Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[beHypE]

If we go there (no discussions of it at all for years tbh) we'd do some kind of animal forge (chicken coop block) where you put a chicken in and the 3d model and ai disappear, you then add feed and it produces eggs and feathers.

 

Honestly that's a pretty good idea. It's by no means perfect but it's essentially a workstation with an ongoing clock that yields something, kind of a mix of smelting and crafting in a forge. You probably have all the framework bits you need to do this pretty easily, the only concern is art so that it doesn't look too cheesy, and balance (not being too easy to mass produce eggs & feathers with low maintenance costs).

 

The best part is that it would probably serve as a pretty good first brick for modders.

[madmole]

Can we have Arrow goes through broken Door, I mean we can visibly view against the broken door, but arrows cannot go through, seems little out. Or change the graphics of door to now show what is on other side of door until it is completely broken ?

 

Doors will *hopefully* get a new design. No more changing materials and switching blocks on destroy. In fact everything will destroy when broken. However we will display damage models at a certain % of health. No more grinding through a 7k block just to have another 7k block spawn in its place. One 14k door will do just fine, thank you.

[RipClaw]

Are you still arguing from a 17.2 perspective or have you tried 17.4 yet? There were a lot of adjustments to randomize behavior and make it so that zombies would abandon long pathways.

 

The behavior of the zombies in A17.4 is nevertheless quite uniform.

 

The zombies are still a group of conga dancers running behind each other instead of using the whole width of a passage. In addition, all zombies still hit the same block instead of spreading across the entire length of a wall.

 

I think it's these two points that bother the players the most.

 

The path of a single zombies should have a slight variation so that they use the whole width of a passage.

And they should also have a certain variation when it comes to which block they attack. If everyone concentrates on the block with the lowest HP then everyone will always hit the block that was first damaged.

[madmole]

Zombies might have better senses in terms of smelling where brains are and being able to see heat maps, but in the example, they had knowledge about the structure that they hadn't seen. Nothing to do with me as a player.

 

In my mind I don't think they really need to acquire the block knowledge at any point. The only knowledge they should have is that BRAAAAAINS are in that skull of the person they are looking at, and then they go for it. Like they did in previous alphas.

 

When A17 first hit, I saw a lot of angry posts about the 'structural engineer' zombies, but then they mostly quietened down when Roland said the new AI was just a baseline for the bandits, and would be be adjusted down for the zombies. It does not sound like that is your intention. It sounds like you are happy with how they behave. Am I correct in thinking that?

 

He's done some changes. There are "dumb" zombies that can path in a straight line now and some structural engineers. I made a larger fort and I'm now paying for it, running around like a chicken with my head cut off shooting everything from all angles of my base.

[SnowDog1942]

. No more changing materials and switching blocks on destroy. In fact everything will destroy when broken. However we will display damage models at a certain % of health. No more grinding through a 7k block just to have another 7k block spawn in its place

 

When is this planned for? A19?

[madmole]

Not to go back to this but I've been thinking about those wall textures a lot lol. I hope you're right Joel and I hope the art team makes the textures less grim not the other way around. Alpha 17 was great on deco and poi building as far as level design goes. So yes it does look better but I don't think it was the textures that did it. I'm sure the guys from id are doing an amazing job but can the pois feel relatively hospitable so that touring around them is slightly pleasant. What is the new rendering going to improve?

 

Its only going to get more depressing and grungier dude, so don't even get your hopes up. If you don't like the place, build your own base or paint it. We'll include a few newer/nicer looking paints at some point, but what you really need is a modded texture pack, because your preferences go against our game design.

 

We're switching to linear space lighting so it will light much better, and allow us to use shader graph and HDRP, so we're slowly getting rid of custom shaders that never work on odd platforms and using unity's latest greatest stuff.

[meganoth]

Its a bug,but I was at some old mine POI and the thing literally started collapsing and I was dodging falling blocks and zombies while trying to spam med kits and survive. Most games need months and months of work to achieve a bug that fantastic.

