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madmole

Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!  

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  1. 1. Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

    • A18 Stable is Out!
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Out of curiosity, would it be a simple thing to track zombies by number remaining rather than showing them as blips on our radar during Clear quests? It makes no sense that we'd know how many there were, sure, but it makes little sense that we'd detect them exactly by mere proximity either, and having only a number builds tension since you no longer have a clue as to their location. If this would require more than a simple edit, then it's something I'll request for the future.

 

ooooh...I've been down with removing radar blips of zombies since Alpha 8.

 

+1

 

 

/alt: Maybe make it a perception perk that enables the radar blips so the natural state is off unless you develop a sense for them...

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ooooh...I've been down with removing radar blips of zombies since Alpha 8.

 

+1

 

 

/alt: Maybe make it a perception perk that enables the radar blips so the natural state is off unless you develop a sense for them...

 

Very bad idea. Think of how frustrating it would be trying to find zombies and vultures in multi-storied/layered pois. Many times it's a flying vulture or a zombie that fell down a couple of stories that end up being the last kill. People would go insane.

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ooooh...I've been down with removing radar blips of zombies since Alpha 8.

 

+1

 

 

/alt: Maybe make it a perception perk that enables the radar blips so the natural state is off unless you develop a sense for them...

 

In addition to number remaining, yeah. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to wander blindly through large POIs looking for that last zombie to clear, finding it, only to find out it still wasn't the last one. Maybe another perception perk could introduce something similar to older Alphas, where the screen would brighten if you were detected while sneaking.

 

Very bad idea. Think of how frustrating it would be trying to find zombies and vultures in multi-storied/layered pois. Many times it's a flying vulture or a zombie that fell down a couple of stories that end up being the last kill. People would go insane.

 

So make it a trigger; sleeper zombies are always off the radar, but you can take a perk in Perception that lets you track active zombies from a certain distance away. It would have merit when traveling, as well. A zombie or vulture wouldn't leave their sleeper position without being woken up anyway, so that point would be moot. Meanwhile, being able to track them this way would end up no different than how it is now, and would encourage more specialization by making larger POI quests more difficult without adequate Perception without locking larger POIs out from non-Perception players entirely.

Edited by Endy Gainer (see edit history)

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Very bad idea. Think of how frustrating it would be trying to find zombies and vultures in multi-storied/layered pois. Many times it's a flying vulture or a zombie that fell down a couple of stories that end up being the last kill. People would go insane.

 

People without abilities often get frustrated. Think about how frustrated Liam Neeson would've been trying to save his daughter without his very particular set of skills. Get the training by spending the perk point and goodbye frustration due to your enhanced perception.

 

Honestly, these are the kinds of things that make for good perks rather than just a percentage bump to already existing abilities. Some might like the hunt and not get frustrated and so never spend the skillpoint. Others will spend it and then enjoy the enhanced senses for finding those last remaining zeds.

 

Very good idea. ;)

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People without abilities often get frustrated. Think about how frustrated Liam Neeson would've been trying to save his daughter without his very particular set of skills. Get the training by spending the perk point and goodbye frustration due to your enhanced perception.

 

Honestly, these are the kinds of things that make for good perks rather than just a percentage bump to already existing abilities. Some might like the hunt and not get frustrated and so never spend the skillpoint. Others will spend it and then enjoy the enhanced senses for finding those last remaining zeds.

 

Very good idea. ;)

 

There is lacking skill and then there is bad design. Tying an ability to quests that is a must have is pigeonholing. Have you done the top tier quests? Where you take on the biggest POIs, many with drop floors and hidden areas? I'm pretty sure the Fun Pimps designed the radar system like they did for a very good reason. I'm all for interesting perks but come on. Frustration should never be the default of a system.

 

Even with the radar it's sometimes incredibly difficult to locate that blip. Nothing worse than a vulture stuck under an awning.

