Anybody else annoyed with the AI?

[Stranded_Napkin]

I love this game, but there is a growing disconnect from the concept of zombies.

 

Let's start from the beginning. I am a zombie freak. I watch zombie 'b' movies, play zombie games, read zombie books, talk zombies, and even think about prepping for the zombie apocalypse...lol. Anyways, zombies are dumb unthinking deadheads that react rather than think. The AI in its current state definitely makes the game more difficult than in A16 which is a good thing, but the zombies are freaking geniuses. They all pile on onto a single block until it's gone and then single file through that space. They do this despite all starting from separate sides of a base. The second an area is breached, every zombie knows it's there and goes for it...well, save for those that get stuck on something. Then there's the issue with dismemberment. Fall damage should cause at least a stage of impaired mobility if not dismemberment. Hell, I modded a recipe back in for the log spikes and they don't cause dismemberment. The entire reason they were OP in the last alpha was because of the dismemberment. Without it they are damn near useless...course they should still be available to the player. Then there is the digging zombies. That in and of itself isn't an issue per say but it makes underground bases damn near undefendable. If the log spikes still caused dismemberment, the AI genius issue would at least be manageable.

 

If one observes these issues in conjunction, there becomes a clear issue where the game limits viable defenses. You are almost forced to play in a group, build a base that uses traps and other tools to impede the zombies approach, or you have to take advantage of how their AI works. Brute force defenses are useless as the zombies ignore all but 2 blocks. Defenses built into the side of a hill or mountain or something are useless as the zombies will just dig in the dirt as though they had an engineering degree. Considering that the rwg hasn't created a map with a massive lake in the last dozen worlds I've generated I haven't been able to escape that way. Horde nights have become a test of seeing just how many times I can die in a single night. Couple that with the fact that I haven't NOT run into a bear on day 1 in the last 4 restarts of the game, dying just seems like the point of the game.

 

I heard from Kage848 that there will be more allowance for players to play to their own playstyle in A18. Is there any chance the AI will get tweaked for A18? I sure hope so because I feel like my IT degree has become unequal to the zombies engineering degrees. Kage doesn't like the digging zombies. I can live with that but the half dead geniuses really hurt the game. Personally I'd rather there be a specific zombie that digs and instead of going off to the side to find a weaker block to dig it tracked the player and dug over them. I just know that I can't build my favorite types of bases if I wan't to survive.

[n2n1]

I agree, i would correct the above: they are not geniuses - just, this AI not suitable for them.

 

However...

They jump out the window when the player enters the room...or start digging stairs....or climb to the roof without any apparent reason....or they start hitting the nearest tree... this ridiculous.

This is the dumbest AI I've ever seen in a game.

I sincerely hope that it was inserted into the game only to work out the code for the bandits. Аnd later it will be replaced.

[RipClaw]

According to what I read, the current AI is a base to be used later for the bandits. The zombies are supposed to become dumber again. With 17.2 already some changes have been made which make the zombies look a bit dumber again.

 

What is missing at the moment is a certain variance in the behavior of the zombies. I'm not talking about randomness but that not all zombies should attack the same block or line up like a group of conga dancers.

 

Nevertheless the zombies should be predictable to a certain degree. If there is a free path they should use it instead of hitting their way through a concrete wall.

[RipClaw]

They jump out the window when the player enters the room...or start digging stairs....or climb to the roof without any apparent reason....or...

 

Digging through stairs is another problem that needs to be solved. All in all they seem to have problems with railings.

 

Conversely, I don't see it as stupid that they jump out of the window when the player enters the room, but as very intelligent. What would you do if a heavily armed lunatic entered the room you were in?

[n2n1]

Yeah, let's hope for the best.

 

Conversely, I don't see it as stupid that they jump out of the window when the player enters the room, but as very intelligent. What would you do if a heavily armed lunatic entered the room you were in?

that's right

[Viktoriusiii]

Yeah, let's hope for the best.

 

 

that's right

 

In before it gets moved to questions, pimp dreams or merged with the feedback thread

 

 

Well yes and no.

On the one hand, you are totally right. Zombies now have a gps, heatseeking nightvision and xray scanners.

 

But there are two things I'd like to mention in defense of this (and trust me, me defending A17 is RARE)

 

1. its not normal zombies. Its like a human made virus. So think more Uroboros and less like necromancy.

So they still keep parts of their humanity (and who says that this can't be a sort of basic intelligence with hightened senses)

 

2. it is a technical limitation. As this is a voxel game, more than 10-30 zombies at once are breaking most computers.

