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madmole

Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!  

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  1. 1. Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

    • A18 Stable is Out!
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Its not that, its being realistic about the demographic audience. Most people have better things to do then play one game for thousands of hours.

 

Trying to cater to 'most people' is a poor decision if that is the intent, it will never work unless you have an infinite budget or better yet a time machine.

 

 

Most AAA games have about 6-10 hours of play

 

Where does this number come from? And does it at all take into account the changing landscape of gaming? Gaming is not like it was even 5 years ago. But I am interested in any legitimate research that can be cited.

 

 

, so aiming for 20-30 with hobby potential is still a very admirable design goal. The fact people play it 5000 hours or more is just bonus. I'm happy if I buy a game I play for more than 2 hours. If I can get 20-30 hours out of a game I'm super happy with it. We do want to create games that can become a hobby, but we can't expect people to play for thousands of hours and people who have played it for thousands of hours can't expect us to keep making it fun for them.

 

Then your on a slippery slope of adding late game crap 2% of players see. Its better to have less content that is super engaging for 20 hours than a ton of content that is meh or blocked.

 

Late game crap should be relegated mainly for modders, there are a crap ton of new gamers that are growing exponentially that require a game to have moddability for them to play so that they can take advantage of others additiions. It's the only reason I play it and mod for it. Creating a tremendous support network for the modders, in m perception is paramount to greater sales. How many people have bought the game cause a friend raved how awesome it was. (I bet a good portion of sales in that small hours basis in triple A titles is from those people's people). I know I bought numerous copies for friends who may or may not have played. Maybe poll those users who are more frequent to see how many times they bought the game for others?

 

 

Like I have to wonder how many players actually legit got tek gear in Ark on vanilla servers lol. What a waste of time making all those models and code for that stuff nobody ever got to use it unless they cheated.

 

 

Considering that in the past 30 days Ark has had nearly 4x the amount of users is an indicator that possibly they did something right, and historically they greatest number of players that peaked for 7 days to die has never even surpassed the average players base in Ark. They are likely going to have many players who will enjoy that end game content. And again it is likely that those players are major influences in the smaller time invested player purchases.

 

 

There are a lot of things that you say that I really enjoy and get excited about but if TFP are focusing on the casual gamer your best bet is through upgrading the modders tool kit and taking extra serious what the modders are calling out for. Just my two cents.

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Over the past few days I've been looking at play times of recent AAA games because all of this sparked my curiosity and I wanted to see how true it was. Very, very few have less than 10 hours of game play. For any of those less than 10, you can almost guarantee finding posts somewhere out there of people stating that it was too short. There has been a trend of several AAA titles having 10 to 20 hours. However, for every AAA title in the 10-20 hr range, there is another that goes beyond 100. Of the shorter titles, some are very successful, but these titles have some very unique qualities to them. I'm talking cutting edge graphics, effects, story and overall experience and almost none of them have RPG elements or mutliplayer. If it weren't for this, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't get away with the cost to play time ratio.

 

The last AAA game that I have purchased at full price when it came out was Doom. The campaign I would say is about 15 hours. If it was just the campaign, I would have been ok with it because I am a huge Doom fan and a huge fan of all of id's contributions to the gaming world (I almost cried when Bethesduh bought id, and when it was rushed out with so many bugs, like all the other Bethesduh launches, I felt bad for them... luckily they recovered from Bethesduh's pushy money grab) Anyway... with the multiplayer, SnapMap, and the later Arcade Mode and DLCs I ended up putting in about 2000 hours. If it was modable, I would probably be still playing 3 years later. So, when reading these play times of AAA games, you have to be careful, because it might not even represent all features available.

 

The best thing 7D2D has going for it is also the same thing that is against it. The number of years in development and all the work done to extend its life through modding. However, at this point, the game will be of no surprise to gamers. We have optimizations to look forward to, but in general everybody has an idea what this game is and will be. There may be some little surprises along the way, but nothing that would make this game much different. There will be no huge multi-million dollar sales spike when going gold or if completely finished and over with. For this reason, I believe it is best that no matter what happens along the way to Gold, that opening as much as possible up for modding is the key for ongoing success, where 7D2D will be an incredible entry on TFP's resume to possibly push out some good money makers.

Edited by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)

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Its not that, its being realistic about the demographic audience. Most people have better things to do then play one game for thousands of hours.

 

I guess those of us who spend 1000 hours modding this game, are what then exactly? Thats a bit of a slap in the face....

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I guess those of us who spend 1000 hours modding this game, are what then exactly? Thats a bit of a slap in the face....

 

Just keep drinking your Ketchup...he explains himself later.

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Just keep drinking your Ketchup...he explains himself later.

