zombies dug straight down

[OzHawkeye]

Sent his challenge to faatal. Was that wrong?

 

Incoming "Teleporting, GPS'd, backpack destroying, character resetting, base wiping, hard-drive reformatting, telling your wife about your girlfriend, invulnerable, invisible Zombies". ;-)

[gozer]

problem isn't digging zombies, but all the nonsense around detection. On one hand zeds often ignore you on the surface even at fairly short distance, on the other hand thanks to some spider sense bull♥♥♥♥tery they can laser lock onto you through 40 meters of solid rock and dig straight towards you.

[Kage848]

Rofl. Digging zombies are a threat? Nope. They have already been defeated. The underground biome is safe again, REJOICE!

 

Staying safe underground does not take "skill" and it's not a "challange". It only takes some digging.

 

Simply dig a 5x5 pit down to your mine. If you use gravity it dont even take that long. Then make a walkway all the way down. Make a door with a killzone.

 

Not only is staying underground as easy as ever but you now have walking bags of experience coming to you.

 

Your welcome.

 

Ps: does anyone else feel like we are not playing against zombies anymore, but the devs?

[canadianbluebeer]

Sent his challenge to faatal. Was that wrong?

 

Not as long as they target HIM, and leave the rest of us alone.

 

Otherwise, I'm gonna need bigger guns.

 

(or I could just slide the decimal in the damage numbers one spot to the right)

[RipClaw]

Simply dig a 5x5 pit down to your mine. If you use gravity it dont even take that long. Then make a walkway all the way down. Make a door with a killzone.

 

I've been experimenting with some underground bases. A very critical element in 17.2 is the length of the path. If the path is too long then the zombies will start digging again instead of taking the entrance that was made especially for them.

 

After the release of version 17.2, Vedui reviewed its old base designs and found that zombies start digging when you're too far away from the entrance:

(Start at 7:50)

 

I saw your construction for the mine in the stream and in the videos. However, I would lay down some spikes in the killzone because I don't want to interrupt my work every 5 minutes just because a zombie is walking into my mine.

 

Ps: does anyone else feel like we are not playing against zombies anymore, but the devs?

 

I've had that feeling since the release of 17.1 when the zombies started to go into destruction mode when they got falling damage. And with the release of 17.2 the AI was changed again so that the zombies randomly go into the destruction mode when the path is too long.

[OzHawkeye]

Ps: does anyone else feel like we are not playing against zombies anymore, but the devs?

 

Keep in mind, you're getting now the more or less "Best AI Possible" effort from TFP. With the huge caveat that I have no inside information on the subject, I personally expect it'll likely get moved into the Bandits when we get those, and Zombies will be given a more dumbed down version of what they currently possess (and with some randomness thrown in for good measure I expect).

[AlyssaFaden]

Rofl. Digging zombies are a threat? Nope. They have already been defeated. The underground biome is safe again, REJOICE!

 

Staying safe underground does not take "skill" and it's not a "challange". It only takes some digging.

 

Simply dig a 5x5 pit down to your mine. If you use gravity it dont even take that long. Then make a walkway all the way down. Make a door with a killzone.

 

Not only is staying underground as easy as ever but you now have walking bags of experience coming to you.

 

Your welcome.

 

Ps: does anyone else feel like we are not playing against zombies anymore, but the devs?

 

It has been this way for a while. It's a "build this base type to be safe!" and the pimps come in with a "oh yeah? see what our zombies do now!"

[Roland]

The only players who won’t feel this way are those who purchase the game after it’s done. I’m not sure what you guys expect playing the game concurrently with development. I promise there will come a day when zombies will never change from their set AI again. More’s the pity....

[FA_Q2]

The only players who won’t feel this way are those who purchase the game after it’s done. I’m not sure what you guys expect playing the game concurrently with development. I promise there will come a day when zombies will never change from their set AI again. More’s the pity....

 

I do not like this promise.

 

Take it back. I expect the dev team to permanently work on this game until the day I die. I spent like 20 bucks, does that not buy me a lifetime of servitude from a dev team? I mean, TWENTY DOLLARS.

