Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Vapid Actions]

Stealth build on BM: Ultimately it's TFPs choice on how 'balanced' build A vs build B is. And I'd wager that most of the folks here have enough varied gaming experiance to recall other games when there that "one" build that clearly ruled.

Even as it is atm I don't think a stealth build is horribly gimped during horde night. Maybe it could use a bit more damage output on BMs? Honestly don't know myself.

For MP it's hard for me not to consider that "all the ammo saved" by the stealth player wouldn't get shared out to the team, thus noticably helping out on horde nights.

I agree, the ammo saved by a stealth build is considerable power in itself on BM night. You might not do as much damage per shot, but you have multiple shots in comparison. Not only conservation, but I've found stealth builds to also loot much faster as there's less backtracking, kiting, blocking off passages to create kill funnels, trying to find where that loud angry zombie is. So not only do I have more supplies on a stealth build due to conservation, but I also end up gathering more as well. That's a *lot* of power come BM night.

 

 

Another large factor is that the same exact 'builds' are used across SP, MP and PvP. So what might be a nice team bonus for MP games might be OPd in PvP.

 

Builds are seeing a massive revamp in a18, with weapons being linked to certain attributes, new trees, and the new books. I don't think it's fair to make any calls about the a18 builds at this point as what we've seen is evidence that there will be a lot more variety. I think when you say "opd" (overpowered....'d?) you mean become "imba"(imbalanced)? I don't see why that would be beneficial. Usually you want balance across playstyles.

 

In addition to possibly adding a higher chance for non-crouched crit-shots during BMs for stealth builds, maybe an overall BM 'heat' mechanic could be useful.

 

For examples shake say a third of all BM spawns didn't beeline for the player/s. Instead they would be influenced by the overall heat. So if the defenders were all using bows &/or suppressors, and had spec'd into stealth perks, then the third of the first wave might just wander about. Second wave spawns, minus a third? or maybe w it's own non-beeline third? and if the defenders continue to be 'quiet', and have enough stealth perks, then at the 'end' of the BM there might be quite a few Zs wandering around nearby.

 

Thinking of this as an extreme; entire MP team is stealth build. Would be difficult to balance. Basic mechanic would be to spread out the waves so that the lower DPS of a stealth build isn't as critical.

 

Wait, I thought we agreed that stealth builds already have power during BM due to the increased amount of resources they have from conservation (and in my opinion even more due to looting speed). Why are we talking about stealth builds getting even more power? I personally don't think stealth builds need power for BM night. If you just want a playstyle difference on BM night I mean, I guess they could? but it doesn't really make sense to me. The whole point of "Seven days to die" is about the seventh day event. Your playstyle influences how you prepare for it, but the horde should be the horde imo. Maybe you gathered raw materials to thwart it with strong defences. Maybe you were working on refining to thwart it with traps. Maybe you're a melee brawler, or a ranged sniper.

 

A stealth build thwarts the horde through sheer volume of supplies. And I think that's a fine enough application of the playstyle - I don't personally think it's right to change the base nature of the challenge being overcome, with the playstyle. The challenge should be the same. If only some of the zombies are actually coming after you, the challenge has changed: drastically reducing the difficulty by literally doing nothing and staying quiet. The horde shouldn't be avoided, but overcome or withstood imho. Maybe don't think of it as the "stealth" build, but the "PoI looting" build =p

[archergod]

Just saw the Great Heist video, and all thing good. Though I am worried about my careless game style that will get me killed in A19 with those safety turret guarding gun safes. It will be fun playing against those..

[Callum123456789]

Madmole: Do you guys have any plans to ship more maps during these next few alpha's? I know y'all have talked about it a bit, but if your prefabber's have downtime they can create more worlds, right?

 

Are there plans for Kinyajuu (or someone, but he's the logical choice) to work on an external world building tool? You showed off Gaia once (which led me to create my own custom world linked above), is that the way of the future?

 

that would be good I would like more hand made maps

 

in fact maybe more maps can be utilised by using steam workshop and players can upload custom maps on there maybe? im not sure

won't navezgane be getting map updates though?

[DaVegaNL]

rocks ARE a joke!!!! ohhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! zing!!!!

 

 

I'll sue you!

 

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How does Ozzy Osbourne change a light bulb?

Well, first he bites the head off the old one...

 

Does that count as a rock joke?

 

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What rock group has four men that don’t sing? – Mount Rushmore.

 

Oh man, you must become the heir to my legacy here on this forum!

 

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I was going to tell a joke about Sodium, but I figured ... Na.

 

Nice!

[Adilaris]

that would be good I would like more hand made maps

 

in fact maybe more maps can be utilised by using steam workshop and players can upload custom maps on there maybe? im not sure

won't navezgane be getting map updates though?

 

Yeah steam workshop would be amazing for these kinds of things. Some people are hella creative and have a lot of free time, would be neat to try out a lot of hand crafted worlds.

[TSRViper]

It would be cool if we could wire a sensor to some C4.

 

Proximity mines!

[Adilaris]

It would be cool if we could wire a sensor to some C4.