 

It's still a discouraging view to some of us :( I for one, put in thousands of hours before I even modded. So this hits home on both fronts. I'm an avid fan first, but having just gotten done spending 1,000 hours on 3 passion projects... Kinda sucks to hear that. Not trying to sound rude. Just discouraged at this viewpoint.

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He didnt mean it how you’re taking it. Hopefully you’ll feel less discouraged or attacked as you keep reading. He comes back on and clarified what he means.

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I have no idea how its implemented.

 

I think make the ambient music something you can buy/find. So a CD or something.

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I think make the ambient music something you can buy/find. So a CD or something.

 

Radios/Ham Radios...sort of like in Fallout . Random fragments played here and there , occasional emergency distress calls/quests , looping radio station with music and other station filler or just emergency broadcast replaying , crazy church channel with end of the world repent messages...

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If the death animations and death sounds and the fact that they aren't moving any more isn't enough, then I'd say we failed at creating a satisfying death sequence of the zombie for players to experience. So removing the XP wouldn't do anything, as I think its clearly obvious when a zombie dies. I mean if you stop looking at the XP popout, its actually 100% clear if a zombie is dead or not dead IMO. So your asking us to do work that would benefit noone.

 

Not all zombie deaths are evident...not all zombie kills happen from afar through a scope...not all zombie kills happen in a clearing where you get to catch all the animations and sounds it makes...it is not always time to see or hear what is going on...and I am NOT actively looking at the XP popout, but you know, its a popup...it pops, I notice...it how it works.

 

One of the scariest parts, for me, when it comes to 7DTD is clearing a dark POI for zombies. And that has never been scarier than in A17 with them hiding in closets and busting out when you least expect it, and I thank you for that experience.

 

I remember one house, I entered through the basement and through a stealthy play style started taking down zombies inside. This was working great until I got upstairs and a zombie busted through a cabinet, arms flailing, tearing me a new one. I whacked it, escaped too the living room where one or maybe two, I don't remember exactly, also busted out and wanted to gnaw on me. Again, whack, whack and then I escaped upstairs and was making ready for a fight in close quarters with three zombies using a bad club, hoping there were none upstairs that would add to the fight...and all this racket had awoken the zombies elsewhere in the building, them now screaming for my demise, pounding on walls and doors.

 

Only problem is, instead of feeling the fear of the zombies or any rush for what was to come, the XP popup told me it was all over. I had hit, and killed, the zombies without even knowing it as this all happened rather fast downstairs and I had no time to look for death animations or listen for death sounds over the constant racket from the other zombies that woke.

 

The XP popup had taken away from the horror experience of your game. Instead of having to wait and see what would come around the corner chasing me, I could simply move along.

 

...and before anyone starts bashing my play style or tactics you need to know I am only a mere beginner at this game, I only have ~900hrs so I haven't really passed the 1K limit yet. I will get there though, eventually :)

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Madmole I have been searching on all your sites my wife said she has made our base look good but wants a damn waterfall and I cant find anywere if that is possible found one on unity but I dont know if I can bring it into game and have the water texture moving on it if this is possible would love to know if not would you please add the option of scrolling textures after all a happy wife is a happy life and I am going nuts trying to find this for her

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Madmole I have been searching on all your sites my wife said she has made our base look good but wants a damn waterfall and I cant find anywere if that is possible found one on unity but I dont know if I can bring it into game and have the water texture moving on it if this is possible would love to know if not would you please add the option of scrolling textures after all a happy wife is a happy life and I am going nuts trying to find this for her

 

This is an admirable human being right here. And I agree, waterfalls would be pretty nifty.

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Hi madmole! One question, there is a chance in the future to see our dress and maybe the legs of the player in first person view? I mean we always see those naked arms even if I am in full plate armor, i would like to see the armor at least for the arms. Thx and sorry for bad english

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Radios/Ham Radios...sort of like in Fallout . Random fragments played here and there , occasional emergency distress calls/quests , looping radio station with music and other station filler or just emergency broadcast replaying , crazy church channel with end of the world repent messages...

 

YES! This sounds excellent. I haven't actually played Fallout, but I probably should as I've heard it's an excellent game.

 

 

As for 7d2d, it would be cool if you could have a CD player, but it runs out of batteries every few days so you have to buy more/recharge/find them.

 

Or to go really Fun Pimp's style, go retro and, seeing as you can already carry a bazillion tons, add a Jukebox that you can carry around and you have to feed casino chips in to play different songs. Lol

 

Very immersive, I think. Fun Pimps, pay attention! Be the first game ever (again) to implement this. Create (more) history with your game!

Edited by ZombieHorde (see edit history)

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YES! This sounds excellent. I haven't actually played Fallout, but I probably should as I've heard it's an excellent game.