So if it really was hordes of stupid zombies, then yes they would be too intelligent.

But to remain a threat with the numbercount that we CAN have, they need to be more intelligent.

 

 

 

But I give you this: they ARE too intelligent and faatal (the guy who does pathfinding and ai) said that he is working hard on improving them to a more sensible intelligence. He already made great strides since experimental (when they would always perfectly beeline to you without ever going somewhere else).

 

So yeah... I hope they will be a lot better in A18, but don't hold your breath on them ever becoming a huge mindless horde

[Drunkwolf]

I think of it like this. how can they make the game more of a challenge?

 

2 basic things come to mind with this. 1 add way more zombies, have them be brain dead idiots that react to noise, light and maybe smell but stupid none the less, but since there is so many you have the chance of being swarmed and killed. or 2 make them smart and have there be way less. and why did they go this rout you might ask? because can the game support more zombies to actually make it a challenge? probably not.

[OzHawkeye]

I think of it like this. how can they make the game more of a challenge?

 

2 basic things come to mind with this. 1 add way more zombies, have them be brain dead idiots that react to noise, light and maybe smell but stupid none the less, but since there is so many you have the chance of being swarmed and killed. or 2 make them smart and have there be way less. and why did they go this rout you might ask? because can the game support more zombies to actually make it a challenge? probably not.

 

And therein lies the problem, the entity controller they're using wouldn't, on an average gamers PC, support the "mass of zombies" approach it seems. I do hope TFP can do something to overcome that, because the basic paradigm of zombies versus bandits should be (imho) huge numbers, dumb as rocks, versus small numbers, sharp as tacks.

 

I just don't know if TFP can pull that off though, at least, not with the entity controller as it currently stands anyway I believe from what TFP have said on the matter.

[n2n1]

1. its not normal zombies. Its like a human made virus. So think more Uroboros and less like necromancy.

So they still keep parts of their humanity (and who says that this can't be a sort of basic intelligence with hightened senses)

yeah.....but...no one mentioned or prepared they were not normal zombies, we think they're - ordinary.

At least it's not obvious, and so it can't be an explanation.

 

Perhaps their reaction to the pain indicates this, but it also looks - ridiculous. Just.... it's "unnatural" .

[AtomicUs5000]

Huge zombie hordes would probably not be in this game. It requires a whole complex system where say a group of zombies perhaps at the center of the horde is actually a single entity. As they break off to attack or perform some special movements, or simply because they are closest to the player and needs to visually show some variance, the animation is perfectly timed so that a single zombie becomes its own entity seamlessly and the group entity is recreated with one less zombie (probably on another thread) and seamlessly replaces the existing, animations and all. The group entity needs to know exactly where bullets hit so that it can virtually break away a zombie at that spot. This is potentially years of development for even a large team working in static worlds. Accomplishing it in a dynamic voxel game would be ground-breaking, but best left for teams of 100+ and millions to spend. I think TFP knows enough about limitations to steer away from attempting such a thing.

[Euzio]

And therein lies the problem, the entity controller they're using wouldn't, on an average gamers PC, support the "mass of zombies" approach it seems. I do hope TFP can do something to overcome that, because the basic paradigm of zombies versus bandits should be (imho) huge numbers, dumb as rocks, versus small numbers, sharp as tacks.

 

I just don't know if TFP can pull that off though, at least, not with the entity controller as it currently stands anyway I believe from what TFP have said on the matter.

 

I've been hoping for this as well. But yeah, the system they used won't be able to support it. Unless they do a radical shift and change the the engine they use I won't see it happening.

 

I'm kinda conflicted with the way the Zombies AI work now. Granted that currently, the way we build bases is more like constructing a miniature Tower Defense game. It was indicated in their kickstarter that the intention was for it to be something like a TD game in a sense if I recall. I'm fine with that to a certain extent but it does put to question whether Zombies should be that smart.

[OzHawkeye]

I've been hoping for this as well. But yeah, the system they used won't be able to support it. Unless they do a radical shift and change the the engine they use I won't see it happening.

 

I'm kinda conflicted with the way the Zombies AI work now. Granted that currently, the way we build bases is more like constructing a miniature Tower Defense game. It was indicated in their kickstarter that the intention was for it to be something like a TD game in a sense if I recall. I'm fine with that to a certain extent but it does put to question whether Zombies should be that smart.