[Hollowprime]

Zombies shouldn't dig,period. What I would love to see though is an entire different spawn mechanic for zombies that are simply swarming your base like in the walking dead universe : The more zombies that exist the higher the chance they will attract more of them ,aka the "horde mentality" . The spawn mechanics would have to be upgraded however as we can't have more than ~70 zombies for each server : A zombie spawn queue could be implemented. A zombie counter will increase beyond the max living zombies NPC limit and as soon as said zombies die and the zombie NPC limit decreases , the counter will decrease as well and an equal number of zombies in the form of a horde will appear ,preferably in the direction the player is not looking.

 

This can actually look pretty epic on both single player games and certainly provide challenge on those huge multiplayer bases that have offline forges but also have multiple scattered zombies everywhere . So how do you counter this form of horde mentality you ask? There are many ways to counter the horde indeed:

 

-You lock yourself underneath and die of starvation

-You try to leave the base and immediately get swarmed by hungry zombies

-You clear the zombies on the top of your base fast

-You let them reach max zombie limit/queue and get a huge number of zombie hordes that can rival bloodmoon without the need to summon screamers (though screamers in the horde would be welcome as it would increase the difficulty of the game even more).

 

Yeah I really hate digging zombies but I would love a more "realistic" challenge .

[mr.natural]

And I love the digging zombies 'cause of the more realistic challenge.

[Lanadon Conners]

We all have to remember that THIS isn't a "Complete Game" yet; It's a platform on it's way to becoming a game. I get frustrated too with some of the changes and tweaks but to be honest, if anyone bought the Gold release and discovered that you could dig a pit 4 squares deep and put a wooden fram over yourself as a roof and were 100% safe during Blood moons, you would be FURIOUS!

 

They make changes and we play and give them feedback. I know I have already gotten my money's worth and I am still having fun testing new ideas. I doubt I will like everything they throw at us and I know I miss things that they have removed/nerfed but I know that I will be logging on tomorrow, chopping trees and smashing rocks... I have another Blood moon coming..

[canadianbluebeer]

I agree, however, going down to bedrock should different. Just where to draw the line though, well, that's an

arguement waiting to happen.

 

Of course, I'd just have all the zeds mill about on top of your pitiful wood frames and wait.

You have to come out some time. (just like critters will tree their prey, then wait)

 

[meganoth]

I've had that feeling since the release of 17.1 when the zombies started to go into destruction mode when they got falling damage. And with the release of 17.2 the AI was changed again so that the zombies randomly go into the destruction mode when the path is too long.

 

Is anyone here of the opinion players should be able to kill a full horde night of zombies with a simple staircase ending in a drop? If not, I consider it a great achievement to find even in this bug fix something to complain

[aloys]

alright, i've got 1,000++ hours into this game, but have been taking a break for a long while waiting for A17 and a stable version of A17!

 

Finding out zombies can still dig and destroy underground bases makes the game unplayable for me. Is there a way to keep a large forge room 100% safe from zombies?

 

I play this game solo. I like building huge horde bases and other massive structures. I play long games, 200+ days. This requires HOURS and HOURS of mining and the same for forging/crafting. In A16 I had a forge room with 10+ forges, 5+ cement mixers and everything else you would except, and i could have easily gone bigger if i didnt stop playing waiting for A17. dozens of boxes full of materials and loot, yada yada yada. Having zombies destroy a room like this in A17 is breaking the game for me. I don't want to use creative to get back everything i lost, thats not the answer.

 

I love killing zombies and fighting hordes. most of the building i do is for horde night defenses. but not having a spot i can keep 100% safe means i cant play this game anymore, lol.

 

GG 7d2d we had a good run!

[meganoth]

in blocks.xml search for "<block name="forge">". Change the values

 

<property name="HeatMapStrength" value="1.5"/>

<property name="HeatMapTime" value="1200"/>

<property name="HeatMapFrequency" value="25"/>

 

to something you like. Similar change to the "<block name="cementMixer">" and you will get practically no visits from screamers.

[RipClaw]

Is anyone here of the opinion players should be able to kill a full horde night of zombies with a simple staircase ending in a drop? If not, I consider it a great achievement to find even in this bug fix something to complain

 

The problem is not that things like the loop are fixed but that the destruction mode is apparently taken as the universal solution for all problems.

 

By the way, as a side effect, the zombies already go into destruction mode when the fall damage is caused by you shooting at them and throwing them backwards.

 

Also the changes for 17.2 have side effects on the behavior of the zombies. They now hit through the back wall of the closets they are standing in instead of waiting for you to enter the room.