 

Proximity mines!

 

That would be really interesting, or perhaps be able to tether them to trip wires as traps. Or to switches as remote mines. Actually, if they could be attached in a line like electronics, and they could detonate with a powered switch, you could theoretically do building demolition like that. I think that would be amazing fun anyway.

[Callum123456789]

huh it's been rather quiet in the forums lately

[bitmapman]

huh it's been rather quiet in the forums lately

 

Nothing left to do but wait for experimental and absorb any bits Joel sees fit to share with us, I guess.

[The Gronk]

huh it's been rather quiet in the forums lately

 

It gets like this before the hype train gets started.

 

Everything has been discussed to death and we're down to geology puns to keep us amused. It'll liven up a bit as soon as MM starts pumping out videos, it'll give us something to b̶i̶t̶c̶h̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ debate in a mature and reasoned manner.

 

Updated:

Ha! Strike-though text!

The Gronk 1 - Profanity filter 0

<happy dance>

[Astronomical]

I think its best to have some separation between weapons and tools, so preparation is a thing. I forgot my wrench because I put all my tools away during horde night and when I didn't have it there was a consequence. But yes maybe a cordless impact wrench would be awesome for salvaging.

 

How about some gas powered jaws of life to demolish cars with? LOL

 

More seriously, does this mean the fireaxe won't be a valid weapon anymore?

[sillls]

I was going to tell a joke about Sodium, but I figured ... Na.

 

Yeah, I agree, those jokes are just too salty! Get it!

[TSBX]

How about your US dollars pay for some respect....the guy just wanted to post on the forum....maybe the translator made it seem a little more harsh than what he meant....

 

The guy wanted to post on the forums, correct. The guy also without fault of translation posted that because he paid for the game that he can say whatever he wants. He can within reason, but that doesn't mean that other people who also paid "In * currency!!" can't tell him he's being an idiot.

 

He made a ♥♥♥♥ty comment hiding behind the fact he paid for the game, which is dumb as hell and he should be ridiculed for it. It's a bizzare entitlement complex and should not be encouraged.

[Kage848]

If they were equal they wouldn't be builds. A build has specific strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages. Your build has the disadvantage of using lots of ammo and making noise.

 

It takes twice as long if not more to sneak through and stab everyone in the head than to go through guns blazing, I recently covered this topic.

 

I didn't say you had to kill everyone. You can just sneak through and use zero ammo.

 

You start off by saying if they were equal they wouldn't be builds. Then you make the case they are equal because stealth takes alot longer to clear a poi but run and gun uses more ammo.

 

First point is yes, they should be equal. But maybe it's the word equal that is the issue here. By equal I mean they play differently. One is run and gun and other is quiet and stealthy. If it was balanced they would both be great choices. They both get the job done but play really differently. I think that's the best case.

 

Second point. It will take me way longer to hunt down the materials to make the 500 bullets I wasted going through a poi than the extra time it takes the stealth guy to finish the same poi. This makes stealth a better build. That's imbalance.

 

This all all based on alpha 17 of course.

[TSBX]

You start off by saying if they were equal they wouldn't be builds. Then you make the case they are equal because stealth takes alot longer to clear a poi but run and gun uses more ammo.

 

First point is yes, they should be equal. But maybe it's the word equal that is the issue here. By equal I mean they play differently. One is run and gun and other is quiet and stealthy. If it was balanced they would both be great choices. They both get the job done but play really differently. I think that's the best case.

 

Second point. It will take me way longer to hunt down the materials to make the 500 bullets I wasted going through a poi than the extra time it takes the stealth guy to finish the same poi. This makes stealth a better build. That's imbalance.

 

This all all based on alpha 17 of course.

 

If you're going to invalidate your post you should do it in the first sentence, not the last.

[Kage848]

There's an inherent problem with a stealth build in this game though... You're spending points on it instead of important "builds", and this flaw comes up every 7 days when the gps zombies come.

 

What's the advantage of stealth on a "stealth doesn't work" day? And if there is none, why do that build at all?

 

Also how do you stealth a zombie being something? How do you stealth a zombie in a closet?

[Kage848]

Stealth Build

Pro: conserve bullets

Con: weak on horde night

 

Gun Nut Build

Pro: strong on horde night

Con: spend many bullets

 

Seems fair. The stealth guy will have lots of bullets to spend on horde night and have more time to make traps and passive defenses since he won’t have to mine and scavenge to craft more bullets.

 

The gun nut guy will need to spend time crafting bullets but will be able to more easily mow down the waves of zombies on horde night by taking direct action.

 

Strengths and weaknesses. Why take stealth if it is weaker on horde night? Because it results in a different experience with unique challenges if you played a guns blazing build the last time.

 

Not really seeing an issue here.

 

I do appreciate the effort to balance. And if TFP see this as balanced I'll accept it. But really? Who struggles with horde night?

 

I have a horde every night series and I can kill the entire horde, every night, with just melee. Easy.

 

The t5 towers are the issue. Stealth is better. Period. And I hate stealth. So I'm stuck I guess lol.