 

Never played Fallout!? You must be on...

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If the death animations and death sounds and the fact that they aren't moving any more isn't enough, then I'd say we failed at creating a satisfying death sequence of the zombie for players to experience.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like it how it is, but its sometimes hard to tell the difference between a stunned zed and a dead zed.

I'm using some of the perks with the hammer which give a longer stun time and the fact the zed isn't currently moving is

no guarantee that he's down for good, especially if you are fighting 3-10 z'eds around you so not paying 100% attention.

 

The number of conversations we have had, " there he's dead. " , "no he isn't" , "now he is", " are you sure?"

 

… which often leads on to "he's dead dave" "they're all dead dave" "every bodies dead dave" "wait are you trying to tell me everybodies dead?"

 

Anyway I like it how it is - not complaining , I like the randomness, and don't pay much attention to the xp anyway.

Not knowing makes it more interesting. But I can understand that people new to the game might not like it.

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There is definitely a philosophical divide on the topic of whether it is better or worse to know when a zombie is dead dead. Some people feel that it is poor design to make the death of an enemy ambiguous while others feel it is good design.

 

I prefer the "poking it with a stick" method of finding out if something is dead, but I might be in the minority here.

 

During the development of A17 this came up when the HP bars were finally removed. I mentioned to Joel that with the bar now gone and ragdolling happening during knockdowns in addition to deaths that it would only take a couple more changes to make the actual death moments completely ambiguous. But he said they were planning final death animations for the express purpose of communicating the death moment clearly to the player.

 

If so, I hope they work in some kind of lore element to it. Example, use an element of The Thing, that when the infection reaches critical damage it tries to survive in the only way it can, by attempting to spread to another host. Exploding zombie heads, anyone? No? Just me? That's cool.

 

So I don’t think his response was “we won’t let you ever mod it away” so much as it was his own design philosophy kicking in to express his own view that knowing the moment of death is important.

 

My own view is more like you in this case. I think it’s better not being quite sure if they are dead or not but there are those who don’t like it that way.

 

And there's no way to make 100% of the people *happy*. Even if they were to make it an option to have death cues, there'd be people complaining about it. Personally, I'd work toward more horror immersion and ditch a lot of notifications. I'd also prefer a perk/skill system that reacted to game play in both active and passive ways rather than the old rpg style of picking skills/perks down a tree. Since this game's focus is on building and survival mechanics, this shift toward manual character management kinda jerks me out of the fantasy aspect of playing this game.

 

That's one idiot's opinion, anyway. :chuncky:

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I know its, possible. Every time I make a post its always out of frustration. Though, I feel that the tier levels should affect the spawning of zombies if on a quest. So, if I take a tier 1 quest as a level 93, it should spawn regular zombies and no ferals or radiated, gives an illusion of choice. Then if I decided to do a tier 3 quest then it should spawn a mix of regular, feral or radiated or maybe have it only for tier 4 and 5 quests only. For some reason, this time around I'm just out of element.

 

Oh. Actually. Yes. Absolutely agree with this.

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Something may have been said to answer this question... but this thread is already getting big enough to be hard to find previous posts.

 

With talk of optimizations and occlusion (not having to render the whole map), does this mean we may see cave networks make a comeback in RWG?

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Is it possible and this will help those tell the difference between a stunned zombie and a dead zombie ... birds flying in circles around their head for stunned and lots a flies buzzing over a dead zombie corpse lol

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Is it possible and this will help those tell the difference between a stunned zombie and a dead zombie ... birds flying in circles around their head for stunned and lots a flies buzzing over a dead zombie corpse lol

 

A Looney Tunes twist... I like it. :D Though I kinda like the flies idea for corpses that have been left unattended. Turn zombie corpses that are left alone into biohazards.

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I actually use that XP pop up as my "is it dead" indicator. Not a fan of the ambiguous deaths. Especially clearing POI's.

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No I have plans to see less complaints about poor performance.

 

Now I know you are delusional.

 

I suspect there will be more complaints. Why?

 

Because complaints :D

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Hello, I'm happy about the new POI in A17, they are finally interesting and there are so many variations. I would like to ask whether similar diversification can be expected with zombies. Types of zombies is quite a lot, but still when it comes wandering horde or Blood Moon I often fight against a crowd of clones. You wrote here about one new zombie, but there is also a possibility of some variation of existing zombies? For example with clothes in other colors with hat, glasses etc.?

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With talk of optimizations and occlusion (not having to render the whole map), does this mean we may see cave networks make a comeback in RWG?

 

I asked this question a couple of days ago and madmole gave the impression that procedurally generated caves were unlikely, at least in the near term, since TFP is currently focusing on "putting out fires" in RWG.

Edited by Slice (see edit history)

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