Game level based spawns make the game predictable and removes a sense of discovery

[dex314]

The concept of game level is frustrating. Every building I walk into, like clockwork, I can predict that 12 feral zombies will spawn +a group of other randos as well. Yes, I have lived without dying. Yes, I have gathered a certain tier of gear. Yes I have a sniper rifle. What that should not mean is that the world I traverse magically knows this and creates intentionally harder zombies for me. This is an open world sandbox game. Spawns should depend on the map, the specific POI, or the day of the week. NOT the player. There is nothing to explore, no excitement or discovery when WE are the walking box of conditions that will dictate the world around us, rather than us exploring the world that has conditions of its own. I don't have to guess what's inside a building, lurking and waiting to kill me, because I know my game level and that means a very specific spawn quantity and difficulty rating

 

Please return spawn logic to the map. Don't make it revolve around us. I hate knowing exactly how many and which types of zombies I'll find everywhere I go. Also, I hate that they ALWAYS spawn in massive groups. I want some POIs to have groups and some to have a lone sleeper. I want variety, discovery, and balance. None of these things exist when my existence is what dictates the spawns. It becomes a repetitive game of walking into a building, spawning 20 zombies, backtracking and killing them. And then trying to loot before they respawn 1:30 minutes later. I want to sneak around. Snipe off the lone zombo... loot in suspense, rather than complete predictability. The sense of adventure is lost when we are what allows us to predict what we will find.

[Katitof]

Without it it'll be just steamrolling with maximally modded weapons armor and perked up.

 

This isn't arpg that is supposed to get you godlike feeling and these Zs are mandatory to keep the power fantasy off.

[Hek Harris]

Just imagine that zombies get stronger with time. And that's why we have to become more powerful ourselves if we don't want the few survivors to be permanently exterminated. It is not they who adapt to our level, but we who must adapt.

For me, it works very well like that ^^.

[crazyduck]

Without it it'll be just steamrolling with maximally modded weapons armor and perked up.

 

This isn't arpg that is supposed to get you godlike feeling and these Zs are mandatory to keep the power fantasy off.

 

Would it be really like that? Dont think so.

Also without Gamestages for Spawns it could become a risk to go into a poi cause you dont know what will be inside.

If you make it complete Random sure a high level player could have luck and get some easy zombies but he will not know it before, same a low level would not know he could really easily go into this poi only with some stone arrows and survive.

 

Currently it looks like entire gameworld react to the Player Level and to nothing else.

 

If you look at other Sandbox Games most of them have Random Values for Enemies or Wildlife. In as example Ark (on of the Games often used as example) a Lvl 1 could have bad luck and get attacked by a lvl 200 Raptor fine thats bad luck and thats survival also a lvl 50 player could have luck and find a lvl 10 raptor to get some meat.

 

In 7 Days there is nothing random only the loot selection, 7days has nothing to really shock the players. Spawns inside the POI are always same placement inside this , behind that wall, inside this smalll room, above this small room and wiht gamesstages its not only the same Placement but also you can be sure you get always same Zombies cause your Gamestage is the one and only Rule which zombie will spawn.

 

would be great if you could go into a POI and dont know if inside are Radiated, Ferals, Footballers, Bikers or Nurses or no Zombie. Same if you would not know behind that door is another zombie and above this room are 5 waiting to fall down.

 

But for that the Pimps would need to remove this entire Gamestage stuff and add real Random Spawns in POI and in the World itself without any Level Limitations

[Psychodabble]

The OP highlights a very reasonable gameplay flaw and both responses so far miss the mark completely.

 

The game as it is currently designed still creates this "power fantasy" once you are geared/perked up, it just becomes more and more tedious as you have to deal with a gang in every POI. The OP is asking for more unpredictability, which would actually make the game MORE challenging, not less.

 

Head canon is great, but it doesn't solve the actual gameplay issue. The world should be the determining factor in difficulty, not the player.

 

OP is dead on correct.

[RestInPieces]

Agree with the OP. The world feels more artificial and predictable with level scaling. We would be better off with a multi-layered zone scaling system with large RNG fluctuations.

 

Without it it'll be just steamrolling with maximally modded weapons armor and perked up.

 

This isn't arpg that is supposed to get you godlike feeling and these Zs are mandatory to keep the power fantasy off.

