Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Kage848]

Gasoline nerfed? In what way?

 

How much you can find/make or how fast you burn though it?

 

Yea. Be carefull with gas nerfs please. I'd hate the idea of me not being able to explore large rwg maps because people use bikes to avoid hordes. Just have the bikes disabled on horde night and auto break the players legs. There. No running from hordes and i dont have to be penalized for others actions 😁

[The Gronk]

The heuristic function has to be something. I hear you that you don't like A* in the first place, but I can think of no better heuristic than block HP.

 

I don't dislike A* at all, I just think it's the wrong tool for this particular job.

[Shineblossom]

Ammunition consumption depends on how you fight the zombies. I was able to complete T5 quests without using a single bullet.

 

Most of the time I fight the zombies with the club and the crossbow. The hospital and the apartment building are very well suited for this. But you have to spec in strength and stealth to be successful with this strategy.

 

Well i did have some agility. But for the mobility, not stealth. Then i had intelect because i was builder/enegeneer of our group. Later added some in perc so i have at least some damage, sniper rifle being mostly the only viable choice.

[RipClaw]

I agree, to me it feels like player death has too much influence on game stage. At least for warrior up a less drastic influence on gamestage might be in order.

 

A small anecdote: In my last game I died two times by stepping backwards into my own spike traps (getting damage from two at the same time gave me practically no time to react). I don't think that should give me easy-mode zombies.

 

According to the gamestages.xml file, a death subtracts only two days from the time you played. It doesn't reset the whole gamestage. On warrior difficulty, for example, 3.4 is subtracted from the current gamestage. On insane difficulty, 5 is subtracted from the current gamestage.

 

Not much if you are on already on a high gamestage. The difference regarding the zombies you get between gamestage 95 and 100 is higher than between 395 and 400.

 

If you don't want this you just have to set the value of daysAliveChangeWhenKilled to 0 in the gamestages.xml file. Then nothing will be subtracted in case of death. If you want to create a modlet that does that then this xpath expression would do the job:

 

<set xpath="/gamestages/config/@daysAliveChangeWhenKilled">0</set>

 

If you want I can provide a modlet for you. However, I can't test it at the moment.

[RipClaw]

Well i did have some agility. But for the mobility, not stealth. Then i had intelect because i was builder/enegeneer of our group. Later added some in perc so i have at least some damage, sniper rifle being mostly the only viable choice.

 

Then I can quite understand your high ammunition consumption. But I've read that POIs in A18 are supposed to have more ammo piles to compensate for the loss.

Sounds very good.

[RipClaw]

Yea. Be carefull with gas nerfs please. I'd hate the idea of me not being able to explore large rwg maps because people use bikes to avoid hordes. Just have the bikes disabled on horde night and auto break the players legs. There. No running from hordes and i dont have to be penalized for others actions ��

 

Honestly, I prefer to see the fuel in the game reduced overall than any magical event during horde night suddenly change the rules of the game.

 

Also, it shouldn't bother anybody how others play their game. I bet you'll get a lot of comments explaining that you're playing the game "wrong". I fight the horde in my base, and I don't avoid them. But it doesn't bother me if someone wants to spend the horde night on a motorcycle. Everyone his fun.

 

Besides, you can make your own gasoline. You only have to dig a little for oil shale. Certainly not the most entertaining on Youtube / Twitch but it's part of the game. For example, I recently got over 6000 oil shale from a mine in the desert. That's 72000 gasoline.

[Roland]

But it doesn't bother me if someone wants to spend the horde night on a motorcycle. Everyone his fun.

 

Except the trader doesn’t get his fun since he won’t ever be paid for a room to rent on blood moon night if spending the night on a motorcycle carries absolutely no risk and/or has negligible fuel costs....

[Kage848]

Honestly, I prefer to see the fuel in the game reduced overall than any magical event during horde night suddenly change the rules of the game.

 

Also, it shouldn't bother anybody how others play their game. I bet you'll get a lot of comments explaining that you're playing the game "wrong". I fight the horde in my base, and I don't avoid them. But it doesn't bother me if someone wants to spend the horde night on a motorcycle. Everyone his fun.

 

Besides, you can make your own gasoline. You only have to dig a little for oil shale. Certainly not the most entertaining on Youtube / Twitch but it's part of the game. For example, I recently got over 6000 oil shale from a mine in the desert. That's 72000 gasoline.

