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Roland

LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

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Ooo...sorry, I hadn't actually clicked on Vik's link, so I didn't realize he was referencing the same exact comic. I'm now trying to determine the odds of that happening and my head hurts.

 

 

-Morloc

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I was quite confused about this as well... but you are unique so I thought it was intended and had some deeper meaning xD

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In A17, the new min/maxer method is spawning one screamer horde after another by lighting 20 campfires and raising the heat in the area. You will never be able to prevent some players from using methods to artificially speed up their game progress.

 

Precisely.

I think the devs spend too much time worrying about min/maxers. They will always be around to spam the highest xp related activity regardless of the system. Who cares if they want to reduce their game to a grind? It's their loss...or gain, seeing as that is what they enjoy.

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I gave it another shot at vanilla 7d2d and I am already struggling and being frustrated in the mid of day 3. Yes RWG is little better, although I m using NitroGen which is superb compared to vanilla stuff. All in all I can live with all that.

But the core of longevity of game play is progression with your characters - things that keeps you doing stuff to reach that extra skill you want. For example what gets me pissed is when I use the axe and try to break a fence with 100 HP. Yet I hit it with 99 dmg and there is nothing I can do about it. Sure invest extra point in the skill to get that extra 1 hp and than grind another level for something that I might needed before that.

The whole perk system is so dumb and boring that I never wanted to play after 2nd - 3rd horde. ( for comparison in Darkness falls mod, I keep having fun and things to do well over 120 level - it keeps being fun that late in game!! maybe give it a shot and play DF for yourself )

 

I believe moding community will have to do the fork for TFP, because I seriously am questioning what they started smoking to make such a dumb turnaround with the whole progression system. It HAS NO specialization no matter how TFP tries to turn it around, since you always end up with same perks over and over...

Graphic makeovers, new items, AI, vehicles etc... nothing will help the game if it has a rotten progression leveling system ( progression options ) that is the heart of every game.

Stay stubborn TFP, obviously amateurs needs to take over with mods and modlets ( unless you may plan to deliberately shut that down as well ). Of course its your game, you can do what ever you want with it.

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But the core of longevity of game play is progression with your characters - things that keeps you doing stuff to reach that extra skill you want. For example what gets me pissed is when I use the axe and try to break a fence with 100 HP. Yet I hit it with 99 dmg and there is nothing I can do about it. Sure invest extra point in the skill to get that extra 1 hp and than grind another level for something that I might needed before that.

 

There is another way, craft (or find) at least a quality 2 axe and put any modification into it. ==> more damage

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Precisely.

I think the devs spend too much time worrying about min/maxers. They will always be around to spam the highest xp related activity regardless of the system. Who cares if they want to reduce their game to a grind? It's their loss...or gain, seeing as that is what they enjoy.

 

Not only that, but most games that chase eliminating min/maxing and excessive balancing usually become homogenized and lose their fun in the process.

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There is another way, craft (or find) at least a quality 2 axe and put any modification into it. ==> more damage

 

Seems like you miss the point - than so you can imagine what I m saying - say I m using quality 6 axe filled with mods and the result is the same except on some block that has more than 100 Hp ... :\

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Seems like you miss the point - than so you can imagine what I m saying - say I m using quality 6 axe filled with mods and the result is the same except on some block that has more than 100 Hp ... :\

 

Ok. so is your point that you NEED damage to grow automatically, but if you have to actively pay a perk point, that doesn't cut it ? Why?

 

Lets turn your example around: Say you are at skill 100 in axes in A16 with a q600 axe (that is the equivalent of having a filled q6 axe with all perks bought in A17), and you only get 99 damage, what then?

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One of the differences between LBD and the current system is that LBD has leveled several things independently at the same time. When I built a base I had to collect resources and partially redesign the landscape. This was how mining was levelled. Building the base levelled construction. And there were also wandering hordes to visit on the construction site where you leveled one or more weapons and sometimes the armor.