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There is lacking skill and then there is bad design. Tying an ability to quests that is a must have is pigeonholing. Have you done the top tier quests? Where you take on the biggest POIs, many with drop floors and hidden areas? I'm pretty sure the Fun Pimps designed the radar system like they did for a very good reason. I'm all for interesting perks but come on. Frustration should never be the default of a system.

 

Even with the radar it's sometimes incredibly difficult to locate that blip. Nothing worse than a vulture stuck under an awning.

 

Same exact thing was said about the minimap with its radar blips before it was removed. People claimed the game would be unplayable without the sense it lent to the player.

 

I’m not saying I wouldn’t buy the perk. I’m sure I would long before I hit those top tier quests. What’s really going on is you don’t want another tough choice competing for your hard earned skillpoints. Making it a perk wouldn’t be denying it from the game. It just wouldn’t be a free gift from the start.

 

It could also be part of another benefit like the one that shrinks the radius for buried treasure so it isn’t such a specific narrow usecase.

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So make it a trigger; sleeper zombies are always off the radar, but you can take a perk in Perception that lets you track active zombies from a certain distance away. It would have merit when traveling, as well. A zombie or vulture wouldn't leave their sleeper position without being woken up anyway, so that point would be moot. Meanwhile, being able to track them this way would end up no different than how it is now, and would encourage more specialization by making larger POI quests more difficult without adequate Perception without locking larger POIs out from non-Perception players entirely.

 

Have you guys ever done the highest tier quests? They are hard enough without having to perk into something. They take sometimes 2 in game days to clear on default settings and wastes all your ammo fighting the hardest zombies. It's not like the radar thing is on 24/7 it's only for the clearing quests. At this point in time these quests aren't even worth the effort and you wan't to make them more frustrating?

 

I know it breaks immersion but with how the Pimps laid out the quests it's necessary.

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There is lacking skill and then there is bad design. Tying an ability to quests that is a must have is pigeonholing. Have you done the top tier quests? Where you take on the biggest POIs, many with drop floors and hidden areas? I'm pretty sure the Fun Pimps designed the radar system like they did for a very good reason. I'm all for interesting perks but come on. Frustration should never be the default of a system.

 

Even with the radar it's sometimes incredibly difficult to locate that blip. Nothing worse than a vulture stuck under an awning.

 

Except that it's not a must-have. Or are you saying you've never completely cleared out a POI without being on a clear quest where all the enemies are clearly marked for you? If we're talking about good and bad design, we have to separate ourselves from our own experiences and wants and look at it from a bird's eye view, and think about the most benefit for the most people. Maybe you think having clearly marked enemies is a must-have, but given you only have that during clear quests and we're not seeing a lot of complaining about that, I don't think that's a well thought-out opinion.

 

That said, it's still an opinion worth thinking about, which is why I addressed your concern about finding that one Zed that moves. The only ones that move are the ones you trigger yourself (or someone else with you), so the only scenario your specific frustration comes to play in is also taken care of by the same perk. It makes sense for the Perception tree, for immersion, and for a natural extension of the player's abilities. Do you have another concern? I can try and mold the concept further if need be.

 

It's also worth noting that the only quests that are affected by the radar in this way are Clear and Fetch/Clear quests, which represent only a fraction of quests. Even then, only rank 4 and rank 5 quests go to sufficiently large POIs to have this problem. If you're relying on quests enough for that, you'd already be specializing toward making them easier, wouldn't you? It makes sense that you'd spec some Perception, and as such, a perk that would help you sense nearby threats.

Edited by Endy Gainer (see edit history)

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you can build a castle by day 15 with concrete walls, electric fences and turrets and the problem here is that some of us ask to nerf food because the survival aspect is a joke and only lasts a few days?

 

Nothing can kill you with blue items.by day 30/35 you have a Jeep and thats It The Game ends. No reasons to explore..to have a bigger base.

i respect the arcade point of view but so many sistems rigth now are put in that way.

And yes. I play in dificult settins

 

Sorry for the inglish

 

Higher difficulty settings only bring you stronger and more resilient zombies and the gamestage rises faster.