 

On that topic, a friend of mine who likes to do mining told me that it needs to be more hazardous again, i.e. less SI stable, more apt to collapse and more need to add supports.

 

It seems in early A17 desert sand was maybe too fragile (prompting a royal forum poster to voice his displeasure ) and maybe got balanced too much into the other direction. Making normal biomes digging too carefree(?)

[Guppycur]

You know this will never work. All traders would get killed off and a big portion of the game would be broken just so a few jerks can try to be bandits.

 

We could make it work, but its probably not worth the effort. Basically the trader would insta gib you if you attack him and have auto turrets running and make the game a lot slower all a bunch of work just to let players try to kill him. THen if they did we'd need to resurrect him or make him defeated but not dead. We'll have bandit forts you can raid for that sort of thing, might as well leave traders alone, the end result would 99% of the time be the same as what we have now.

 

I know this is an "agree to disagree" situation so at this point it's just discussion, but I don't use traders, like, at all, so I don't see it this way. If a18 on up requires the use of traders then I'd consider it a failing.

 

They should be a bonus not a requirement, so if ♥♥♥♥heads want to go around killing them, then it should be the non ♥♥♥♥heads responsibility to prevent them. That could be fun.

 

Besides, if the trader's relatives came to replace them with an even meaner demeanor and more defenses, you could still have your traders.

[madmole]

Honestly that's a pretty good idea. It's by no means perfect but it's essentially a workstation with an ongoing clock that yields something, kind of a mix of smelting and crafting in a forge. You probably have all the framework bits you need to do this pretty easily, the only concern is art so that it doesn't look too cheesy, and balance (not being too easy to mass produce eggs & feathers with low maintenance costs).

 

The best part is that it would probably serve as a pretty good first brick for modders.

 

It could even have a chicken or two in there enabled when you add one, that doesn't have ai, its just an animated thing that walks around for immersion.

[Guppycur]

And everyone doing quests for that trader gets a "Mission failed" and rage quits. Its just a bad idea to let people raid/kill traders when we could be doing cool stuff like bandits, infiltration quests, blow up the building quests, etc.

 

Naw, then the quest gets assigned to the nearest trader afterwards.

 

....there's says to make it cool.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

He's done some changes. There are "dumb" zombies that can path in a straight line now and some structural engineers. I made a larger fort and I'm now paying for it, running around like a chicken with my head cut off shooting everything from all angles of my base.

 

Great news. The more ai packages we have, the better.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Doors will *hopefully* get a new design. No more changing materials and switching blocks on destroy. In fact everything will destroy when broken. However we will display damage models at a certain % of health. No more grinding through a 7k block just to have another 7k block spawn in its place. One 14k door will do just fine, thank you.

 

Also great news! Goodbye magic blocks!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

It could even have a chicken or two in there enabled when you add one, that doesn't have ai, its just an animated thing that walks around for immersion.

 

Would only need to add an E to pick up entities, the rest is already just a new model (coup) and current XML technology.

[SnowDog1942]

With the shape selector, what is the fate of the table saw? Id miss having that one extra cool thing in my base. Did it get dumped?

[hotpoon]

Are you still arguing from a 17.2 perspective or have you tried 17.4 yet? There were a lot of adjustments to randomize behavior and make it so that zombies would abandon long pathways.

 

You’re right that I made the statement at 17e that the perfect knowledge AI without variations were just a first pass and that zombies would be dumbed down and bandits would be the smarter enemies. Since that time zombies have been dumbed down and variations of behavior have been coded in.

 

It does sound to me as well that for the sake of challenge and thrills there will always be some zombies that will take a long path so that you get them coming at you from everywhere— even across a plank connected to an adjacent building. Personally I love that and have fun trying to block all access points to where I am. I think that 17.4 is close to the right amount of variation

 

My personal experience ends in 17.2 when I stopped playing, and I swore I wouldn't return to the game until something is done about the AI, so I've been keeping an eye on the forums to see if anything has been changed, and asking questions. Looks like you and Madmole think it has improved, while others are still complaining.

