minisith Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 There is one main feature that I dearly missed and has my games feeling not as fulfilling. Caves. Some of the best exploring was in caves for the feeling of being trap in a small place below everything. It was a change of pace where when you finally had to come out of a cave or found an exit, experiencing the open sky after hours of not seeing it, maybe days, was a feeling like no other. Is the cave system totally abandoned or is it going to be revived? The last I heard was they were adding it but with the bedrock level raised I do not know if the caves are still going to be a feature. Give us back the cave system! My game is not the same as before when I could happen on a cave to jump down just to explore the tunnels or escape the hoard to get lost and hoping I do not starve to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewcu Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I was just thinking this recently! My first ever game was on console and i found all kinds of caves in Random world. I didnt seem to find any in navesgame though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxx73 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 I really miss this also. One of the best game-play experiences was in a deep a cave we needed to rescue a friend after he fell down by accident. Its sad that the developer remove more of the one unique thing about this game, the destructible world. They should build on it, came up with new ideas how to use it, instead they limit it and seem to be moving away from it. Soon they will be like any other survival game, and then they will lose against more well made games with better graphics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 It’s not that they don’t want caves. They are optimizing and working on a new occlusion system that may solve the issues that were caused by caves. If it works out then there will be caves again and if it doesn’t there won’t be. Madmole has stated several times that he would like for there to be caves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlyssaFaden Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 It’s not that they don’t want caves. They are optimizing and working on a new occlusion system that may solve the issues that were caused by caves. If it works out then there will be caves again and if it doesn’t there won’t be. Madmole has stated several times that he would like for there to be caves. Would love to see caves again, warts and all. What ws the problem with them, Roland? Why remove them? What are they trying to fix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 The main problem was performance issues with players traveling faster in vehicles than the terrain could load. They have to be able have the world be stable for 8 players driving off in 8 different directions at maximum speed at the same time. The problem is rooted in open interior spaces. The same problem occurs when you enter a town with lots of buildings. The open spaces within the buildings cause complex calculations that bog things down and make it hard for the game to keep up with players traveling at speed. The new system is designed to fill up all the empty spaces with a filler block so that buildings and potentially caves register as one solid chunk of blocks with no interior spaces until the player gets close at which point the filler blocks disappear. That is gist of it at any rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 The new system is designed to fill up all the empty spaces with a filler block so that buildings and potentially caves register as one solid chunk of blocks with no interior spaces until the player gets close at which point the filler blocks disappear. That is gist of it at any rate. Interesting. I still don't get why we do have cities atm but we don't have caves, if they are affected by the same problem. Also I would argue that cities are much harder to render and would impact performance much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 I’m all for caves too, but really I don’t miss them enough to really care. The quality of experiencing the exploration of caves was minimal. There was never anything in them to give anyone a sense of awe. I was just happy to find some nitrate. Normally I am the kind of person who gets angry about things removed from the game. Maybe if they were better at least to the point where you could see some potential of them becoming impressive, I would be angry... but that just never happened for me with caves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 The original implementation in A11 was pretty impressive. They were complex, contained wights and other zombies and you could easily get lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 The original implementation in A11 was pretty impressive. They were complex, contained wights and other zombies and you could easily get lost. Yeah see.. if I played A11, I would probably be mad at A12. I would have expressed my opinion, invested in arguments, and would have lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 Yeah see.. if I played A11, I would probably be mad at A12. I would have expressed my opinion, invested in arguments, and would have lost. At least you would have been well calloused for A17... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 No matter even how someone liked the caves, maybe someone and really it didn't matter... But if remove all from the game - will not play in what will be. I can not remember what is really interesting for the gameplay added recently. What? transport? is it interesting? this is in every other game enought, it's to get bored. In addition - the mini-bike has long been in the game. What else? I really can't remember.... but i always remembering that now there are no caves... New zombie intelligence? Everyone laughs at him, it's a shame... (all programmers are do mistake - but, this is even unacceptable to release outside the internal working build!) The caves - were interesting feature. I'd exchange all the transport for the caves that were in A11. Even...perhaps....just if they removed all the transport, i would not be upset - it is was not needed. But it is unlikely that many can understand...Yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 Official 7D2D sandpaper boxers couldn't prepare me for the butthurt this game brings sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 No matter even how someone liked the caves, maybe someone and really it didn't matter... But if remove all from the game - will not play in what will be. I can not remember what is really interesting for the gameplay added recently. What? transport? is it interesting? this is in every other game enought, it's to get bored. In addition - the mini-bike has long been in the game. What else? I really can't