How could more attributes support building?

[Dimpy]

So, right now it feels like only two attributes really deal with the building aspect of the game. Strength allows the player to build larger bases through Miner 69er and Mother Lode, and INT makes the bases more advanced with the electricity system. What I'm hoping to uncover, is a way to change the perk system so that ALL the attributes contribute something to building, preferably in a way that feels both unique and thematically appropriate.

[Dimpy]

Thread inspiration:

Strength: Faster block destruction

Fortitude: improved harvesting

Intellect: crafting base traps

Perception: increased HP of crafted blocks

Agility: faster block crafting

 

Something like that?

[Viktoriusiii]

I'd like a builder Perk. Dunno what to call it... since they tried to make it themed.

But basicially a sixth perktree that gives you boni on buildings.

 

Maybe integrate it into the intelligence stat and merge cooking and chemistry

 

More blockhp of blocks put down by you

faster upgrading/faster destruction of non terrain blocks

less costs for crafting and repairing building blocks

traps deal more damage/receive less

 

*looks at thread inspiration after writing it*

 

Yeah... ehm... what roland said just not thrown across all perks randomly! It needs to be a seperate perktree, or at least contained within one so that there can be the classic "builder, farmer, looter" groups again.

[Dimpy]

I was thinking something a little more diverse. The idea is not a dedicated builder perk, but to have all the attributes support a different kind of builder archetype:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Strength: Bigger base. Stays as the attribute that helps you to spam building materials.

 

Intelligence: More advanced base. Unlocks electric/high-tech building aspects.

 

Perception: More structurally stable base. Allows for the use of more structurally stable materials. SI would probably have to get nerfed.

 

Agility: Makes bases easier to build. Reduces damage taken from traps. Parkour makes it take less planning to build. Less stable places won't collapse as easily under your weight.

More stealthy base. Unlocks mods for utilities like the forge so they generate less heat and make less sound. Adds recipes for stuff that makes your base harder to find.

 

Fortitude: Dunno. Maybe improved static traps and barbed wire? It doesn't fit with the others perks as well, but it also would be cool to get and AOE buff that reduces damage taken to nearby blocks.

[OnlyMeiya]

Id like for a special block for MP that extends your land claim protection, or just you know, give us regular claims back, not all of us like being forced to live in a cramped shack.

[Roland]

I'd like a builder Perk. Dunno what to call it... since they tried to make it themed.

But basicially a sixth perktree that gives you boni on buildings.

 

Maybe integrate it into the intelligence stat and merge cooking and chemistry

 

More blockhp of blocks put down by you

faster upgrading/faster destruction of non terrain blocks

less costs for crafting and repairing building blocks

traps deal more damage/receive less

 

*looks at thread inspiration after writing it*

 

Yeah... ehm... what roland said just not thrown across all perks randomly! It needs to be a seperate perktree, or at least contained within one so that there can be the classic "builder, farmer, looter" groups again.

 

But this is exactly what the builders don't want. They don't want to be forced into perking into the same exact tree every time they play if they want to be a builder. The fear is that right now the tree that will be a must have for every playthrough is strength because Mother Load and Miner 69 are both there.

 

According to Madmole the fears are misplaced but creating a whole new dedicated Builder Tree definitely would create the problem builders fear already exists to a degree in A18 (in theory)

[OnlyMeiya]

I think a lot of these skill trees and perks need to be toned down a bit, we don't need to add anymore skill bloating.

[Dimpy]

The sixth builder perk should be called "magical minecraftiness". It unlocks the ability to nerdpole, carry several tons of concrete without being encumbered, dig through solid materials at a superhuman pace, and craft semi-complex items in mere seconds.

 

Bam. Goodbye to immersion breaking forever.

[FA_Q2]

The sixth builder perk should be called "magical minecraftiness". It unlocks the ability to nerdpole, carry several tons of concrete without being encumbered, dig through solid materials at a superhuman pace, and craft semi-complex items in mere seconds.

 

Bam. Goodbye to immersion breaking forever.

 

Ha.

 

Realism has little to nothing to do with good game design

[FA_Q2]

But this is exactly what the builders don't want. They don't want to be forced into perking into the same exact tree every time they play if they want to be a builder. The fear is that right now the tree that will be a must have for every playthrough is strength because Mother Load and Miner 69 are both there.

 

According to Madmole the fears are misplaced but creating a whole new dedicated Builder Tree definitely would create the problem builders fear already exists to a degree in A18 (in theory)

 

It really is not theoretical - the perks are that way right now in 17. MM likes to distill the point down to 'reqired' perks or min/maxing when that really has nothing dto do with it at all.

 

It boils down to a player looking deciding to perk some combat because their toon feels lackluster and realizing they can spend 3 perks to get some nice shotgun/melee perks OR spending 6+ for the same perk with another category. MM also gave it a hard no (though he did the same thing with lock picks and used the exact same criticisms for that and I think lock picking is happening now) so meh. The new perk system will still be far better most likely.

