde nights. They can get to you no matter what vehicle you have. This will discourage riding it out.

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This argument is so damn dumb no matter what title you give it. Do you people really need to be forced to play this way or that? If you don't like it don't do it. If you like it do it. What the hell is wrong with you people.

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If everyone would just wear the shock collars I’ve designed there would be no more horde avoidance ever.

 

Plus world peace.

 

It's not about wearing the shock collar. It's you standing there in your dominatrix outfit, fondling your whip and licking your lips.

 

 

 

 

That image was too graphic and now it is stuck in my head...:(

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Indeed. Digging zombies won.

 

As a result, some players in A17 have stopped mining for fear of a wandering horde falling on their heads. Has actually happened to me before and wasn't funny. Even if this happens rather rarely, the relaxing character of mining has been damaged by the fact that every 5 minutes some stupid zombie wants my attention. Just annoying.

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The good news is that “relaxing mining” is no longer being forcibly imposed on everyone.... ;)

 

If you absolutely need risk, you have always had the possibility to mine the rocks on the surface. It has happened to me more than once that I was surprised by a dog horde while I was working on rocks with an auger. You could also have simply provided a mine with a large entrance gate and a "Welcome Zombies" sign if you wanted to have zombies in your mine. And if you needed an extra kick of adrenaline then you could have gone to the wasteland at night and mined the rocks there.

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If you absolutely need risk, you have always had the possibility to mine the rocks on the surface. It has happened to me more than once that I was surprised by a dog horde while I was working on rocks with an auger. You could also have simply provided a mine with a large entrance gate and a "Welcome Zombies" sign if you wanted to have zombies in your mine. And if you needed an extra kick of adrenaline then you could have gone to the wasteland at night and mined the rocks there.

 

Were it possible to do, I could see a good "player choice" outcome being normal zombies can't hear you from more than, say, 10 blocks away (safe mining), but the BM can still dig and will tunnel to your underground base (so no "I Win" underground bases still).

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Were it possible to do, I could see a good "player choice" outcome being normal zombies can't hear you from more than, say, 10 blocks away (safe mining), but the BM can still dig and will tunnel to your underground base (so no "I Win" underground bases still).

 

This would certainly be a desirable option but unfortunately it doesn't seem possible for the developers to control the noise generation in such a way that noises from under the ground are generally muffled. No matter if a noise goes through 10m rock and earth or through 10m air, for the zombies it is always the same.

 

One possibility would be to reduce the noise of the mining tools in general. However, some players might criticize that the zombies should hear it when you open a safe with a pickaxe. A tricky situation.

 

I understand that for pathfinding the developers had to give the zombies the ability to dig. But this forum was always so negative about players with underground bases. This of course doesn't help to accept it as necessary for pathfinding.

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Were it possible to do, I could see a good "player choice" outcome being normal zombies can't hear you from more than, say, 10 blocks away (safe mining), but the BM can still dig and will tunnel to your underground base (so no "I Win" underground bases still).

 

Makes sense to me.

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If you absolutely need risk, you have always had the possibility to mine the rocks on the surface.

 

Can you seriously not tell the difference between risk and artificial risk caused by yourself? Like... seriously? Same applies to horror, jump-scares, adrenaline rushes and countless other similar concepts. Do you, for example, watch horror movies and do you think you would get the same effect from a horror movie you have actually produced yourself? Can you see the difference?

 

Not only do I see the problem as non-existent. Others have written that they don't see a problem.

 

Let me guess. The silent majority? Btw, didn't imply you are the only one with this opinion, that would be extremely unlikely. When saying "others don't" I mean just that, rather than "everyone else doesn't".

 

Madmole just wants to balance the availability of gasoline. But this has nothing to do with the horde night in particular.
As for gas, you only mentioned consumption but never how available it should be. Madmole wants to create a general balancing for the game and not for the hordes night. He wants you to mine oil shale so you have enough fuel to cover greater distances. This is not really an effort for me but something I do anyway to keep my auger running.

 

Yes he does, why does this have "nothing to do with the horde night" again? That's even how that discussion started btw.