 

I think we agree. The issue is that conversation about a gas nerf was started because others are concerning themselves with how others play the game. People use the bike to avoid hordes, so mm starting talking about gas nerfs.

 

And yea, I have a shale mine. If the gas is nerfed it would be ok but I got news for you, your shale mine is next.

 

Its never enough for some people. I dont mind someone having alot of gas, as long as they have to go out and get it, and we do. Some want every bit of gas to be rare and have us walking everywhere. That's not the game I want to play.

[Kage848]

Except the trader doesn’t get his fun since he won’t ever be paid for a room to rent on blood moon night if spending the night on a motorcycle carries absolutely no risk and/or has negligible fuel costs....

 

Theres no way to balance this without penalizing others, nerfed gas and such. Give a solution that does not effect those of us that dont use this tactic.

 

I think if it does not effect your game, like you dont run from hordes, i dont see why it matters to you. Let people play the way they want. That's my motto.

[meganoth]

People use the bike to avoid hordes, so mm starting talking about gas nerfs.

 

Which is a measure that is not going to work to address the balance problem (that you don't see because you think it is about other people), because 6 days a week you want to drive around with the bike (it is a comfort feature after all) without it being as expensive as the whole loot you bring back.

 

And only on one day of the week the gasoline should be in the range of Duke's hotel bill. Not going to work.

[RipClaw]

I think we agree. The issue is that conversation about a gas nerf was started because others are concerning themselves with how others play the game. People use the bike to avoid hordes, so mm starting talking about gas nerfs.

 

That's a whole thread on this subject.

 

And yea, I have a shale mine. If the gas is nerfed it would be ok but I got news for you, your shale mine is next.

 

I don't think oil shale gets nerfed. My impression is rather that madmole wants the game to shift from "I find everything I need" to "I have to work to get everything I need".

 

Its never enough for some people. I dont mind someone having alot of gas, as long as they have to go out and get it, and we do. Some want every bit of gas to be rare and have us walking everywhere. That's not the game I want to play.

 

I agree. Always walking would really not be fun. That's why I'm glad we got the bicycle in A17.

I remember how happy you were in the last A16 series when you finally found the minibike book.

[Roland]

Theres no way to balance this without penalizing others, nerfed gas and such. Give a solution that does not effect those of us that dont use this tactic.

 

I think if it does not effect your game, like you dont run from hordes, i dont see why it matters to you. Let people play the way they want. That's my motto.

 

That’s simply a way of couching the issue in a way that helps you feel noble somehow. I don’t care how others play and I don’t want to penalize any person. I want the game to play fair and be challenging for all play styles.

 

Madmole also didn’t just start talking about a gas nerf because this was suddenly brought up a page or two ago by evil players who hate how others play the game.... He brought up being able to rent a room to be safe at least a year back as the game sanctioned way to avoid the horde.

 

And, again, I ask: what is the point of paying money to escape the horde if you can just do it for free via other methods. Thankfully, as Madmole already mentioned, he recognizes that loopholes will need to be closed in order for this to work. There is a whole thread talking about ideas of what could be done although it does keep getting derailed by others who like to appear as “the Saints who protect the playstyles that are not their own”

[Kage848]

Which is a measure that is not going to work to address the balance problem (that you don't see because you think it is about other people), because 6 days a week you want to drive around with the bike (it is a comfort feature after all) without it being as expensive as the whole loot you bring back.

 

And only on one day of the week the gasoline should be in the range of Duke's hotel bill. Not going to work.

 

Not really sure I get what your saying here. Except I expect to be driving around every day. Yes. This is and should be the case. If I cant get enough gas to drive around 7 days a week that's a failure of the game and an over nerf to the gas available in the game.

 

Running around on foot in rwg sucks. Not fun, not a challenge, simply a waste of my time.

 

Thank god TFP would never do that.

 

If I misrepresented your post I'm sorry. I did have trouble understanding your point.

[Kage848]

That’s simply a way of couching the issue in a way that helps you feel noble somehow. I don’t care how others play and I don’t want to penalize any person. I want the game to play fair and be challenging for all play styles.