 

Ahhh well. If they say its balanced at least they are putting thought in and trying. I can respect that. And disagree.

[Kage848]

If you're going to invalidate your post you should do it in the first sentence, not the last.

 

It's not invalid. In just talking about alpha 17 because I dont have access to alpha 18.

 

The point of the argument is to give TFP things to think about during balance, nothing more.

[bitmapman]

You start off by saying if they were equal they wouldn't be builds. Then you make the case they are equal because stealth takes alot longer to clear a poi but run and gun uses more ammo.

 

First point is yes, they should be equal. But maybe it's the word equal that is the issue here. By equal I mean they play differently. One is run and gun and other is quiet and stealthy. If it was balanced they would both be great choices. They both get the job done but play really differently. I think that's the best case.

 

Second point. It will take me way longer to hunt down the materials to make the 500 bullets I wasted going through a poi than the extra time it takes the stealth guy to finish the same poi. This makes stealth a better build. That's imbalance.

 

This all all based on alpha 17 of course.

 

Keep in mind that we'll be double dipping weapon damage in A18. I don't know exactly how the stats will scale, of course, but presumably a high tier gun with good stats and mods will do quite a bit more damage than now. Combine that with perks from your preferred skill tree, which includes increased damage, as well as boosted headshot multipliers and increased dismemberment chance, I think it's safe to say that a modded, high tier gun with the appropriate perks will absolutely shred compared to now.

 

Maybe with those compounding bonuses the ammo count for a T5 tower will drop from 500 to 200, for instance.

[beHypE]

Kage, can you just stop pounding on A18 balance with A17 "facts" like they still apply to A18 even though you have absolutely no clue about what you're talking ? There's a line between fair skepticism and plain negativity, I think you started crossing it a couple posts ago even though madmole gave you some answers.

 

Why don't you mark the debate in your head and bring it back on once you validated it's still an issue in A18. Besides, people DO struggle to do horde night, just because you've spent hundreds of hours dealing with them doesn't make them ezpz for everyone.

[Ouch Quit It]

Also how do you stealth a zombie being something? How do you stealth a zombie in a closet?

 

Its not his fault that he is in the closet...its just who he is!

Its not like there is something wrong with that! No No

[meganoth]

I would say TFP can mark A17 stealth as perfectly balanced, because one person thinks it is horribly overpowered while another person thinks you are bonkers if you put any points in it.

 

Regarding the t5 towers: I wonder how feasible it would be to make the staircases as as a kill corridor with spike and barbed wire traps to kill most of them in melee and with molotovs? I.e. put spikes on one side of the stairs but you yourself jump down or scale up ladders on the other side of the staircase when you have woken a group of zombies. You probably should still use a gun with a rad remover to "mark" glowies, but apart from that you should be pretty economical with ammo.

 

How do you stealth a zombie in a closet?

 

Shoot closet door with arrow -> closet door is gone -> shoot zombie in closet with another arrow. (if I understood the question correctly)

[Kage848]

I would say TFP can mark A17 stealth as perfectly balanced, because one person thinks it is horribly overpowered while another person thinks you are bonkers if you put any points in it.

 

Regarding the t5 towers: I wonder how feasible it would be to make the staircases as as a kill corridor with spike and barbed wire traps to kill most of them in melee and with molotovs? I.e. put spikes on one side of the stairs but you yourself jump down or scale up ladders on the other side of the staircase when you have woken a group of zombies. You probably should still use a gun with a rad remover to "mark" glowies, but apart from that you should be pretty economical with ammo.

 

 

 

Shoot closet door with arrow -> closet door is gone -> shoot zombie in closet with another arrow. (if I understood the question correctly)

 

Does that really work? You can shoot the door off a closet and it does not wake up the zombie? Lol

 

I did this once. I thought it was a bug. That's kinda strange but useful info, thanks.

[Aldranon]

Does that really work? You can shoot the door off a closet and it does not wake up the zombie? Lol

 

I did this once. I thought it was a bug. That's kinda strange but useful info, thanks.

 

It... sometimes works using a firearm with max stealth perks and a silencer. I never go INSIDE a POI with a bow unless I want to increase the danger level.

 

Maybe early game would be fine with a bow.

[Kage848]

Kage, can you just stop pounding on A18 balance with A17 "facts" like they still apply to A18 even though you have absolutely no clue about what you're talking ? There's a line between fair skepticism and plain negativity, I think you started crossing it a couple posts ago even though madmole gave you some answers.

 

Why don't you mark the debate in your head and bring it back on once you validated it's still an issue in A18. Besides, people DO struggle to do horde night, just because you've spent hundreds of hours dealing with them doesn't make them ezpz for everyone.

 

I'm not pounding on alpha 18 at all. Everyone of my posts were about alpha 17. This has been pretty clear.

 

Any of my alpha 17 points were just to give TFP stuff to consider when dealing with alpha 18.

 

As for people struggling with horde night. Imho horde nights are way easier than t5 high gamestage poi clearing. That's where I need help, and no i dont want to play stealth. Thats all I'm saying.