 

Quite the opposite - unpredictability would make the game more challenging and there are less lazy and "cheap" ways to increase difficulty other than rigid level scaling with barely noticeable randomness.

 

Just imagine that zombies get stronger with time. And that's why we have to become more powerful ourselves if we don't want the few survivors to be permanently exterminated. It is not they who adapt to our level, but we who must adapt.

For me, it works very well like that ^^.

 

Yet it's them who magically adapt and such a thing is so obvious to the player in-game, no meta knowledge needed, since global time is not a scaling factor. Whole thing though, is a matter of the player always knowing what to expect, which is never great for an open-ended sandbox.

[Sellsents]

I feel the same way as OP.

 

If I play at all, I play Alpha 16.4. Feels less tedious and is more fun too me. Seriously, I don´t like the new "smart zombies". Hell, I don´t like the whole new AI concept at all. Looting a simple house takes you on a 30 minute kill mission in which you loose your patients and fun and more amunition then anything else.

 

My review to the new changes TFP made since Alpha 17 has made it to the top reviews in my country. A lot of people feel the same way and are not happy how TFP tries to force people into a certain playstyle now. They feel betrayed because they still see the game as a sandbox game in the first place and want to play it as one. Instead the game becomes more and more tedious, gunplay oriented and therefore sadly less fun to play. And yet, TFP doesn´t feel obligated to change course. Why taking peoples complains seriously? Right? Straight with the head right through the concrete wall in the believe that people will accept the new changes at some point, because they love the game enough to not give it up completly.

[Damocles]

So how would I do that - balancing progression with static spawn difficulty - :

Have the map have leveled areas. This can either refer to POIs, POI-types, or regions in general.

 

The player will first start in a rural area with classic abandoned small houses and farms, those contain the standard slow and easy zombies.

 

Later he will move toward small towns, that have weaker zombies in the outskirts, and progressively stronger zombies in the the central commercial and industrial buildings.

 

The later stage difficulties are in the cities, especially their centers with their skyscrapers (and also countryside military installations).

Those have more zombies spawn on the streets. More are feral, and they are generally stronger.

But those POIs also contain the most high level loot on the other hand.

 

The world-map could in general have weaker sections, and harder sections.

 

Roads could also influence difficulty: areas far away from roads will have harder wild-life. So travelling is safer along the roads.

 

There would be not programmed in punishment by progressing up the levels. The player could always choose to stay in the easier regions, or tackle the harder ones.

It also gives more reason to travel to far away settlements, if they have the better loot.

 

"Progression" is then not by some level-number, but literally by moving forward in the world.

[dex314]

 

The world-map could in general have weaker sections, and harder sections.

 

There would be not programmed in punishment by progressing up the levels. The player could always choose to stay in the easier regions, or tackle the harder ones.

It also gives more reason to travel to far away settlements, if they have the better loot.

 

Actually, what you are describing was the original plan from the pimps. The radiation zones were supposed to be the most difficult, so once you were geared up, you could loot there for the highest difficulty and the highest reward. It was an exciting end game endeavor that you worked towards! The way the game is setup now, the entire map is uniform and static because you are what determines the difficulty and spawn values, not the map. That means every looting run is equally tedious and or difficult.

 

There are times where I want a challenge when looting, but then there are times, since it is a sandbox game, I want to be able to look back on my progress and feel more powerful and established. If I want to step into a bar with just a 44 mag to find a quick beer, it should not be the same prolonged battle as I would find when hunting for high level gear in a factory. As the game is now, this forces you to be armed to the teeth for any looting run. Melee has been rendered very difficult to use indoors since there are always multiple ferals which are hard to kill up close before other ferals surround you. In the past, since spawns indoors were random, a player could risk bringing just a club to kill the one or two sleepers, but now, there's no suspense because you always know there will be a horde.

 

To respond to other comments, yes, the game should provide difficulty, but return it to a system where players can go into difficult areas for higher rewards and not force the difficulty upon them. By forcing it based on player level and game stage, it removes the excitement and feeling of discovery.