 

I was 100% happy with their stupidity in previous alphas. I'm sure TFP aren't going back to that for whatever reason, but I sure hope they swing more in that direction.

[meganoth]

You know this will never work. All traders would get killed off and a big portion of the game would be broken just so a few jerks can try to be bandits.

.

 

There are the open (PvP and PvE) servers where this won't work, but there is a large group of players in SP and co-op on private servers too. And for those such an option would be a very positive thing.

 

We know that because we already played game mods that tried to do this, sadly until now only working imperfectly.

[Lonestarcanuck]

And everyone doing quests for that trader gets a "Mission failed" and rage quits. Its just a bad idea to let people raid/kill traders when we could be doing cool stuff like bandits, infiltration quests, blow up the building quests, etc.

 

LOL Well you did not share all the logic like "Quest failure for everyone"! that changes the mission to protect the Trader now

 

So can I build a quest that one trader gives but must be turned into another specific trader?

[madmole]

When is this planned for? A19?

 

Not yet, we'll decide the 19 roadmap when 18 is done. The new overhead garage door is this way. It doesn't have any downgrade models though, but 21k hitpoints.

 

Doors are now upgraded with doors too, because players don't need free vault mech parts and springs and stuff. So the upgrade material is a vault door.

[Cazmyr]

Not yet, we'll decide the 19 roadmap when 18 is done. The new overhead garage door is this way. It doesn't have any downgrade models though, but 21k hitpoints.

 

Doors are now upgraded with doors too, because players don't need free vault mech parts and springs and stuff. So the upgrade material is a vault door.

 

That is an interesting idea. So, when you want to upgrade your door from wood to iron you make an iron door in your inventory and then right click the wooden door and it uses the made iron door as material?

[madmole]

I know this is an "agree to disagree" situation so at this point it's just discussion, but I don't use traders, like, at all, so I don't see it this way. If a18 on up requires the use of traders then I'd consider it a failing.

 

They should be a bonus not a requirement, so if ♥♥♥♥heads want to go around killing them, then it should be the non ♥♥♥♥heads responsibility to prevent them. That could be fun.

 

Besides, if the trader's relatives came to replace them with an even meaner demeanor and more defenses, you could still have your traders.

 

Blah blah blah you didn't read the key thing I said: A lot of work for the same end result. If traders are killable and then get replaced, we might as well leave the protection and do real stuff, like work on bandits. Why work on a simulation when we're working on a game? If killing the trader respawns another what is the purpose? The net result is the same, without making players angry their quest failed because a 9 year old had to kill the trader.

 

Traders aren't needed to play the game (yet), but about 99% of players love them and our targeted audience (Fallout meets minecraft meets the walking dead) would expect traders in that game.

 

None of this says they will be invincible forever. I'm just saying right now with bandits not finished there isn't one compelling reason to work on this.

[madmole]

With the shape selector, what is the fate of the table saw? Id miss having that one extra cool thing in my base. Did it get dumped?

 

No but its borderline useless. Its still there to craft odd deco things where the recipe doesn't fit the furniture helpers recipe. We need a whole alpha to sort it out, so its still on the possible cut list.

[madmole]

There are the open (PvP and PvE) servers where this won't work, but there is a large group of players in SP and co-op on private servers too. And for those such an option would be a very positive thing.

 

We know that because we already played game mods that tried to do this, sadly until now only working imperfectly.

 

We try not to do any one off designs that only work in one mode. SP and online mode should be identical except for other human survivors running around.

[SnowDog1942]

Not yet, we'll decide the 19 roadmap when 18 is done. The new overhead garage door is this way. It doesn't have any downgrade models though, but 21k hitpoints.

 

Doors are now upgraded with doors too, because players don't need free vault mech parts and springs and stuff. So the upgrade material is a vault door.