 

Madmole also didn’t just start talking about a gas nerf because this was suddenly brought up a page or two ago by evil players who hate how others play the game.... He brought up being able to rent a room to be safe at least a year back as the game sanctioned way to avoid the horde.

 

And, again, I ask: what is the point of paying money to escape the horde if you can just do it for free via other methods. Thankfully, as Madmole already mentioned, he recognizes that loopholes will need to be closed in order for this to work. There is a whole thread talking about ideas of what could be done although it does keep getting derailed by others who like to appear as “the Saints who protect the playstyles that are not their own”

 

That's a fair point. And I'm saying nerfing gas to the point people cant use bikes to run from hordes wont work. If gas would be so rare to not let people use bikes against the horde then how can we have enough to travel rwg for looting purposes?

 

I dont see a solution.

 

I am a fan of having this game be as popular as possible. And removing playstyles doesn't help that. Maybe TFP dont agree. Maybe they think these moves make the game more popular. I can see that opinion, even if I disagree. Or maybe they dont care about popularity and just want to make the game they want to make. I can respect that.

 

I dont think anyone is "evil". And I dont think of myself as a "saint" I simply want the game to do as well as possible.

[Shineblossom]

Then I can quite understand your high ammunition consumption. But I've read that POIs in A18 are supposed to have more ammo piles to compensate for the loss.

Sounds very good.

 

Yeah, that post from MM about ammo piles in large POIs was actually answer to my crying So, let us hope Tho it should also get less ammo consumption in A18 thanks to each "class" having their own weapons.

[Prisma501]

That's a fair point. And I'm saying nerfing gas to the point people cant use bikes to run from hordes wont work. If gas would be so rare to not let people use bikes against the horde then how can we have enough to travel rwg for looting purposes?

 

I dont see a solution.

 

I am a fan of having this game be as popular as possible. And removing playstyles doesn't help that. Maybe TFP dont agree. Maybe they think these moves make the game more popular. I can see that opinion, even if I disagree. Or maybe they dont care about popularity and just want to make the game they want to make. I can respect that.

 

I dont think anyone is "evil". And I dont think of myself as a "saint" I simply want the game to do as well as possible.

 

Its "you drive around RWG and do your thing" OR "you drive all night to avoid horde" in my head. Now the gas is so plentifull that it doesnt really matter. You dont have to choose for what you use it. If they can balance that just right, there will be no prob imo.

 

Cheers

 

-edit- or you save the gas for avoiding hordenight and do even longer drives in RWG by renting a room at the trader for safety ^^

[meganoth]

Not really sure I get what your saying here. Except I expect to be driving around every day.

 

I agreed with you that nerfing gas was not a way to solve the problem of horde night driving. And tried to prove it by showing that gas has to be reasonably cheap 6 days of the week. It cannot be expensive on horde night only.

[Kage848]

Its "you drive around RWG and do your thing" OR "you drive all night to avoid horde" in my head. Now the gas is so plentifull that it doesnt really matter. You dont have to choose for what you use it. If they can balance that just right, there will be no prob imo.

 

Cheers

 

-edit- or you save the gas for avoiding hordenight and do even longer drives in RWG by renting a room at the trader for safety ^^

 

As long as I have my gas needed for the days I drive around rwg I'll be ok.

 

That's some tricky balance though. Making gas rare enough so people dont want to use it on hordenight but still allow us to have enough for the rest of the week? Im beyond spektical that will work lol

 

But TFP have wow'ed me before so anything is possible.

[lord_ahriman]

Theres no way to balance this without penalizing others, nerfed gas and such. Give a solution that does not effect those of us that dont use this tactic.

 

I think if it does not effect your game, like you dont run from hordes, i dont see why it matters to you. Let people play the way they want. That's my motto.

 

 

It reminds me a lot people classifying underground bases as an exploit. That's why I think this "gas nerf thing" isn't a good idea (and a very good reason to keep people away > nerf, nerf, nerf...), because next step obviously will be nerfing oil shale, like you said. I'm not worried about vehicules, but think about horde defenses based on electric fences, dart traps, blade trap...etc.

 

I don't know, maybe overreaction, but I'm legitimately concerned about this "nerf route".