 

Much more interesting for someone who prefers the early game are the XP and loot settings. Try setting the loot abundance to 25% and the XP multiplier to 25%. You could also turn off the airdrops. That should extend the early game.

 

I prefer like hotpoon the late game and the possibilities building offers me. I can have fun with it for a very long time e.g. by building a huge base which takes several weeks to build. I am also someone for whom not only the function is important but also the design.

 

I also don't need a reason for exploring. If I'm interested then I just do it. However, the fun in exploring is somewhat restricted by the smaller maps. That's why I do quests when I want a change from building.

 

What also makes the game more interesting is if you mostly do without firearms and try to clear the POIs as quietly as possible. I mainly used the club and the crossbow. With the sneak bonus I can also kill many radioactive zombies with a targeted head shot. Doing this as often as possible without a zombie waking up is also a challenge.

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For the zombie radar, I think the pity system would be the best solution.

 

So, by default, start with just the zombie count and no radar. If zombie count is less than 5, show the radar. If more than 5, and less than 10% (or more sensible figures), and no quest zombies have been killed in the last 2 minutes, show the pity radar.

 

This would add tension, and solve the missing zombies problem.

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Same exact thing was said about the minimap with its radar blips before it was removed. People claimed the game would be unplayable without the sense it lent to the player.

 

I’m not saying I wouldn’t buy the perk. I’m sure I would long before I hit those top tier quests. What’s really going on is you don’t want another tough choice competing for your hard earned skillpoints. Making it a perk wouldn’t be denying it from the game. It just wouldn’t be a free gift from the start.

 

It could also be part of another benefit like the one that shrinks the radius for buried treasure so it isn’t such a specific narrow usecase.

 

So I'd need to perk into something that only benefited a very specific quest type, the hardest quest type btw. I wish we didn't need blips but seeing how these quests, especially the highest tier ones play out, they are necessary. The first 3-4 tiers of these quests are nothing compared to the 5 tier.

 

If you wanted to redesign it I have it like this:

 

Heartbeat Perk: Level 1 - Can hear the heart beat of a nearby enemy at 15 second intervals, 6 meters away (audio cue)

Level 2 - 10 second intervals, 8 meters away (audio cue)

Level 3 - 5 second intervals, 10 meters away (audio and blip)

Level 4 - Can always hear the heart beat of the closes enemy at 12 meters (audio and blip)

Level 5 - Dealing damage to an enemy between their heart beat causes them to freeze in place for 4 seconds.

 

That would be for the rest of the game, not just quests. This is also assuming that the the Fun Pimps re-design these quests in such a way that it would be very intuitive to seek and destroy without frustration.

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Except that it's not a must-have. Or are you saying you've never completely cleared out a POI without being on a clear quest where all the enemies are clearly marked for you? If we're talking about good and bad design, we have to separate ourselves from our own experiences and wants and look at it from a bird's eye view, and think about the most benefit for the most people. Maybe you think having clearly marked enemies is a must-have, but given you only have that during clear quests and we're not seeing a lot of complaining about that, I don't think that's a well thought-out opinion.

 

That said, it's still an opinion worth thinking about, which is why I addressed your concern about finding that one Zed that moves. The only ones that move are the ones you trigger yourself (or someone else with you), so the only scenario your specific frustration comes to play in is also taken care of by the same perk. It makes sense for the Perception tree, for immersion, and for a natural extension of the player's abilities. Do you have another concern? I can try and mold the concept further if need be.

 

It's also worth noting that the only quests that are affected by the radar in this way are Clear and Fetch/Clear quests, which represent only a fraction of quests. Even then, only rank 4 and rank 5 quests go to sufficiently large POIs to have this problem. If you're relying on quests enough for that, you'd already be specializing toward making them easier, wouldn't you? It makes sense that you'd spec some Perception, and as such, a perk that would help you sense nearby threats.