 

With the current system there is only XP left and you have to decide at each skill point in which ability to invest it. I tried to distribute it evenly but it didn't work because the gamestage is rising way too fast. I had massive problems until I started to only put points into the skills you need for the fight. Of course you don't progress with the skills in the intelligence branch anymore if you do this.

 

You wrote yourself that some things had to be balanced so that players like me, who prefer to build rather than fight, could move forward at all. At the beginning of Alpha 17 only killing zombies brought enough XP to move forward. From this time came the beginning of this discussion and also the rejection of the current system.

 

And your last paragraph is the entire point. What most people are complaining about - even though most have no idea - is the fact that the current system is wildly unbalanced as well and configured very poorly - EXACTLY what you would expect from a new system they JUST created.

 

They have totally reworked the perk system to address the glaring flaws ver. 1 has. Specifically to your problem, every perk tree is going to have a specialty weapon. This will allow you to only perk into building and still give you viable and effective combat options.

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And your last paragraph is the entire point. What most people are complaining about - even though most have no idea - is the fact that the current system is wildly unbalanced as well and configured very poorly - EXACTLY what you would expect from a new system they JUST created.

 

They have totally reworked the perk system to address the glaring flaws ver. 1 has. Specifically to your problem, every perk tree is going to have a specialty weapon. This will allow you to only perk into building and still give you viable and effective combat options.

 

oh cman. Like yeah there are ppl who dislike the perk system bc of their personal feelings.

But at least me and Pieces aren't doing that.

 

We are comparing concepts.

And the concept of LBD (if done right; maybe combine it like A16 already did) has 100x more potential than a flat perksystem.

And there is simply no comparison. Perkpoints are boring, unimmersive and the absolute last thing a dev should try if everything else fails.

 

Take gothic 1-3.

There you have perkpoints (Learnpoints) BUT they actually didnt influence your character and only described his potential so you could go to a trainer and get better by beeing tought.

 

That is a perkpoint system that is still quite stale, but at least doesnt say "kill 500 x and level up".

 

In what game do you feel more immersed?

In a game where you start as nobody, but start using easy spells, get better ones and have a bigger manapool, visit the magical college to get better equipment and in the end be a strong mage.

 

Or start out as a guy/girl and put points into things because you think that would be fun this playthrough?

 

(TES vs Fallout)

 

I'm sorry but there is no comparison between the two systems.

They might get the perksystem to be better than LBD one day, but only because they only scratched the surface with A15&16, not because it is a better system.

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They are obviously in a rush to reach Gold and willing to cut major corners and skimp (technical debt) so they can say, "Hey look guys, it took a while, but we finally made it!" so they can cash in on the Summer/Winter steam sales to draw in a new batch of suckers with the shiny "Gold Edition".

Demonstrably false. You are flatly incorrect here as we are over a year out (as Roland pointed out)

What happened is they wasted a bunch of dev time on A17's giant steaming turd of a perk system, now they feel the need to stick with it, even though it clearly sucks (sunk cost fallacy).

Again, flatly incorrect.

Of course all the fanboys and fluffers here will be happy with literally anything TFP puts out regardless of the quality, so they can get away with polishing up that turd for A18.

You may have a point if everything in your post was not incorrect.

The better approach would be to build in the mod support as you go so that it is intrinsic instead of trying to bolt it on after the fact.

That way the modders can at least try to clean up their mess as they go along, thus giving players a functional game to work with instead having to wait for this semi-mystical "Gold" release. They need to leverage the mod community.

No, this is by FAR the worst idea because each and every one of those tools added for mod support requires dev time - and that can add up to a lot of time. When the underlying systems ARE NOT IN PLACE, that means a lot of utterly wasted dev time and those modders would still have to start from scratch when the underlying system changed.

 

If TFP spent time adding mod support for gun parts, buffs and progression in a16, every single one of those tools would need to be scrapped, the mods using those tools redone and more time would need to be spent creating an entirely new set of mod tools as the systems themselves have changed.