 

That the zombies are faster in the dark was replaced by the fact that the zombies are slow during the day and fast at night. There must have been a reason why the developers changed that. Possibly even technical reasons to not have to constantly calculate for each zombie whether it should be fast or slow at this moment.

Especially at Horde Night I can imagine this as an enormous computing effort.

 

It may as well be one of the reasons but, again, since we don't have access to their profiler, we shouldn't assume anything (unless you want to quote them on that of course).

 

I didn't assume anything but just list the proposals that have been made in the forum so far to solve the problem. You can look for it yourself if you want.

 

Yes I am sure it took one sentence for the ones that proposed them as well.

 

Ask Dimpy. He suggested that.

 

Don't have to, because it would be a silly question. When someone sells a concept and mentions a descriptive random detail saying "like, x10 speed", he is just selling a concept and that is what you should be looking at. Not saying "omg his concept is out of the question because I imagine that one detail he randomly mentioned would create problems".

 

Ask fataal how hard it is to get the zombies' pathing right so they can follow the player. To get in front of a vehicle they would have to calculate predictively where the vehicle is in a few seconds. Anyone who has ever dealt with these problems knows that it is not easy for a machine to see something beforehand.

I know that things sometimes look easy from the outside but are extremely difficult to implement.

 

I'd like you to explain on what grounds you keep claiming that predicting a freakin small offset of the vehicle's vector based on its speed is one of the things that is "extremely difficult to implement". You don't need a neural network for this, just some first grade math. If you haven't dealt with this before then just don't make this claim because you heard the developers talking about something else being hard to implement.

 

Tower Defense doesn't say anything about having to go down with the tower. You can also see the whole thing so that you can retreat to a reserve position if the first base breaks down.

 

In my current game the first base didn't work as well as I hoped. I then withdrew to the roof of a neighboring building to protect my base. I killed all the zombies anyway. Does that also count as tower defense or should I have stayed in my base until my base is just a pile of rubble?

 

That's great, but you know they don't actually target your base? Anyway, as I said tower defense implies that you have to actually defend something - it's, you know, the concept of defense. If can just turn around and walk away or ride a vehicle there no actual need or reason for the "tower defense" part. As simple as that.

 

 

I just don't see anything that needs solving. If you want to fight the horde, do it. If you don't want it then switch it off. The number of players who don't switch off the horde and avoid it instead is likely to be low.

 

Let's say you would prevent players from escaping the horde or make it a lot harder for them. How would it affect your game? What would it do for you ? Would that change your game ?

 

I can say of myself that it would not change my game. I have always fought the horde in my base and as long as it is possible to fight the horde with one base without them destroying half the base I will continue. Once I retreated and changed the place of confrontation but never avoided the horde as a whole.

 

I've died in the horde night before, too. That is not the end of the world. Then you try to collect your backpack with your weapons and try not to die.

By the way, it could lead to a death spiral if the zombies are so overpowered that the player can't escape at all. I imagine a horde of night in which one dies constantly rather annoying than exciting.

 

You know what's worse than a death spiral? A conversation spiral. Because I've already explained extensively the answer to this question in the last paragraph of my previous post.

 

Now you're exaggerating. It's about the fact that there is more important things in the game that the Fun Pimps have to fix than something that only a few players bothers.

 

Again the typical "a few players are concerned with your problem / a lot of players have the same opinion as me". Support your argument with logic, rather than fictional arithmetics.

 

Until A17.2, player only had the choice between avoiding or fighting the horde. Now they have at least the option to disable the horde.

 

Uh, yes? That's actually a great thing that people can opt out. Because before that it was hard to argue that the horde should be something that is not optional. I already explained to a great extent why this would have merit. You don't have to understand my examples (I'd wager you didn't since you haven't actually replied on them, not saying this is your fault, may as well be mine, at any case, what we have here is a failure to communicate) - just understand that there is a viewpoint that believes just that. And as I pointed out in another post these "force other people", "use willpower", "this problem does not exist" stuff, is not your opinion on the matter itself, but rather your opinion of other people, how people should play (even if you don't get how they want to play) and outright dismissal.