 

Edit: silly narrative to show the contrast:

 

"Let's check out this poi!" creeps around, only finds 2 zombies

"Phew, we got lucky man! What about this building?" Finds 12

"AHH RUNN!!!!" ::blood pumpings::

 

Vs

 

"Yo lets check out this building. We already know its going to be 8 ferals and 5 regulars." Kills them all

"Yo lets check out this next building. We already know its going to be 8 ferals and 5 regulars." Kills them all

"Oh hey lets check out this building. We arleady know its going to be 8 ferals and 5 regulars." kills them all

"Dude this poi is awesome; I wonder what we'll find inside! Oh right, 8 ferals and 5 regulars." Yay...

 

I know this is an over simplification of the spawn mechanics, but i hope it conveys how this setup is tedious and predictable rather than "fun because it is difficult"

[Scyris]

I feel the gamestage needs to work how it does with loot, higher gamestage=chance of better loot but its never guarnteed even if you max the loot bonus skill. The zombies should be the same, radiatied/feral can't show up until past a certan gamestage to protect newer players, once past that gamestage, there is a increasing chance, but it should never get like it is now where every single zombie ends up as the same radiated ferals. Just like loot, no matter how much of a loot bonus you have, you'll never have 100% chance of tier 6 items in loot always.

 

Then again once I get access to craft steel I feel like the game is over, as there is really nothing else to strive for anymore. I don't know how people can make it to day 50, I am bored out of my mind before day 21 usually.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Actually, what you are describing was the original plan from the pimps. The radiation zones were supposed to be the most difficult, so once you were geared up, you could loot there for the highest difficulty and the highest reward. It was an exciting end game endeavor that you worked towards! The way the game is setup now, the entire map is uniform and static because you are what determines the difficulty and spawn values, not the map. That means every looting run is equally tedious and or difficult.

 

There are times where I want a challenge when looting, but then there are times, since it is a sandbox game, I want to be able to look back on my progress and feel more powerful and established. If I want to step into a bar with just a 44 mag to find a quick beer, it should not be the same prolonged battle as I would find when hunting for high level gear in a factory. As the game is now, this forces you to be armed to the teeth for any looting run. Melee has been rendered very difficult to use indoors since there are always multiple ferals which are hard to kill up close before other ferals surround you. In the past, since spawns indoors were random, a player could risk bringing just a club to kill the one or two sleepers, but now, there's no suspense because you always know there will be a horde.

 

To respond to other comments, yes, the game should provide difficulty, but return it to a system where players can go into difficult areas for higher rewards and not force the difficulty upon them. By forcing it based on player level and game stage, it removes the excitement and feeling of discovery.

 

Edit: silly narrative to show the contrast:

 

"Let's check out this poi!" creeps around, only finds 2 zombies

"Phew, we got lucky man! What about this building?" Finds 12

"AHH RUNN!!!!" ::blood pumpings::

 

Vs

 

"Yo lets check out this building. We already know its going to be 8 ferals and 5 regulars." Kills them all

"Yo lets check out this next building. We already know its going to be 8 ferals and 5 regulars." Kills them all

"Oh hey lets check out this building. We arleady know its going to be 8 ferals and 5 regulars." kills them all

"Dude this poi is awesome; I wonder what we'll find inside! Oh right, 8 ferals and 5 regulars." Yay...

 

I know this is an over simplification of the spawn mechanics, but i hope it conveys how this setup is tedious and predictable rather than "fun because it is difficult"

 

That pretty much says it, It being more randomized would keep the player on their toes more, compared to how the base game is, where its completly predictable and quite frankly boring.

[RipClaw]

Then again once I get access to craft steel I feel like the game is over, as there is really nothing else to strive for anymore. I don't know how people can make it to day 50, I am bored out of my mind before day 21 usually.

 

I'm on day 105 and above level 200 and still have a lot to do. My current project is a new much larger base where I house my workstations, storage and garden. Then I provide the base with an appealing interior and paint the building accordingly.

 

Normally I have several such work bases because I enjoy building them. And for that I always need a supply of raw materials.

In addition, I build different horde bases to try out defense concepts. That keeps me busy.

[Guest]

I agree with OP and others. I think the biggest omission currently is the risk/reward per biome. There's barely any reason to venture into "difficult" biomes over easy ones. A town in a forest will yield the same rewards as one in a wasteland. Snow and desert biomes are more annoying than risky (especially after early game), and offer few unique resources and no unique looting opportunities.

 

There are hints at biome-specific threat levels in the lumberjacks, burned zombies and dogs, but they're barely fleshed out. We used to have the big city with its difficult spawns and better POIs, but ever since it got removed towns have just become interchangeable loot containers with a homogeneous threat that develops along a predictable arc.