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oh cman. Like yeah there are ppl who dislike the perk system bc of their personal feelings.

But at least me and Pieces aren't doing that.

Hence the comment MOST.

 

Some people prefer LBD but most of the complaints on these forums center around zed farming - a problem associated with balance more than the progression system.

We are comparing concepts.

And the concept of LBD (if done right; maybe combine it like A16 already did) has 100x more potential than a flat perksystem.

And there is simply no comparison. Perkpoints are boring, unimmersive and the absolute last thing a dev should try if everything else fails.

Because you like LBD. I, OTOH, think that LBD is one of the worst concepts in progression systems and have never seen one that is immersive or fun.

 

So, from my perspective, there is no comparison.

Take gothic 1-3.

There you have perkpoints (Learnpoints) BUT they actually didnt influence your character and only described his potential so you could go to a trainer and get better by beeing tought.

 

That is a perkpoint system that is still quite stale, but at least doesnt say "kill 500 x and level up".

Kill 500 x is a balance problem. You just said that you were not doing this very thing....

 

When the balance is flushed it *should* be 'do a lot of ♥♥♥♥ and then level up.' If TFP manages that is yet to be seen BUT that is the ideal progression system IMHO - one that does not motivate the player to change behaviors beyond intrinsic game play.

In what game do you feel more immersed?

In a game where you start as nobody, but start using easy spells, get better ones and have a bigger manapool, visit the magical college to get better equipment and in the end be a strong mage.

 

Or start out as a guy/girl and put points into things because you think that would be fun this playthrough?

 

(TES vs Fallout)

LOL. Fallout's system was light years better than TES. TES has one of the absolute worst progressions systems I have ever seen in AAA gaming. It is a running joke how broken potion and enchanting has been throughout the entire series and armor progression in that game is the most ridiculous attempt at LBD ever tried in my opinion.

I'm sorry but there is no comparison between the two systems.

They might get the perksystem to be better than LBD one day, but only because they only scratched the surface with A15&16, not because it is a better system.

If you want to support LBD I would suggest running as far away from TES as possible. If anything, the MASSIVE number of mods that tried, and utterly failed, to temper the grinding aspects and game breaking aspects from the progression system in that game proves that the 'solutions' talked about here to solve things like 'hugging cacti' are simple band-aids that do not fix the underlying problems.

 

Simply put, an ideal progression system does not guide player actions in a game like this. It should be intrinsic with play and your actions should be driven by other game features - such as wanting to hunt to get food to eat. An LBD system will never achieve this. General pool xp can. Time based progression would be even better but will never happen :/

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LBD focuses the player's attention on progression bars and point farming. Some LBD proponents will claim that it helps you play more organically and yet when I suggested that people could play organically by doing some repetitive work in the category before spending the perk point to get that same feeling those same people weren't interested. LBD is for those who like to reduce the game to spreadsheets and progress bars and those who will set their macros to more conveniently rush through the progression and gain the advantage over others on the server.

 

Yes, the example of hugging cacti is ridiculous but the example is an exaggeration of a very real problem. People will do unnatural things or take repetitive actions they aren't really interested in doing for the sake of filling a blue bar. What really DOES happen is someone who would normally stop chopping wood once they have enough will do it more if they check and see they are close to improving their bar. So now you've stopped playing the actual game and are playing the fill-the-bar game.

 

As long as there is xp earned by actions there will be a distraction and an artificial gaminess whenever players pull themselves out of the ongoing story of survival to "work on stats and check their numbers to see if they're close" Common pool is not as addictive in this regard as LBD. Even proponents of LBD admit and like to brag that the dopamine hits are best via LBD...