[Roland]

The reason it is in theory is because it really will depend on whether 2-3 ranks in 69er and mother lode are plenty for most players to feel they are taking in the resources at an adequate pace.

 

Madmole felt it was fine with just a few ranks. If most builders feel that you have to max out those perks then it will feel like A17. To get 3 ranks in mother lode for example that will cost about 8 points and 11 points for both that and 69er to rank 3. Maybe 12 or 13 points tops if my memory is off. But worst case is 13 points which is in no way a significant amount of points.

 

If you MUST go to rank 5 in both in order to be happy with building then you’ll be correct in your assessment. If the majority of builders feel as you do then perhaps we will see a backpedal in this regard as we did lockpicking.

 

But it needs to be mass tested.

[Morloc]

Mother Load and Miner 69 are both there.

 

Mother Load is really not attractive anymore and Miner 69 would be less attractive if you separated constructed block damage (doors, concrete, etc.) from natural material block damage (living rock, trees, boulders, etc.). It seems too much an all-in-one solution at the moment.

 

The inventory and melee aspects of Strength are a bigger draw imo.

 

 

-Morloc

[Viktoriusiii]

But this is exactly what the builders don't want. They don't want to be forced into perking into the same exact tree every time they play if they want to be a builder. The fear is that right now the tree that will be a must have for every playthrough is strength because Mother Load and Miner 69 are both there.

 

According to Madmole the fears are misplaced but creating a whole new dedicated Builder Tree definitely would create the problem builders fear already exists to a degree in A18 (in theory)

 

But NOT putting it in one specific tree makes it so that I have to learn all the perks to finally be a good builder, which makes no sense. The crafter has int. The gunfighter has perception, the miner has STR and the sneaky archer agility.

Why does the builder have to specc into every tree?

 

You know what would fix that problem? Passive xp to the perks you use...

BUT WAIT... THAT SYSTEM IS THE WORST!!!

 

 

sorry... but seriously. Why does everyrole have one main attribute, but builders should be forced to specc into everything?

[warmer]

I think Madmole can attest to this fact about construction. The smart ones get much more efficient use out of materials than the dumb ones.

 

If you translated that into building material, you could make every point of intellect reduce block upgrade costs by a given %

[Khulkhuum]

I am uncertain what kind of changes do TFP plan to make concerning weapons (sounds like there will be a plethora of them now), but i would love one thing to be pushed:

 

BOWS BEING STRENGTH WEAPONS, NOT DEXTERITY/PERCEPTION!

 

For years the misconception of bows requiring dexterity (so nimble) or high perception (good aiming or eyesight?) is sustained by countless games. BUT! Even if you have those stats high yet low strength, you wouldn't be able to even draw the string at all, not to mention shoot an arrow accurately to travel even a few meters.

 

If we changed bows into Strength ranged weapons, we would have guns in Dex and some other weapons in other skill trees. Just sayin...

[KingSlayerGM]

But this is exactly what the builders don't want. They don't want to be forced into perking into the same exact tree every time they play if they want to be a builder. The fear is that right now the tree that will be a must have for every playthrough is strength because Mother Load and Miner 69 are both there.

 

According to Madmole the fears are misplaced but creating a whole new dedicated Builder Tree definitely would create the problem builders fear already exists to a degree in A18 (in theory)

 

I disagree.

 

Let's say we split strength into 2 separate trees, strength and builder. Than it would cost half points to max only one of the 2. So one playthrough I would get builder and strength, the next one I would get builder and int, the next one builder and agility.

 

I think the problem here is rooted in having classes with mixed skills. I would prefer to have a separate tree for each skill that you can get perks for. This way players can perk into exactly what they want.

[meganoth]

I disagree.

 

Let's say we split strength into 2 separate trees, strength and builder. Than it would cost half points to max only one of the 2. So one playthrough I would get builder and strength, the next one I would get builder and int, the next one builder and agility.

 

I think the problem here is rooted in having classes with mixed skills. I would prefer to have a separate tree for each skill that you can get perks for. This way players can perk into exactly what they want.

 

What is the difference between

 

"the next one I would get builder and int, the next one builder and agility"

 

and

 

"the next one I would get strength and int, the next one strength and agility"

 

?

[Viktoriusiii]

What is the difference between

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

?

 

Strength is its own perktree, meaning it costs a lot more to spec into it.

If certain builder perks require you to reach "str 7" and another builder perk requires you to reach "int 7" you now have to split into to perks.

 

Or do you mean integrate "builder" into one singular already existing perk?

Because then the perks become even more unbalanced , making one perk feel more rewarding than the other.

[Khulkhuum]

Making a seperate tree for builders but without perks to increase (so only learn recipes) would be most useful, because you don't need an excessive amount of points to invest and be reliant on some other tree.