 

Maybe bandits (if they ever get added) will shake things up a bit, but I really hope TFP take another look at the design philosophy behind their worlds, instead of just trying to make RWG look better.

[meganoth]

Spawns inside the POI are always same placement inside this , behind that wall, inside this smalll room, above this small room and wiht gamesstages its not only the same Placement but also you can be sure you get always same Zombies cause your Gamestage is the one and only Rule which zombie will spawn.

 

would be great if you could go into a POI and dont know if inside are Radiated, Ferals, Footballers, Bikers or Nurses or no Zombie. Same if you would not know behind that door is another zombie and above this room are 5 waiting to fall down.

 

There are more spawn locations inside pois than zombies (did you maybe crank up zombie frequency to get this?). For example I usually see about 1 third to half of all closets empty.

 

Apart from this there are still some remnants of zone based difficulty (roaming dogs more common in the wasteland for example) in the game but I agree, that is not enough.

[crazyduck]

There are more spawn locations inside pois than zombies (did you maybe crank up zombie frequency to get this?). For example I usually see about 1 third to half of all closets empty.

 

Apart from this there are still some remnants of zone based difficulty (roaming dogs more common in the wasteland for example) in the game but I agree, that is not enough.

 

Yes on my Server are Modifications , more Zombies spawn outside the POI in the Biomes wandering around chance to get a big horde with up to 80 zombies and such stuff and to be honest for me its much more immersive if i go into a small house possible find 2 or 3 zombies inside kill them start looting and then i see through a window 3 or 4 zombies coming to this house cause i made much noise or something like that.

And sure i could modify the Spawns inside each POI but i dont think this Changes would survive a Game Update .

 

For me this "lets put tons of zombies inside POI " stuff looks like some sort of Shooter Game with small Rooms to get high enough Killcount for the Highscore.

[xxx73]

Yes on my Server are Modifications , more Zombies spawn outside the POI in the Biomes wandering around chance to get a big horde with up to 80 zombies and such stuff and to be honest for me its much more immersive if i go into a small house possible find 2 or 3 zombies inside kill them start looting and then i see through a window 3 or 4 zombies coming to this house cause i made much noise or something like that.

And sure i could modify the Spawns inside each POI but i dont think this Changes would survive a Game Update .

 

For me this "lets put tons of zombies inside POI " stuff looks like some sort of Shooter Game with small Rooms to get high enough Killcount for the Highscore.

 

hey, I completely agree with you, in A15 my games was like this, you manage to do this in A17?

if that's the case, can you please share the files? I will only use it with a few friends.

[Volstag]

I haven't put a ton of time into A17, but I have to agree with the OP. Some buildings should be nearly empty, some should be crammed with zeds, some towns should have more zeds outside wandering around, while others will have zeds camped-out in buildings. Some POIs will feature zeds way tougher than myself, some will feature zeds not nearly as tough as me. It's variety, the unknown, etc, that -- for me anyway -- keeps the game engaging and engenders a greater sense of exploration / discovery.

 

I started in A9, and I've always thought there needs to be more differentiation between biomes. There needs to be in-game reasons for me to adventure in one biome over another. While there are some differences, they're relatively minor. There are some maps / seeds wherein I don't really ever have to leave a certain radius around my base. It's largely the same loot, same zeds, same POIs, no matter where you go.

 

-V

[AtomicUs5000]

I agree to some extent. You have to be careful what you ask for around here. You want variety? Fine. Here’s a small hut you might encounter on day 1, filled with 30 radiated wights with spitting vultures on the roof and a pack of dogs in the back yard.

Definitely don’t want that.

[FA_Q2]

Have to agree in general. I think that this can be done in the current framework though and even retain the scaling that we currently have. POI's should have a minimum and maximum game stage that they spawn. At it stands now, looting a top tier POI on level one is really easy - all the spawns match a the level one game stage. Those POI's should have a minimum game stage where there are always feral and radiated in them. A minor POI should have a maximum that limits those higher tier zeds. Even better if those can be randomized when generating the world and best if it could be randomized to that specific spawn event.

 

You will have some predictability because the challenge will match the POI but it will not be the same predictability between every POI which we have now.