[Shineblossom]

It reminds me a lot people classifying underground bases as an exploit. That's why I think this "gas nerf thing" isn't a good idea (and a very good reason to keep people away > nerf, nerf, nerf...), because next step obviously will be nerfing oil shale, like you said. I'm not worried about vehicules, but think about horde defenses based on electric fences, dart traps, blade trap...etc.

 

I don't know, maybe overreaction, but I'm legitimately concerned about this "nerf route".

 

Well to be honest. If you have enough gas and steel, you can make undestructible base just by blade and dart traps alone. Almost alone. Eletric fence in front of blade traps so bambies get stunned and don't destroy your traps and you can reduce their number, together with dart traps. The rest gets smashed on blades. Have different generator rooms for each side of your base if you make it square. On horde night, turn on the deffenses on that side, where bambies are coming from. It is a long run base. But lets be honest. Early game you would not even need such deffenses.

[JaxTeller718]

I think a lot of people are forgetting this game existed BEFORE A17. How quickly we become married to the idea of a bicycle or things of that nature when we have had them for 6 months or so.

 

Previously the Minibike was the must have item, and it wasn't easy to get for sure. Walking was just fine back then, but now we cant fathom the idea. No one outdrove horde, or if they did horde followed them around something it does not do now. Thats not interesting.

 

BUT what if we look at the proposed idea of renting a safe spot from the trader. Now THAT is interesting. It gives a game sanctioned way of avoiding BM, at the same time forcing the player to have to scavenge and sell to earn Dukes for the right, or possibly earn rep with a faction.

 

Take that idea a step further. For servers (of which a lot of people like to bring up as a crutch) think of the gameplay value in that sanctioned system. What if you could make your OWN safe habitat as end game content. So now you can rent your own room to new players, promoting economy and trade. Or set up a town with taxes. Pay the tax, the player can stay. Enabling the safe habitat system would bring a lot of new functionality to vanilla and to modders.

 

Now isnt that WAY more interesting from a gameplay perspective than just hopping on a bike or jeep and driving aimlessly all night?

[Roland]

That's a fair point. And I'm saying nerfing gas to the point people cant use bikes to run from hordes wont work. If gas would be so rare to not let people use bikes against the horde then how can we have enough to travel rwg for looting purposes?

 

I dont see a solution.

 

I am a fan of having this game be as popular as possible. And removing playstyles doesn't help that. Maybe TFP dont agree. Maybe they think these moves make the game more popular. I can see that opinion, even if I disagree. Or maybe they dont care about popularity and just want to make the game they want to make. I can respect that.

 

I dont think anyone is "evil". And I dont think of myself as a "saint" I simply want the game to do as well as possible.

 

Yes, but I've watched your streams and you enjoy some challenge to the game. You must realize that by supporting those aspects of the game that deliver the challenge you enjoy, you are at the same time denying others who want a more relaxed game. There is no escape from it. Whatever balance is settled upon is going to jar someone in the world the wrong way.

 

Besides, nobody is saying to make it impossible to run away or drive around all night. It just needs to be similar in risk/cost to renting a room all night for however many dukes. That is just simple balance. I really don't understand how anyone could be against balancing these tactics with each other. Nobody has come out against the room fee idea so since it seems everyone is for that then what is this resistance to balancing the game against that?

 

Also, I firmly believe that challenge is what drives the popularity of this game. Loopholes and easy buttons seem great on the surface but they lead to fast boredom of the game and then abandonment. Maintaining a challenge for every playstyle is what will keep more people playing the game and that is what I'm fighting for. I am not asking for playstyles to be cut away from the game-- only that each playstyle has its own brand of challenge, risk, and reward.

[Roland]

I think a lot of people are forgetting this game existed BEFORE A17. How quickly we become married to the idea of a bicycle or things of that nature when we have had them for 6 months or so.

 

Previously the Minibike was the must have item, and it wasn't easy to get for sure. Walking was just fine back then, but now we cant fathom the idea. No one outdrove horde, or if they did horde followed them around something it does not do now. Thats not interesting.

 

BUT what if we look at the proposed idea of renting a safe spot from the trader. Now THAT is interesting. It gives a game sanctioned way of avoiding BM, at the same time forcing the player to have to scavenge and sell to earn Dukes for the right, or possibly earn rep with a faction.