 

Going forward they won't be as smart as they currently are. Bandits, more or less, will be, but Zombies will, from what TFP have said, revert to a more Zombie like behaviour, still smarter than your "average" Zombie to account for their lack of numbers, but not possessing omniscient knowledge of the entire area, and no longer carrying around pocket slide rulers to work out the easiest path to you.

[ColdGate]

In my opinion, only thing is better in A17 comparing to A16 is AI, and even if pathfinding sometimes looks too much complex, its not a big deal in most cases, and its a great step forward, and I must say to developers who was responsible for AI and pathfinding - Great Job! Thanks for removing drunken circle dancers!

[Fox]

I hate how there's several zombies waiting in each and every room of every POI, and they're hand to hand attacks reach further than your swinging club reach. And of course there's those weird looking bird things on every accessible rooftop swarming you along with the dozens more zombies. Worst thing about those birds is they follow you when driving so that the moment you exit your vehicle, they're right on top of you killing you before you have a chance to equip a weapon and attack back, it's even worse when in the gyro-copter cuz you can't exactly do a gentle landing when there's birds attacking you mid-air with propellers doing nothing at all to them. It's ridiculous and the devs need to stop with the nonsense. I get that the game is meant to be difficult, but doing it the lazy way isn't going to win them any awards.

 

In terms of AI intelligence... I just don't see it. They're just as dumb now as they always were, in my opinion. They still can't jump large gaps when done properly even though you can (perfect for base building) and they still take easy to manipulate paths directly to you... I often use them to open the locked doors for me during the early game stages. I'm pretty sure my strategies haven't changed much since Alpha 1.

 

My sister recently made a base where her only defense was a ramp up to her base on all 4 sides and a large gap using trap doors (no spikes or electrics... well not at first anyways, she got lazy later and plastered the ramps with fencing... what a light show), and the zombies could easily attack the base but chose not to cuz the ramps seemed like a better choice based on their coding. So she just sits there during blood moon shooting fish in a barrel while they charge up a ramp and fall down and then run backwards to the ramp again. Keep in mind, she only just started playing the game about 2 months ago.

 

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention that I do hate the fact that they attack my rows of trees miles away from me now, just because they're too dumb to go around it. I'll be in my base minding my own business when all of a sudden, I hear a tree fall down, I look out to see that it's one of mine. So annoying. Happens a lot during blood moon too. I usually lose 2 or 3 trees per blood moon which is more damage than what they do to my base at any given time (with the exception of spitters).

 

I think of it like this. how can they make the game more of a challenge?

 

2 basic things come to mind with this. 1 add way more zombies, have them be brain dead idiots that react to noise, light and maybe smell but stupid none the less, but since there is so many you have the chance of being swarmed and killed. or 2 make them smart and have there be way less. and why did they go this rout you might ask? because can the game support more zombies to actually make it a challenge? probably not.

There is a 3rd option which I have mentioned countless times over the years... just be more creative and be willing to do the work. Natural disasters like earth quakes, tornadoes, acid rain, heavy fog events, etc... these would greatly add to the atmosphere and immersion. More variety of living threats like underground rodents, rare quiet snakes, spiders in a web in designated locations, fish in certain locations, etc... Gameplay difficulties like being able to get knocked off your bike if you land sideways or clip an obstacle, random breakdowns requiring a simple 10s interaction to get it working again, forge, workbench, etc needing minor repairs once in a while, etc... Instead of plastering the screen with predictable zombies hoping that one of them might get to you, use some creativity and find other means of getting to the players. For example, the falling traps were a nice touch, though used a bit excessively like everything else, so I never fall through anymore.

[Khulkhuum]

If a newbie can find a "perfect base" design, so can anyone else...

[Fox]

If a newbie can find a "perfect base" design, so can anyone else...

If referring to my post... to be fair, she stole the idea from some youtuber.

[Euzio]

This one I do agree on the AI being too smart for its own good. I can't call the trap door method an exploit because its not exactly a foreign concept in reality and trap doors have been used in existence since ancient times. But the AI is such that its reading the hatch as a full block and thus they will think that its a viable path to get to us.

 

Its a real simple way to build an invulnerable base in essence but it defeats the purpose of having the various traps in the game then. I don't mind having a simple maze but I'd definitely want a door at the end as a last resort to stop the Zeds from coming into my base. But the coding now is such that if you put a door and close it, they'd immediately consider the base as completely closed off and just start bashing on everything. The maze becomes useless then. But if we leave the door open, they see it as a clear path and just go through the maze. It makes the whole thing seem very counter-intuitive if that's the case.