[dex314]

Hey all, I'm glad this has generated some good discussion and that most people are generally in agreement. If the pimps read this far, I wanted to re-emphasize that my main priority is to push for scaling that is tied to the map, biome and POIs, and not the player's level or gear score. I really want players to be able to choose when they want to tackle harder tasks. A sandbox means explore the world around you and that means the world has to have variation between locations. Tying spawns to the players removes this variability--every building becomes the same, regardless of aesthetic differences. Furthermore you have a diminished sense of progress if the world becomes harder the stronger you get. That and for some players who dont emphasize combat and level without dying through other means, it creates a strange incentive to avoid better gear to generate easier spawns. A player shouldn't have to make the choice to be weaker in order to survive better. Let them gear up however they want and leave it to them if they choose to stay in easy areas their whole playthrough; it should be their choice to avoid high risk high reward endeavors.

 

Thanks pimps, looking forward to what you have for us next!

[Roland]

I don't disagree with you dex but I do wonder how much of the problem is simply because of our knowledge about how it all works. When the game switched to gamestages there were loads of people who didn't know and still thought the game was getting tougher by the day count. It wasn't immediately obvious to people that difficulty was based upon the player's level. In fact, I can tell you from experience that if I play at a measured pace of about a level or two gained per 60 minute day-- it feels pretty similar to the way it did when it was based on the day and if my behind-the-curtain knowledge wasn't aware of the truth I would be hard pressed to figure out on my own that it was my leveling up that was driving the difficulty curve.

 

For the record, I would love zones of greater and lesser difficulty and more randomness in what we might find in each POI.

[bdubyah]

For the record, I would love zones of greater and lesser difficulty and more randomness in what we might find in each POI.

 

This. There needs to be some areas, hell at least just certain POIs that are way harder, even on Day 1. Like, you can't possibly get through it on Day 1 hard.

 

I also think more zombie types, along with limiting what can be in each POI would be nice as well. Seems weird that you can get zombie strippers and cheerleaders coming out of both a Shotgun Messiah factory and the basic cabin at the same time. Lol.

[meganoth]

This. There needs to be some areas, hell at least just certain POIs that are way harder, even on Day 1. Like, you can't possibly get through it on Day 1 hard.

 

I also think more zombie types, along with limiting what can be in each POI would be nice as well. Seems weird that you can get zombie strippers and cheerleaders coming out of both a Shotgun Messiah factory and the basic cabin at the same time. Lol.

 

The strippers and cheerleaders were in the Shotgun Messiah factory for the shooting of a weapons commercial when the apocalypse came. Totally legit.

 

-----

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the top of that factory and the skyscrapers proof of harder areas already in the game? If you go there in mid game you will get glowing while down in the factory ground floor you will get mostly workers.

 

So the ability is there, just maybe a little too subtle.

[FA_Q2]

The strippers and cheerleaders were in the Shotgun Messiah factory for the shooting of a weapons commercial when the apocalypse came. Totally legit.

 

-----

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the top of that factory and the skyscrapers proof of harder areas already in the game? If you go there in mid game you will get glowing while down in the factory ground floor you will get mostly workers.

 

So the ability is there, just maybe a little too subtle.

 

Go to the top on day one. Don't think you are even going to get a feral let alone a radiated.

 

There are some spawns that are more likely to be stronger enemies but as far as I can tell they are also all tied to game stage.

[meganoth]

Go to the top on day one. Don't think you are even going to get a feral let alone a radiated.

 

There are some spawns that are more likely to be stronger enemies but as far as I can tell they are also all tied to game stage.

 

Sure, but that is a result of the effect being too weak and a small number of zombie difficultiy steps. And on day 1-2 even reaching top levels would be very difficult for the average player. Probably TFP will not invest much time to surprise experienced players on a speed-run.

[FA_Q2]

Sure, but that is a result of the effect being too weak and a small number of zombie difficultiy steps. And on day 1-2 even reaching top levels would be very difficult for the average player. Probably TFP will not invest much time to surprise experienced players on a speed-run.

 

The point is that it is not difficult to reach the top on day one - it is a walk in the park because there is noting but standard zeds. They do not pose a threat to a sleeping player - low levels against them are not all that relevant.

 

A SG HQ should be impossible to scale in the early game. Of course, changes would need to be made on leveled loot as well - it retains the same issues that leveled difficulty does.