 

Take that idea a step further. For servers (of which a lot of people like to bring up as a crutch) think of the gameplay value in that sanctioned system. What if you could make your OWN safe habitat as end game content. So now you can rent your own room to new players, promoting economy and trade. Or set up a town with taxes. Pay the tax, the player can stay. Enabling the safe habitat system would bring a lot of new functionality to vanilla and to modders.

 

Now isnt that WAY more interesting from a gameplay perspective than just hopping on a bike or jeep and driving aimlessly all night?

 

I think that making your base safe enough to be a safe haven to new players is something you can already do and all it takes is trust to not be betrayed.... I don't think something like trader protection needs to be added to player bases as an end of game status for players to offer their bases as safe zones. But maybe I read you wrong?

[Kage848]

I think a lot of people are forgetting this game existed BEFORE A17. How quickly we become married to the idea of a bicycle or things of that nature when we have had them for 6 months or so.

 

Previously the Minibike was the must have item, and it wasn't easy to get for sure. Walking was just fine back then, but now we cant fathom the idea. No one outdrove horde, or if they did horde followed them around something it does not do now. Thats not interesting.

 

BUT what if we look at the proposed idea of renting a safe spot from the trader. Now THAT is interesting. It gives a game sanctioned way of avoiding BM, at the same time forcing the player to have to scavenge and sell to earn Dukes for the right, or possibly earn rep with a faction.

 

Take that idea a step further. For servers (of which a lot of people like to bring up as a crutch) think of the gameplay value in that sanctioned system. What if you could make your OWN safe habitat as end game content. So now you can rent your own room to new players, promoting economy and trade. Or set up a town with taxes. Pay the tax, the player can stay. Enabling the safe habitat system would bring a lot of new functionality to vanilla and to modders.

 

Now isnt that WAY more interesting from a gameplay perspective than just hopping on a bike or jeep and driving aimlessly all night?

 

As far as the way the game was before, walking around and stuff. Yea, the game has advanced. Imho, and I'm guessing you disagree, the advancements the game has made has made it a MUCH better game. Why go back to a worse game? I know you dont agree lol, but it's the way I see it.

 

As far as renting rooms. That's a hell of a cool idea and I'm on board. Now what is the solution to the biking on horde night. Without nerfing my gas supply?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Yes, but I've watched your streams and you enjoy some challenge to the game. You must realize that by supporting those aspects of the game that deliver the challenge you enjoy, you are at the same time denying others who want a more relaxed game. There is no escape from it. Whatever balance is settled upon is going to jar someone in the world the wrong way.

 

Besides, nobody is saying to make it impossible to run away or drive around all night. It just needs to be similar in risk/cost to renting a room all night for however many dukes. That is just simple balance. I really don't understand how anyone could be against balancing these tactics with each other. Nobody has come out against the room fee idea so since it seems everyone is for that then what is this resistance to balancing the game against that?

 

Also, I firmly believe that challenge is what drives the popularity of this game. Loopholes and easy buttons seem great on the surface but they lead to fast boredom of the game and then abandonment. Maintaining a challenge for every playstyle is what will keep more people playing the game and that is what I'm fighting for. I am not asking for playstyles to be cut away from the game-- only that each playstyle has its own brand of challenge, risk, and reward.

 

Challenge is subjective. We are veterans. Difficulty creep is a real thing.

 

Balancing is not easy. I just shoot off at the mouth with opinions. Its TFP that have to balance lol.

[Roland]

Challenge is subjective. We are veterans. Difficulty creep is a real thing.

 

Balancing is not easy. I just shoot off at the mouth with opinions. Its TFP that have to balance lol.

 

True and we do have to keep in mind new players when balancing. But again, I'm not calling for harder challenge. I'm calling for some challenge...like, at all.

 

Treading water all night is a current tactic that all the water treaders love and enjoy. Am I saying that TFP should make it so treading water is impossible? No. But I would like it if maybe dogs could swim or if once you run out of stamina you start to sink and drown-- but then make swimming take less stamina so you can a least cross rivers without drowning.

 

Driving around all night is a current tactic that all drivers love and enjoy. I'm saying bring some challenge to that tactic as well so that people can still do it but it isn't 100% easy button. Not so much challenge that a new player would never be able to pull it off but some challenge so that it is fun enough that maybe someone like me who likes to defend a base might want to switch things up and try a different challenge for one of these nights.