[Viktoriusiii]

yeah.....but...no one mentioned or prepared they were not normal zombies, we think they're - ordinary.

At least it's not obvious, and so it can't be an explanation.

 

Perhaps their reaction to the pain indicates this, but it also looks - ridiculous. Just.... it's "unnatural" .

 

There is somewhat of a lore for 7d2d

About radiation and stuff.

There is even something about the chemtower (that huge poi with loads of zombies chillin behind glass) trying to create a chemical to enhance soldiers, accidentially creating the "behemoth" that was never implemented (that is why there is a giant hule in the side)

 

So we know they are not traditional zombies. But yeah until the official "campaign" comes out, new players dont know

[ZehMatt]

2. it is a technical limitation. As this is a voxel game, more than 10-30 zombies at once are breaking most computers.

So if it really was hordes of stupid zombies, then yes they would be too intelligent.

But to remain a threat with the numbercount that we CAN have, they need to be more intelligent.

 

Theres no such thing as a technical limitation because its using voxels, that makes no sense, the voxels will turn into a mesh for rendering and "hopefully" into an optimized collider for physics, I've worked with voxels in Unity and UE4 and I can assure you that they are not the reason for the lack of zombies. Their animations and movement has a bigger toll than basic path finding if that is what you are talking about, but there are ways to still have 1000+ zombies around, one such example is instancing animations ( https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/04/16/animation-instancing-instancing-for-skinnedmeshrenderer/ ) Its just how far you are willing to go with optimizations.

 

While I love the concept of 7DTD the execution is pretty terrible imho, thats primarily the reason why I mess around with game engines such as Unity and UE4 just to see if I can replicate specific components because that allows me to prove my point easily with evidence.

[Gmad03]

Faatal has said the ai will not be changing much if at all for a18 since he has been working on bug fixes optimization and other things but will change eventually.

[Khulkhuum]

FPS on my PC gets boggled down when the number of entities range from 50 to 75 (depending on the type), whereas zombie cops need less numbers to start my FPS sift away fast. I tested this for the sake of checking how many Zs i can have active at a time and this also was confirmed with spawning around 75 rabbits (FPS dropped).

 

I can imagine people with worse processors, graphic cards, less RAM and slower disks (i'm using a seperate SSD for bigger games and for my system, things going fast this way) can have a harder time this way. One thing i would want to check in the future is lowering the graphics settings so it runs as fast as possible and then seeing how many Zs can be spawned without huge FPS drops.

 

And if you're wondering what i mean FPS drops, it was from a stable over 30 to below 20 and sometimes down to 10.

[Cadamier]

Something many people either don't know or forget if they do know... TFP has said that A17 was a complete re-write of the game.

 

Let me emphasize that again: "A17 was a complete re-write of the game."

They also said that with the allotted time they had (to get A17 out) they did the best they could, got everything the best it could be basically. This is why we have Doctorates of Engineering as Zeds!

 

 

But with that comes the facts and experiences they have in moving forward. With that also includes a tonne of things least us forget that basically we're back at alpha 1 with a tonne of experience and everything else so progression should be a bit faster. Someone else noted that this current version of the AI is for the bandits... If/when we do get them OH S!!!!! lol

 

Yeah! They are annoying! We're doing our best to deal with them... But just imagine having to fight with Bandits with the current or 'better AI.' Oh MY!

[Viktoriusiii]

Something many people either don't know or forget if they do know... TFP has said that A17 was a complete re-write of the game.

 

Let me emphasize that again: "A17 was a complete re-write of the game."

I don't think a complete rewrite is what you think it means

I very VERY probably was just a fixing of code because they used new graphics and some physics interactions.

But they didnt program the game again Thats not how you do things

Obviously they had to do a complete "rewrite" with perks and projectiles but the base code is still more or less the same

[JCrook1028]

Actually no, Madmole has said that a lot of the base code was indeed rewritten. That's a lot of what Faatal is doing, fixing old nasty base code with newer better base code.

[pApA^LeGBa]

What i don´t get is, why do they attack ramps so hard? Even when they need to turn away from you to do so? I have a ramp for the drawbridge and they love beating it. Turning their backs on me and even walking away from me to do so.

 

Also they still circle. Not around one thing all the time, but like at every 3rd grass block, or small tree or w/e they do a circle or two around before they continue to come towards me.