 

Just want to say A18 is shaping up to be the A17 i was dreaming about before A17 existed, and much more. A18 might just be a masterpiece, and Im impressed that there even will be an A19 with more improvements.

 

You guys should have undoubedly won the "labor of love" steam award. Thanks for the game.

 

Now back to my normal perverted forum posting.

 

Bewbs

[madmole]

That is an interesting idea. So, when you want to upgrade your door from wood to iron you make an iron door in your inventory and then right click the wooden door and it uses the made iron door as material?

 

Iron no, it uses iron, because iron doors have no special materials in them. Vault doors though have springs, mech parts and steel so you upgrade with that door. We didn't want to complicate early game door crafting, so you can upgrade with basic mats, but if you want to go vault tech, you gotta craft vault tech.

[Cazmyr]

Iron no, it uses iron, because iron doors have no special materials in them. Vault doors though have springs, mech parts and steel so you upgrade with that door. We didn't want to complicate early game door crafting, so you can upgrade with basic mats, but if you want to go vault tech, you gotta craft vault tech.

 

Awesome. Sounds like a nice balance.

[madmole]

Just want to say A18 is shaping up to be the A17 i was dreaming about before A17 existed, and much more. A18 might just be masterpiece, and Im impressed that there even will be an A19 with more improvements.

 

You should should have undoubedly won the "labor of love" steam award. Thanks for the game.

 

Now back to my normal perverted forum posting.

 

Thanks. Me being back in the testing trenches has been really helpful, you need to log 100's of hours to know what the thing needs to be balanced. We're working close with the testing team sharing notes and wrote tools for balancing. Its really come a long ways from 17, the addiction factor is strong. I sometimes think its too easy, but when you play 5-8 hours a day, that is expected. I know a lot of people will get rekt, its about time for me to turn up the difficulty I think. BUT, some tier 5's and horde nights have been a close call. It seriously depends on your preparation efforts. If you prepare to minimize risk you live, easily. If you think "I can wing it" the sting of death is there to remind you lol.

[Roland]

My personal experience ends in 17.2 when I stopped playing, and I swore I wouldn't return to the game until something is done about the AI, so I've been keeping an eye on the forums to see if anything has been changed, and asking questions. Looks like you and Madmole think it has improved, while others are still complaining.

 

I was 100% happy with their stupidity in previous alphas. I'm sure TFP aren't going back to that for whatever reason, but I sure hope they swing more in that direction.

 

It really helps when people having a conversation are speaking about the same things. I don't mean to pressure you into breaking your "vow of abstinence" but if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about from experience you really should play a few hours of 17.4 to experience the AI for yourself and then speak about current issues and not issues from two iterations past.

[Guppycur]

Blah blah blah you didn't read the key thing I said: A lot of work for the same end result. If traders are killable and then get replaced, we might as well leave the protection and do real stuff, like work on bandits. Why work on a simulation when we're working on a game? If killing the trader respawns another what is the purpose? The net result is the same, without making players angry their quest failed because a 9 year old had to kill the trader.

 

Traders aren't needed to play the game (yet), but about 99% of players love them and our targeted audience (Fallout meets minecraft meets the walking dead) would expect traders in that game.

 

None of this says they will be invincible forever. I'm just saying right now with bandits not finished there isn't one compelling reason to work on this.

 

Naw I read you, but now you're changing the conversation to bandits...

 

I'm a "why not both?" kind of guy. If one thing can be done well then two shouldn't be an issue.

 

The net gain isn't "another trader respawns", it's "a tougher, higher prices trader who hates and instantly attacks the guy who killed his brother" moves in.

 

...so those 99% you claim love traders, are not going to kill them and will defend them.

 

Besides, those types of asshats certainly wouldn't be the norm, but they would be fun AND it would obviously be the type of server that wants it, because they would allow it.

 

XML value, trader protection = false. ...the rest of the stuff (tougher relative, reputation system, trader defenses) aren't even necessary, they'd just make it cooler.