[meganoth]

Strength is its own perktree, meaning it costs a lot more to spec into it.

If certain builder perks require you to reach "str 7" and another builder perk requires you to reach "int 7" you now have to split into to perks.

 

Or do you mean integrate "builder" into one singular already existing perk?

Because then the perks become even more unbalanced , making one perk feel more rewarding than the other.

 

I'm asking KingSlayerGM and others pro builder respec what their ideas are exactly.

 

I'm aware that you are throwing ideas around. But nobody here is really clear about what he exactly means by this separate builder tree. I might have missed it, KingSlayerGM at least seems to have said something about half price for strength and builder tree. But wouldn't that make strength weapons too cheap to get?

 

But that is a critical information to assess each idea. If we assume that the tree would be like the other trees it would mean that there is a new attribute governing builder perks. If not builder skills would be really cheap to max.

 

If there is such an attribute, you again have a tree you need to spec into and I'd like to ask what would be the difference that makes this interesting?

 

If there is no such attribute, you can be master miner with mother lode 5 after doing the initial quests. A no brainer to take since ml5 is balanced with additional attribute costs in mind. So what do you think? Should mother lode be nerfed to correspond to this, should higher perk levels costs much more than 1 point?

[KingSlayerGM]

One perk tree should be for only one skill.

 

I would have a separate perk tree for each of the following:

• Archery
  
• Rifles
  
• Shotguns
  
• Handguns
  
• Blades
  
• Clubs
  
• Stealth
  
• Building
  
• Scavenging
  
• Trading
  
• and more..
  

 

Why? Because binding two of them in the same tree restricts gameplay choices. Now you can perk in exactly what you want. No waste of points, no waste of time. Do you want to be a builder archer? Great. Do you want to be a scavenger with shotguns? Great. With the other system you are limited in the choices you make.

 

Just copy Skyrim's system. That is great. Why reinvent the wheel, TFP?

[Khulkhuum]

I think the main point was to gather as many perks into as little categories as possible, but it clearly didn't work out as good as anticipated.

 

Multiple SPs per level with many different categories gives way more freedom. Good idea.

[leaderdog]

I'm just glad we have talented modders that put back level by doing.

 

It's more enjoyable than placing points in a perk tree... nah a skill tree, call it what it is, it's not a perk when it's necessary. It's a required action in order to be able to do something. So it's not a perk. a perk would be a % for heads blowing off, or getting a few extra materials from mining etc.

 

Building should level by doing. It's pretty simple the more you practice the better you are. Not sure why so many people find that offensive. But hey, each to their own I suppose.

 

Tips his hat to Khaine for putting it back in his mod.

 

This is

[Roland]

I'm just glad we have talented modders that put back level by doing.

 

It's more enjoyable than placing points in a perk tree... nah a skill tree, call it what it is, it's not a perk when it's necessary. It's a required action in order to be able to do something. So it's not a perk. a perk would be a % for heads blowing off, or getting a few extra materials from mining etc.

 

Building should level by doing. It's pretty simple the more you practice the better you are. Not sure why so many people find that offensive. But hey, each to their own I suppose.

 

Tips his hat to Khaine for putting it back in his mod.

 

This is

 

Actually you can build structures in this game without purchasing a single perk or skill or whatever you want to call them. You can build any sort of structure with what you have in terms of skills and perks on Day 1. There is nothing required you must buy from the list of perks in order to build anything you can dream up using some sort of block. Builders have full access from Day 1 and really are just gaining quality of life abilities to facilitate what they can already do.

[leaderdog]

Actually you can build structures in this game without purchasing a single perk or skill or whatever you want to call them. You can build any sort of structure with what you have in terms of skills and perks on Day 1. There is nothing required you must buy from the list of perks in order to build anything you can dream up using some sort of block. Builders have full access from Day 1 and really are just gaining quality of life abilities to facilitate what they can already do.

 

True, but the game would be massively challenging bordering on terrible if you don't spec into things like Quality Joe. If you don't want to build weapons/tools and rely on Random Gen. However, if you don't put points into Quality Joe, chances of getting level 3 - 6 club or other weapons is massively reduced, (I don't know if they don't show up at all unless Quality Joe is triggered) which means in an extended game as your kill count goes up, and your gamestage rises, you'll be hard pressed to survive any fight.

 

Plus you need to have mods in the weapons in order to stay on par with the gamestage, which again, without a higher quality weapon you can't do.

 

I guess you could rely on traders, but that's a crap shoot too unless you put points into the barter option.

 

Are the better materials like forged steel hidden on the trader? or are they available at any time? Because building stronger structures basically rely on concrete or better mid to late game.

(Haven't played vanilla for a while, and Khaine hides the good stuff behind the barter perk, so I apologize if I'm turned around on the subject)

 

So the "perks" become a requirement, unless you're a glutton for punishment, or want a serious challenge.