[12pack]

something about zombies and digging...

ya know, i can really get the dogs digging, and the off-put nasty, rotting, less-than-dead folks following them into the hole to get to the life that beckons beyond...

 

yeah. that's all.

a statement.

 

looking forward to trying 18 as it will be.

sorry, i was late to the party.

[meganoth]

The problem is not that things like the loop are fixed but that the destruction mode is apparently taken as the universal solution for all problems.

 

I assume you hint at zombies that should be going in a straight line to the players position if the path is too long? Are you sure this isn't already implemented?

 

I remember when I had a drop pit horde base the zombies on horde night didn't dig down immediately (i.e. destroy mode) but ran to a block directly before the pit edge and then dug down. It must have been more than 40 blocks from the spawn point to my position at bedrock.

 

By the way, as a side effect, the zombies already go into destruction mode when the fall damage is caused by you shooting at them and throwing them backwards.

 

Not sure this is a bad thing. It is one more reason for stilt bases to need really strong fundaments.

 

Also the changes for 17.2 have side effects on the behavior of the zombies. They now hit through the back wall of the closets they are standing in instead of waiting for you to enter the room.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but them attacking the cheapest blocks between you and them is NOT destruction mode. And therefore should have happened even in 17.0 and 17.1. If you have a specific counter example in mind, please post it.

 

Theoretically I see two ways this can happen: If you are more than 40 blocks of free path away from them OR less than 40 blocks and the wooden wall has less HP than the longer way plus closed doors between you and them.

 

Is the first case really common enough to be a problem? If yes, sleeper zombies could be optimised to not wake up if they don't find a path to you where only doors and free blocks count.

 

For the latter case players could probably make a bug report so that the back wall of such closets is changed to have more durability. Or unlocked doors and closets doors in pois could have only 25% of their HPs instead of 75% for their path calculation.

[RipClaw]

I assume you hint at zombies that should be going in a straight line to the players position if the path is too long? Are you sure this isn't already implemented?

 

I mean that in general. I haven't seen any changes in the patch notes that have a different solution to a pathfinding problem than the destruction mode.

For example, you could have let the zombie take an alternative route instead of trying to destroy the environment. Only if this doesn't succeed he goes into the destruction mode. With the destruction mode the developers make it easy for themselves. Just let the zombie hit a few blocks. Let's see what falls down.

 

When the destruction mode was announced Madmole showed on Twitter a picture of a destroyed hut after a horde night. There were only ruins left. I have little desire that my bases, in which I invest much work and time, look in the end like this.

If it's no longer possible to fight the zombies with anything other than pure firepower then I completely turn off the horde nights because that's too stupid for me. Then 7 Days to die is not much different than brain-dead shooters like World War Z.

 

I remember when I had a drop pit horde base the zombies on horde night didn't dig down immediately (i.e. destroy mode) but ran to a block directly before the pit edge and then dug down. It must have been more than 40 blocks from the spawn point to my position at bedrock.

 

The zombies had no alternative faster way. The decision seems to be a matter of time.

 

JaWoodle has illuminated the whole thing beautifully in a video:

 

 

He has determined through tests that the zombies only take the longer way if they are faster at their destination than if they hit their way through the wall. In your case the zombies would have had to hit their way through a lot of earth and stone if they had started digging right at the spawn point. That's why they ran straight at you first.

 

Not sure this is a bad thing. It is one more reason for stilt bases to need really strong fundaments.

 

I used a stilts base as my forge room until recently. The stilts were 2x2 blocks and after several upgrades reinforced concrete. If one surrounds the stilts with spikes it is relatively safe against wandering hordes and screamers.

 

However against a high gamestage bloodmoon horde I would not use a stilts base. Not with standard settings. The block damage is simply too high with standard settings at the moment.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but them attacking the cheapest blocks between you and them is NOT destruction mode. And therefore should have happened even in 17.0 and 17.1. If you have a specific counter example in mind, please post it.

 

I first noticed this behavior during a quest. I entered the POI through the garage and was very loud. This apparently woke up a zombie in a room directly adjacent to the garage. He hit his way through the wall. When I looked up where the zombie actually came from, I noticed that he was in a closet. He bashed through the 300 HP backwall instead of hitting the 1 HP wall in the front of him and using the regular path. This behavior has come to me in the meantime already several times.