 

I've really enjoyed playing without xp and can't at this point imagine myself returning to playing the game with xp. I actually played the game without a hint of xp for 13 Alphas and now getting rid of xp has really made the game feel as if it has found its roots. I always considered the progression system as garnish for the main course of living and surviving in an apocalyptic world of zombies and not the point of the game. I think that LBD is such a powerfully addictive and rewarding progression system for its own sake that it steals the focus of the main game and becomes the whole point of playing for those who are most attracted to it.

 

This is why I think it is best that it is gone from the vanilla game. However, I do hope that TFP considers making it easily moddable so that as an alternative experience it is available for those who like it.

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LBD is for those who like to reduce the game to spreadsheets and progress bars and those who will set their macros to more conveniently rush through the progression and gain the advantage over others on the server.

 

But these are exactly the same people who now light 20 campfires and farm screamer hordes. When I look around in the streams and the Let's Plays it seems that even more players act like that because they want to get past the level gates as fast as possible. Once they have what they want their gameplay will normalize again but until then it's all about farming XP. As much as you can in as short a time as possible.

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And your last paragraph is the entire point. What most people are complaining about - even though most have no idea - is the fact that the current system is wildly unbalanced as well and configured very poorly - EXACTLY what you would expect from a new system they JUST created.

 

Actually, things like a rough balance and a proper configuration should already be part of the design and internal testing. Some fine-tuning is of course always necessary, but the system was so little balanced in the beginning as if there had been no internal testing and no proper planning. And madmole also wrote some time ago that the one who should have made the system should have left the company during development. But nobody knew that at the time of the release of A17. It was thought that this system had been in development since the release of A16.4.

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The reason i don't play TES is mostly due to LBD. Sure it can be fun, but later on you have to grind the skills somehow, because you feel you need the next point. I don't want to focus on gaining points for artificial bonuses. Sure cheesing the game is fun, especially as you could get OP and not worry about anything really. You could also change the game so that you 1-hit anything, but that doesn't mean it's how the game should be played.

 

Talking about how the game should be played is a very specific term, because it's not a matter of "you play it wrong, you should do this...", but in a general sense "there are ways to get this, so you need to do this and this, otherwise you won't achieve that". How the game should be played is tied in how the player progresses, what's the focus (gathering, fighting, exploration) and also how the game is configured (day time, loot chance, etc.).

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LBD focuses the player's attention on progression bars and point farming. Some LBD proponents will claim that it helps you play more organically and yet when I suggested that people could play organically by doing some repetitive work in the category before spending the perk point to get that same feeling those same people weren't interested. LBD is for those who like to reduce the game to spreadsheets and progress bars and those who will set their macros to more conveniently rush through the progression and gain the advantage over others on the server.

 

Yes, the example of hugging cacti is ridiculous but the example is an exaggeration of a very real problem. People will do unnatural things or take repetitive actions they aren't really interested in doing for the sake of filling a blue bar. What really DOES happen is someone who would normally stop chopping wood once they have enough will do it more if they check and see they are close to improving their bar. So now you've stopped playing the actual game and are playing the fill-the-bar game.

You're describing a min/maxer, not the average fan of LBD. There are min/maxers in every system, as has been pointed out with the screamer farming. As for me and my 20 or so friends, only 1 of us spam crafted in A15, but then that particular friend finds a way to do that in all games. He doesn't know how to just have fun and play a game. His sense of enjoyment comes from saying his DPS is the highest. There is probably some sort of psychological profiling that could be done there, but the point is, it is a mindset that is not tied to any system. It could be Ark, it could be Diablo 3, or any game. He will find a way to be max level with the highest DPS in 1 day.

 

 

Edit to add: seems like TFP are developing their game now with people like him in mind, instead of the rest of us.

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However, I do hope that TFP considers making it easily moddable so that as an alternative experience it is available for those who like it.

 

I am one of those who dislikes many things about A17, but at the same time i really do enjoy some of the new additions. If there would be options to pick a style of progression ( like LBD or current version ) I would be super happy player.