 

Well with zombies getting stuck, falling off 20 story buildings, and vultures getting caught on objects I see it more as a fail safe (blip system). I'm thinking about the average joe who won't like scaling a skyscraper up and down researching every room they were in 5 times because a zombie that he woke fell down from a window ledge landed on a balcony and preceded to get stuck outside. Maybe the sound just isn't there yet but you can't really hear how far or from what direction their moans are coming from.

 

If I were gonna add perks I'd make them so I can use them the whole game, not for a specific quest. Perks already make quests easier by proxy.

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Have you guys ever done the highest tier quests? They are hard enough without having to perk into something. They take sometimes 2 in game days to clear on default settings and wastes all your ammo fighting the hardest zombies. It's not like the radar thing is on 24/7 it's only for the clearing quests. At this point in time these quests aren't even worth the effort and you wan't to make them more frustrating?

 

I know it breaks immersion but with how the Pimps laid out the quests it's necessary.

 

Yes, actually. My normal playstyle is stealth/quest/crafting. Since I'm always thorough, I never go after the satchel in Fetch or Salvage quests without first clearing out the POI for that juicy XP, and you don't get a radar for those. I simply rely on my instincts and recognizing the most likely places for sleepers to be hiding, as well as what places are likely to have vultures (by the by, neat thing I remembered; if a vulture flies too far away from the POI, it counts them as dead in regards to the quest). This perk wouldn't benefit me particularly, but it would benefit a lot of people who want that extra edge, and it's compelling from a game design standpoint since it lends itself greatly to quest-heavy playstyles. There's plenty of other high-end quests without radar blips, and nothings else in the game tracks zombies for you. By definition, that makes high level POI Clear quests specialized... so why wouldn't you specialize yourself if you rely on them so heavily?

 

Well with zombies getting stuck, falling off 20 story buildings, and vultures getting caught on objects I see it more as a fail safe (blip system). I'm thinking about the average joe who won't like scaling a skyscraper up and down researching every room they were in 5 times because a zombie that he woke fell down from a window ledge landed on a balcony and preceded to get stuck outside. Maybe the sound just isn't there yet but you can't really hear how far or from what direction their moans are coming from.

 

If I were gonna add perks I'd make them so I can use them the whole game, not for a specific quest. Perks already make quests easier by proxy.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, I may not have worded it properly, but where did I say this perk would only apply to quests? I gave quests as an example, not the end-all be-all. The idea is that it would function as a proximity, and be used in general. It would just be massively useful FOR questing. The Perception perk would still let you detect nearby threats in your general surroundings.

Edited by Endy Gainer (see edit history)

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Yes, actually. My normal playstyle is stealth/quest/crafting. Since I'm always thorough, I never go after the satchel in Fetch or Salvage quests without first clearing out the POI for that juicy XP, and you don't get a radar for those. I simply rely on my instincts and recognizing the most likely places for sleepers to be hiding, as well as what places are likely to have vultures (by the by, neat thing I remembered; if a vulture flies too far away from the POI, it counts them as dead in regards to the quest). This perk wouldn't benefit me particularly, but it would benefit a lot of people who want that extra edge, and it's compelling from a game design standpoint since it lends itself greatly to quest-heavy playstyles. There's plenty of other high-end quests without radar blips, and nothings else in the game tracks zombies for you. By definition, that makes high level POI Clear quests specialized... so why wouldn't you specialize yourself if you rely on them so heavily?

 

But you don't need to kill those zombies, clear quest you do.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, I may not have worded it properly, but where did I say this perk would only apply to quests? I gave quests as an example, not the end-all be-all. The idea is that it would function as a proximity, and be used in general. It would just be massively useful FOR questing. The Perception perk would still let you detect nearby threats in your general surroundings.

 

 

You didn't, that was in response to Roland. Trying to argue both of your ideas is getting me mixed up. They are the same but slightly different.

 

I might be arguing with myself at this point, don't know, too tired. I'll back at it after some sleep.

Edited by Odetta (see edit history)

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For the zombie radar, I think the pity system would be the best solution.

 

So, by default, start with just the zombie count and no radar. If zombie count is less than 5, show the radar. If more than 5, and less than 10% (or more sensible figures), and no quest zombies have been killed in the last 2 minutes, show the pity radar.