remember.... but i always remembering that now there are no caves... New zombie intelligence? Everyone laughs at him, it's a shame... (all programmers are do mistake - but, this is even unacceptable to release outside the internal working build!) The caves - were interesting feature. I'd exchange all the transport for the caves that were in A11. Even...perhaps....just if they removed all the transport, i would not be upset - it is was not needed. But it is unlikely that many can understand...Yes? Personally, I agree with you but vehicles are on the kickstarter goal list and caves are not. If we get caves it is officially bonus material that was never promised. If we don't get vehicles it is officially reneging on promised content that people anticipated when they pledged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 There is one optimization I would try, and that has to do with caves usually being under ground. Their main structure is not visible from the normal terrain. So caves should only load in when the player is near a specified area/volume of one of their exits (where it penetrates the normal hightmap terrain). Caves are then invisible (replaced with a simple blocking replacement-mesh on the terrain) as long as the player is neither inside the generated "exit volume" and not inside a "player changed voxels" volume .. in case the players where digging around near the surface. The world generation could also assure those caves not to generate near any POI, making it not compete with the performance needed for other structures. Overall, densely populated cities (especially with large complex POIs) appear to be much more of a performance hog than cave systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sociopathix Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Overall, densely populated cities (especially with large complex POIs) appear to be much more of a performance hog than cave systems. Sure they are, but large, complex POIs are far more interesting and pertinent to the game than caves. I liked caves, too, but I'd rather spend the resources on POIs if given the choice. Recommend exploring these filler blocks as something that is on/off based on sphere collider around the player. i.e. They're just solid black blocks, but they deactivate while within a player's cave collider. Let's say this cave collider is 25 blocks around the player; all filler blocks within 25 blocks of the player are disabled (allowing the player to move through them), while keeping the other filler blocks enabled even though a player is inside the cave. This might also solve the issue where you see sunlight inside the cave. May be a little hacky, but hey, if it works... Zombie behavior in caves would probably need to be sleeper so as not to conflict with the system. POI filler blocks could be transparent so you can see through the whole building in much the same fashion. Effectively, this would "disable" the structural physics calculations while players were not actually inside the building exploring. This may be what's already planned, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 The original implementation in A11 was pretty impressive. They were complex, contained wights and other zombies and you could easily get lost. It's why, overall, A11 is my favourite version I think. The Caves system is fantastic in it! If Caves do make a return, it'll be a massive boost to the game for me I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 It's why, overall, A11 is my favourite version I think. The Caves system is fantastic in it! If Caves do make a return, it'll be a massive boost to the game for me I reckon. Me too...as long as the broken leg bug doesn't come with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Me too...as long as the broken leg bug doesn't come with it. And the Forge fuel consumption bug. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Me too...as long as the broken leg bug doesn't come with it. ...I don't believe it has anything to do with performance and bugs...no... i can't prove it because it could really be....but...i don't believe... I think there's another reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northstar63 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Reading this post brings back fun memories. When the caves were awesome. Had a base built over a cave, that had a lot of connecting tunnels, and an underground lake. Was like another world underground. Had all the ores available, water supply and an emergency escape route if base was over run. Probably my favorite version of the game, love to see this back in the game at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 It's why, overall, A11 is my favourite version I think. The Caves system is fantastic in it! If Caves do make a return, it'll be a massive boost to the game for me I reckon. Where were you guys in A12? You just let them take it away. #YourFault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Where were you guys in A12? You just let them take it away. #YourFault They weren't taken away in A12. They were still pretty good. It was the A13 engine overhaul and A14 console alignment that spelled their doom. We were there but Telltale was more powerful and so much larger. Guess we can see who outlasted whom though.... Even after A13 there were still caves but they turned into these huge crater like random noise chunks of terrain and airblocks (and doritos) and then they went super simple to where there was just a simple tunnel that stopped several meters in and then pretty much nothing that was randomly generated. There are a couple of cave POI's now but they are set designs and not randomly generated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 They weren't taken away in A12. They were still pretty good. It was the A13 engine overhaul and A14 console alignment that spelled their doom. We were there but Telltale was more powerful and so much larger. Guess we can see who outlasted whom though.... not so sure they were pretty good: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?31353-I-like-the-old-caves-better&highlight=caves #YourFaultToo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Even after A13 there were still caves but they turned into these huge crater like random noise chunks of terrain and airblocks (and doritos) and then they went super simple to where there was just a simple tunnel that stopped several meters in and then pretty much nothing that was randomly generated. There are a couple of cave POI's now but they are set designs and not randomly generated. So, they removed them gradually and hoped it would keep the complaints at a minimum in order to reach their ultimate caveless goal! Why didn't you guys see this happening right before your eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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