 

I miss old playstyle from A9 to A16, but I really like all the new things added to A17. I HATE level gates and I HATE perk progression - I feel it doesn't fit well with this game - and yes at the same time I also disliked some skill limitations in A16 - like you need construction at level 20 to make a forge or something alike - but I just went out did it stopped when I had enough and moved on to other skills I needed at that moment.

 

I had to do specific stuff to improve it - like mining. looting... etc, not I can just buy a perk for looting without even clearing one POI and just kill zombies where i see them. That what kills immersion for me.

 

I can't go to store buy me a PhD from astrophysics and voila I m super smart ^^ I know it's a game but all these new dumbed down, overly simplified progression perk system is ruining all the experience from A9 forward for me and many other players who supported the game from the early stages.

 

Thats why I only play Darkness falls modpack, which is the closest thing to what would I like the game to be like. Level 120 and still having fun, looting explorimng, building - same as on day 7, while on vanilla I hardly last over day 21 horde get bored and just restart or move to something else after 10 hours or so.

 

And that said I really hope so as Roland said that TFP considers making it easily moddable so that as an alternative experience it is available for those who like it. Than I would be a happy customer.

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Because you like LBD. I, OTOH, think that LBD is one of the worst concepts in progression systems and have never seen one that is immersive or fun.

 

LOL. Fallout's system was light years better than TES. TES has one of the absolute worst progressions systems I have ever seen in AAA gaming. It is a running joke how broken potion and enchanting has been throughout the entire series and armor progression in that game is the most ridiculous attempt at LBD ever tried in my opinion.

 

If you want to support LBD I would suggest running as far away from TES as possible. If anything, the MASSIVE number of mods that tried, and utterly failed, to temper the grinding aspects and game breaking aspects from the progression system in that game proves that the 'solutions' talked about here to solve things like 'hugging cacti' are simple band-aids that do not fix the underlying problems.

 

I think we live in different universes.

Yes there is a mod that changes lbd to XP in skyrim, but in my experience did it never gain any traction bc ppl thought why streamline such a good system.

 

Yes it had exploits, but so does every game/progression system. That doesn't mean the system is bad, only the execution.

 

I am actually shocked right now that s1 like you exists :D

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If anything, the MASSIVE number of mods that tried, and utterly failed, to temper the grinding aspects and game breaking aspects from the progression system in that game proves that the 'solutions' talked about here to solve things like 'hugging cacti' are simple band-aids that do not fix the underlying problems.

 

Perhaps you utterly failed to find the right ones or the right combination of mods that did that? Or didn't care enough to try, since you obviously don't like the system? Just saying.

 

Spent more hours modding Skyrim than I am comfortable to admit (spent weeks modding it before I started a playthrough every time I installed it) and I've found more than enough mods that fix Skyrim's LBD to perfection. Only CCO + Requiem alone are enough to fix and balance a large part of the LBD, make it feel completely natural, and there are plenty of other mods which add random diminishing returns and help create a proper item economy.

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LBD focuses the player's attention on progression bars and point farming. Some LBD proponents will claim that it helps you play more organically and yet when I suggested that people could play organically by doing some repetitive work in the category before spending the perk point to get that same feeling those same people weren't interested. LBD is for those who like to reduce the game to spreadsheets and progress bars and those who will set their macros to more conveniently rush through the progression and gain the advantage over others on the server.

 

Yes, the example of hugging cacti is ridiculous but the example is an exaggeration of a very real problem. People will do unnatural things or take repetitive actions they aren't really interested in doing for the sake of filling a blue bar. What really DOES happen is someone who would normally stop chopping wood once they have enough will do it more if they check and see they are close to improving their bar. So now you've stopped playing the actual game and are playing the fill-the-bar game.

 

As long as there is xp earned by actions there will be a distraction and an artificial gaminess whenever players pull themselves out of the ongoing story of survival to "work on stats and check their numbers to see if they're close" Common pool is not as addictive in this regard as LBD. Even proponents of LBD admit and like to brag that the dopamine hits are best via LBD...