 

This would add tension, and solve the missing zombies problem.

 

That's a good idea. In fact, I only pay attention to the radar when I think that I have already cleared the whole POI and the quest is still not finished.

 

Also, don't forget that in the past some quests had bugs and the zombies were shown on the radar but there was nothing at this point. So you couldn't tell if it was a bug and report it or if you just can't find the remaining zombies without the radar.

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)

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But you don't need to kill those zombies, clear quest you do.

 

You don't need to do quests either. You can easily do without the quest rewards, it's not like that's the only way to level, get dukes, or get anything else. I feel like you're making this out to be a bigger deal than it is.

 

You didn't, that was in response to Roland. Trying to argue both of your ideas is getting me mixed up. They are the same but slightly different.

 

I might be arguing with myself at this point, don't know, too tired. I'll back at it after some sleep.

 

Ahh, I assume when your post quotes only me that everything in that post is directed at me. Thank you for clarifying. Get some good rest!

Edited by Endy Gainer (see edit history)

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We're trying to be responsible and I'm not seeing any negative reviews saying we ruined the building aspects to this game. Survival and core game loops need some serious balance yet for this game to reach its potential. I don't see food as ever being a huge problem but it should be an issue early game.

 

I do not see why food has to be so important at the beginning of the game and something you can forget a few days later.

At the beginning of the game there may be abundant hunting but the zombies are supposed to be eating the animals and should start to become scarce.

The same goes for the nests could be plentiful at first to help the player and then go scarce for not having an easy resource.

This would force you to migrate to agriculture. Which would be nice to have to protect and that will be spoiled if you do not collect it on time.

The system of global precipitation could play a factor of unpredictability that would cause crops from all over the world to be spoiled by certain conditions.

This would force the players to look for the scant hunt, pawn a kidney to a merchant or survive with the few cans of food.

All this with the optional spoilage would make players who already like the game like this would continue the same for them.

I do not pretend that food is something extremely complicated to collect, I just want it to be something that you can never neglect and that always has a value.

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Madmole, for new players, there is a modification that could be interesting. After playing with a dozen players who didn't know the game, I had to teach them each time that to know the function of an object, it was necessary to click on the object then on "recipes". Each time, they were surprised and could thus discover craft possibilities they didn't know or even imagine.

Would it be possible that each time you click on an item in the inventory, the possible recipes appear automatically ?

 

Cool idea (for new players), but for the people who knows how to play, it would be a little bothering. If you are looking at a recipe, and you want to heal or something, you'll have to search the previous recipe again.

 

I'm not sure I was very clear, so here is a short video of what we would see :

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For the brass issue, yeah, lot of work to have individual casings flying about. (would be cool looking though)

 

However, just have a brass catcher mod for the weapon... now you have to make a choice. recover the brass, or use something else.

 

No catcher mod, you don't get your br-ass back, and have to get off your ass and find more.

 

:D

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I do not see why food has to be so important at the beginning of the game and something you can forget a few days later.

 

Because priorities change over time. If you had to think all the time about food, you couldn't think about building a good defense against the horde. In the weeks after the first horde, you'll have to build up your defenses and develop strategies to deal with the horde as it grows stronger and stronger.

 

You also want to explore the environment and improve your own equipment.

 

At the beginning of the game there may be abundant hunting but the zombies are supposed to be eating the animals and should start to become scarce.

 

That would be illogical. The zombies weren't created when your character woke up, they were there before.

 

In addition, most zombies are too slow to become dangerous to the animal anyway, and it's also the case that some more aggressive animals would actively fight the zombies and not just let themselves be eaten.

 

The same goes for the nests could be plentiful at first to help the player and then go scarce for not having an easy resource.

 

That will hardly be possible. The nests will be generated when the world is created and not when the player is ready to enter. You could of course reduce the number of eggs a player finds the higher the gamestage is.

 

This would force you to migrate to agriculture.