 

Someone in a Let's Play that I'm following has imposed the rule on himself that he doesn't craft weapons or tools. He has created a problem for himself and has to solve it. He could deviate from it at any time. Nobody would stop him but he does not.

 

Yes, with enough willpower you can also create a game yourself and play it, in your imagination. Have you ever wondered what the concept of making a game is and why people make games, whether they are video games, tabletop, physical etc? But as I said above, you don't have to embrace or sympathize with my opinion, but if you want to try to discredit an opposing argument in general, you can't actually do that, without having fully understood the other's viewpoint.

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As a result, some players in A17 have stopped mining for fear of a wandering horde falling on their heads. Has actually happened to me before and wasn't funny. Even if this happens rather rarely, the relaxing character of mining has been damaged by the fact that every 5 minutes some stupid zombie wants my attention. Just annoying.

 

Stopped mining? What do these people do now? Just play the game day to day and never mine? I think that makes the game more of a struggle than worrying about a horde falling on your head. They aren't that fast at it. It takes quite some time and they prefer to dig directly overhead. Unless you are standing still for like an hour, they would also have to dig horizontally to match your path and get above you again.

 

It happened to me once. A pack of old-timers to rub some salt into the wound. It won't happen again because like many things in a survival game, you adapt to the threats.

 

If the slow digging isn't enough, here's a good tactic. Wait until a wandering horde comes. Kill them, then go mine. You will be safe, at least in Vanilla, for a long time until the next one.

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This is just a variant of the whole digging zombies conversation with all the same arguments and accusations. Lol.

 

Well, they both come down to the exact same issue. Perhaps it can be distilled to whether subjecting yourself to something by choice, is the same as being subjected to something. Or solving a problem you have created yourself vs solving a problem you are presented with.

 

Fact is that 7DTD is already riddled with problems that are presented to you, which you have to solve. From simple examples like hunger/health/stamina having finite values and zombies being able to destroy blocks to more "complex" ones. If one can imagine the complete absence of this mechanism, one can probably appreciate its value. When one doesn't even try to understand its value, no matter whether it's actually valuable to them or not, then the discussion devolves to the same old accusations/assumptions...

 

Yes. Maybe some people like running away. It is stupid, but why take it away for literally NO REASON?

 

Maybe some people like to have to defend against the horde, so there's your reason.

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Stopped mining? What do these people do now? Just play the game day to day and never mine?

 

They harvest the boulders. There's a difference if you fight with a few zombies in a confined space or in the open.

 

I think that makes the game more of a struggle than worrying about a horde falling on your head. They aren't that fast at it. It takes quite some time and they prefer to dig directly overhead. Unless you are standing still for like an hour, they would also have to dig horizontally to match your path and get above you again.

 

In my experience, they only dig right above you when they can't use a deeper point. And they don't dig horizontally until they're at ceiling level.

 

I once had the case that I was in the mine and heard zombies digging. I'm out of the mine looking for the zombies. I found them in a hole they dug and killed them. I didn't close the hole in the ground. Shortly after that I heard another zombie dig and it was exactly in the same place although I was already in another part of the mine.

 

For me the whole situation is more annoying than threatening because I have prepared myself accordingly. But some players are a bit jumpy and afraid. That may not be rational, but many fears are irrational.

 

It happened to me once. A pack of old-timers to rub some salt into the wound. It won't happen again because like many things in a survival game, you adapt to the threats.

 

I tried to build a defense that I don't have to care about anymore but nothing has worked yet. For example, I dug an entrance for the zombies and pointed a auto turret at that entrance. Unfortunately the zombies were too fast in the night for the tower to kill them all. I have also tried spikes but if I move too far from the entrance the zombies don't take the entrance but start digging.

 

I hope that the junk turret in A18 will give me the opportunity to build a defense where I don't have to constantly interrupt my work.

 

If the slow digging isn't enough, here's a good tactic. Wait until a wandering horde comes. Kill them, then go mine. You will be safe, at least in Vanilla, for a long time until the next one.

 

I don't even notice most of the wandering hordes. As already said, the whole thing annoys me more than it frightens me.

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