 

I've really enjoyed playing without xp and can't at this point imagine myself returning to playing the game with xp. I actually played the game without a hint of xp for 13 Alphas and now getting rid of xp has really made the game feel as if it has found its roots. I always considered the progression system as garnish for the main course of living and surviving in an apocalyptic world of zombies and not the point of the game. I think that LBD is such a powerfully addictive and rewarding progression system for its own sake that it steals the focus of the main game and becomes the whole point of playing for those who are most attracted to it.

 

This is why I think it is best that it is gone from the vanilla game. However, I do hope that TFP considers making it easily moddable so that as an alternative experience it is available for those who like it.

 

I'm sorry this is just simply not true.

 

I much prefered the learn by doing system and I couldn't stand to play the game like its a spreadsheet simulator.

 

The reason LBD is a much better system for players like myself is that it creates a sense of achievement. You practice in something and you get better at it and then you see the results as you go out in the world. This is lost with the new system because your actions are no longer directly tied to your character progression. Players enjoy learn by doing because it creates immersive game play and that's why it feels organic / natural which surely is what you want in a survival game?

 

A15 was the peak - While spam crafting was a bit of a technical problem, it was one of many things you could do say during the evening to progress. I literally used to map out my days and think about how I was going to make my character better during A15. While A16 lost a lot of the charm that A15 had it was still a fair middle ground.

 

In A17 I was sat in my base and night just thinking... Well what do I do now?

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In A17 I was sat in my base and night just thinking... Well what do I do now?

 

For one, stop sitting in your base and go outside. The stealth system works perfectly. There is very little danger to getting stuff done outdoors.

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If you're the kind of person who likes to consciously "build" a character with a predetermined mix of stats and skills, LBD is going to feel very tedious because you are "forced" into doing specific actions to build the specific skills you want. However, if you're the kind of person who doesn't like to build a character, LBD is great because it doesn't force you to spend any time in a menu reading descriptions, or using math spreadsheets to decide what mix of perks is the best or most fun; just do what you want and LBD automatically makes doing those things easier.

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I think that the reason wellness was removed is the same reason LBD was removed: it didn't fit with the vision MM had for the game.

To me, the idea behind the new perk system is to force you to choose a play style over another.

And investing points in you max health/stamina is a path as well.

Do you want to have max health and take damage like a tank or max stamina so you can run when in a pinch?

Is this more important to you than crafting advanced recipes?

Or maybe you prefer to be a gardener and self-sustain?

I guess this is to stress the importance of the choice you make regarding your points.

 

I'm posting this as well since I think it's related.

If I'm correct, then I understand why MM did it (even though I still don't like it as it is now).

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For one, stop sitting in your base and go outside. The stealth system works perfectly. There is very little danger to getting stuff done outdoors.

 

I get ambushed by zombies on daytime when i hit a ressource twice xD

I don'T know if it has something to do with difficulty (it shouldnt) but they always come from behind me :D

 

Also its quite unintuitive to do work at night. I (and all my friends and players i met) never thought "oh lets stay outside at night" its always "its already 7:30 om lets head home to be safe!"

but when in A16 there was always things to be done like crafting, repairing, building, cooking or digging a mine, now it feels like crafting is unecessary because repairing has no downsides now, repairing blocks is also basicially not needed because without upgrades, they will just shred it within 5 seconds anyways, building also is unviable (either use blade traps and killcorridors or be prepared to face them at 0:00 no matter how many walls are between your and the outside), cooking is allright i guess but i think we all know it needs a rework as bacon and eggs are more than enough forever and digging a mine always took ages, but with zombies beeing able to dig down and their speed at which they can do so, this has become a big nono at night as well.

 

Some things might work (like mining at night) but it doesnt feel natural.

The game tells me night is dangerous and mining attracts Z's. So logicially speaking mining is discouraged.

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