 

Agriculture is not equally suitable for every playing style. Especially nomads have little interest in it.

 

Which would be nice to have to protect and that will be spoiled if you do not collect it on time.

 

That would be a big problem on multiplayer servers. There the time continues to run even if the player is not logged in.

 

The possibility for animals and zombies to trample down plants was already promised for A19 or later. From this point on it is necessary to protect the garden.

 

The system of global precipitation could play a factor of unpredictability that would cause crops from all over the world to be spoiled by certain conditions. This would force the players to look for the scant hunt, pawn a kidney to a merchant or survive with the few cans of food.

 

If you're not completely stupid, you're naturally stockpiling to be prepared. But that is exactly what is criticized. It is criticized that the player has the possibility to build up supplies and then no longer has to search every kitchen cupboard for food.

 

All this with the optional spoilage would make players who already like the game like this would continue the same for them.

 

That's not said. The game has many aspects and individual players are more interested in some aspects than in others.

Your interest is clearly in the survival aspect. I am more interested in building and mining. Others are more interested in scavenging.

 

I do not pretend that food is something extremely complicated to collect, I just want it to be something that you can never neglect and that always has a value.

 

This is the wrong game for that. Here the zombies clearly play the leading role.

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However, just have a brass catcher mod for the weapon... now you have to make a choice. recover the brass, or use something else.

 

No catcher mod, you don't get your br-ass back, and have to get off your ass and find more.

 

We've had steel ammunition since A17. It causes fewer damage and the degeneration is higher but it works and you don't need brass to make it. So it's rather the decision if I install the mod or if I use steel ammunition when I run out of brass.

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People without abilities often get frustrated. Think about how frustrated Liam Neeson would've been trying to save his daughter without his very particular set of skills. Get the training by spending the perk point and goodbye frustration due to your enhanced perception.

 

Honestly, these are the kinds of things that make for good perks rather than just a percentage bump to already existing abilities. Some might like the hunt and not get frustrated and so never spend the skillpoint. Others will spend it and then enjoy the enhanced senses for finding those last remaining zeds.

 

Very good idea. ;)

 

There is the possibility that only the direction to ONE zombie is shown on the radar. As long as there are multiple zombies around you don't get reliable information from it, but it will always be helping you to find the last one.

 

A perk is a bad solution. Many players will not buy the perk except when they need it for that last zombie, but then they usually have no perk point left. And after you bought it you can't undo that even if you don't want it generally.

 

No, this is a task for either an option you can disable or enable temporarily or permanently from inside the game or an in-game one-use item, i.e. it could be a side-effect of one of the drugs in the game (preferably one you would often bring along with you).

 

 

 

The possibility for animals and zombies to trample down plants was already promised for A19 or later. From this point on it is necessary to protect the garden.

 

Meep Meep PROMISE-ALARM Meep Meep. Someone mentioned the p-word. :smile-new:

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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The game already has "hunger" - it just becomes mostly decorative after a while and sure, you may like that and that's perfectly ok.

 

But saying that the game will become a "simulated life experience" or will somehow lose its "freedom" and "fun", if it gets a hint of balance which won't allow players to swim in resources, is a little ridiculous, don't you think?

 

No I don't think so, but clearly you do. That's ok though, we don't need to agree. You and I play the game for different reasons.

Edited by hotpoon (see edit history)

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you can build a castle by day 15 with concrete walls, electric fences and turrets and the problem here is that some of us ask to nerf food because the survival aspect is a joke and only lasts a few days?

Nothing can kill you with blue items.by day 30/35 you have a Jeep and thats It The Game ends. No reasons to explore..to have a bigger base.

i respect the arcade point of view but so many sistems rigth now are put in that way.

And yes. I play in dificult settins

 

Sorry for the inglish

 

Your English is fine.

Making food harder to get, does nothing nothing for end game. End game content (difficult biomes with boss zombies that drop legendary gear) is what would finish off the game, in my opinion. I'd rather have something to look forward to than knowing that mundane, trivial tasks are going to become more of an issue.

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