 

Theoretically I see two ways this can happen: If you are more than 40 blocks of free path away from them OR less than 40 blocks and the wooden wall has less HP than the longer way plus closed doors between you and them.

 

That was a maximum of 10 blocks + one door. And before 17.2 I never saw this behavior.

 

Is the first case really common enough to be a problem? If yes, sleeper zombies could be optimised to not wake up if they don't find a path to you where only doors and free blocks count.

 

For the latter case players could probably make a bug report so that the back wall of such closets is changed to have more durability. Or unlocked doors and closets doors in pois could have only 25% of their HPs instead of 75% for their path calculation.

 

Since this behavior that the zombie takes the shortcut instead of the long way contains a random component, it is difficult to reproduce the whole thing.

 

Actually, the developers who build the dungeons should notice that. Their elaborately designed ghost train ride is then sabotaged by the unpredictable behavior of the AI.

[Roland]

You can't sabotage a dungeon that was explicitly and knowingly built within a fully destructible environment. They are fully okay with zombies stupidly going through the back of a closet or losing interest in a long path and going into destruction mode. If you are scratching your head wondering why a zombie would do something so stupid...great. They are working properly. This is what everyone wanted: Dumber zombies.

 

You're Welcome! --TFP

[RipClaw]

You can't sabotage a dungeon that was explicitly and knowingly built within a fully destructible environment. They are fully okay with zombies stupidly going through the back of a closet or losing interest in a long path and going into destruction mode.

 

I strongly doubt that someone who has put a lot of time and effort into building a labyrinth is happy when all his work is thrown overboard because someone decided to use a shortcut to solve a problem.

 

If you are scratching your head wondering why a zombie would do something so stupid...great. They are working properly. This is what everyone wanted: Dumber zombies.

 

You're Welcome! --TFP

 

I don't wonder what the zombie is doing because I understand the logic behind the AI. What I've tried to make clear is that using the destruction mode as a universal solution has unintended side effects. I know this from software development when a quick simple solution to a problem suddenly has unintended side effects.

 

And they're not stupid zombies, they're random acting zombies. There is a difference.

 

A dumb zombie wouldn't hit weak points of a base. He wouldn't make a difference between a block of wood and a block of concrete. A dumb zombie would not dig his way past a pit in an underground base, but would simply fall into the pit.

 

Intelligence with zombies is no problem for me if I can predict their behavior. Zombies acting randomly is a problem for me because you can't predict random behavior. So you can't plan for it. And if you are reduced to using only firepower instead of using clever base design then the game is nothing more than a stupid shooter.

 

What people understand as dumb are the old zombies but they didn't have a destruction mode and didn't act randomly. What would be the worst that could happen to this game in terms of base building are completely unpredictable acting zombies with destruction mode and high block damage.

[Roland]

I strongly doubt that someone who has put a lot of time and effort into building a labyrinth is happy when all his work is thrown overboard because someone decided to use a shortcut to solve a problem.

 

Then you would be strongly wrong. I have the benefit of actually talking to the gentlemen involved rather than making assumptions and speculations and relying on doubts.

 

If they felt as you believe they should then every dungeon POI would be land claimed. But they are not because they don’t mind how the players choose to approach the POIs.

 

 

What people understand as dumb are the old zombies but they didn't have a destruction mode and didn't act randomly. What would be the worst that could happen to this game in terms of base building are completely unpredictable acting zombies with destruction mode and high block damage.

 

We’ve had this discussion before and will have to agree to disagree. Random and unpredictable behavior is much better than patterned and predictable behavior. I think your view is held by a small minority and I hope for the sake of the game the devs continue to come up with ways to make them unpredictable.

[RestInPieces]

I think your view is held by a small minority and I hope for the sake of the game the devs continue to come up with ways to make them unpredictable.

 

If I remember correctly, you had said in the past that faatal was working or wanted to work on zombie combat random behavior. Any word or details on that?

[RipClaw]

We’ve had this discussion before and will have to agree to disagree. Random and unpredictable behavior is much better than patterned and predictable behavior. I think your view is held by a small minority and I hope for the sake of the game the devs continue to come up with ways to make them unpredictable.

 

Everyone thinks of themselves as belonging to the majority. Both of us are no exception.