About the food system

[skullpoker]

Eat canned food: Possible food poison in spite of no differentiation between canned/collapsed canned food...

Eat freshly cooked meat: same no matter what kind

Eat ♥♥♥♥: change your name to Roland and make your opinion moot.

[Roland]

It's not that I wouldn't like differentiation of food and more than a few recipes being useful. That would be great. But you described it perfectly - doing it this way, would feel like having potions. And imagine how players will carry potions for different situations every time in their inventory, not paying much attention to whether they are hungry or not, but frantically chugging them according to the actions they are making. If bonuses are strong enough, the availability of food can even determine the actions they will be doing in some situations.

 

The reason most people don't bother to take more perks than M.Chef lvl 1 in the first place, is because of its cost/effectiveness. Cost or availability is AAA - even at 25% loot, you find enough eggs on the ground (nest every 3m) to feed more than one person and meat is not an issue most of the time - as long as you find an animal you will get plenty of it. Not much of a reason for someone to invest at producing food to make recipes. If we had spoilage in the game right now and everything was balanced around it, things would be drastically different. Eggs spoiling fast for example, would make bacon and eggs too time consuming, as you would have to continuously gather fresh eggs.

 

 

As for long-term effects, a variety of meals is more akin to proper nutrition:

 

They could add a hidden counter that will be increasing with high quality food, diminishing with time, adding a buff every time the hidden counter exceeds a threshold with a minimum duration. Like a mini-wellness "well fed" effect which can appear with weeks of highQ nutrition and can be sustained permanently. The counter could also increase ONLY when the player eats a variety of nutrients (food consumed should be different than the last one or two meals). Obviously, there have to be ways for the player to not be able to abuse the counter. Players will intrinsically know that if they want to be "well-fed", they will keep having to eat different high quality meals each day for some time, without having to track anything other than "what they ate yesterday" (even if they don't remember or track that, as long as their meal is HQ, the counter can remain stable instead of diminishing, making the counter a sure thing eventually, with HQ, sometimes varied, nutrition).

 

I’m on board for general nutrition and wellness via eating a variety of good foods. I just also think food potions can be done in a way that is fun as well. So what if people fill their inventory slots to have the right food ready for the right situation? That’s their choice.

 

Food spoilage

Long term wellness through the food pyramid.

Short term potion effects from different meals.

 

Yes to all three.

[ktr]

Food Spoilage is a mixed bag for me. I can see the appeal in a survival game. It also seems like a micro-management mini game in the same spirit as gun parts. I never consider cleaning out my fridge and deciding what needs to be cooked and eaten now or its going to go bad a good time and I don't think I'd like it any better in a game.

 

Especially, in multiplayer. I'd give it a shot, but the forecast for enjoying it is nebulous.

 

Food, though is prevalent in SP and not particularly difficult (though it can be more challenging) in MP. Would lowering the prevalence of food instead of adding spoilage address the issue?

[Roland]

. I never consider cleaning out my fridge...

 

Exactly. Thanks to your fridge you don’t have to and that would be the same in the game. A food spoilage feature usually includes food preservation solutions as well so that once you progress to the tech you no longer have to worry about it.

[Damocles]

A potential implementation problem: Food spoilage: item-stacking.

 

As a per-item food spoilage would require using a separate slot for each food-item, the game could simplify it, and use the average "lasting-timer" when combining food of the same type into the stack.

 

So if one egg has 50/100 time-units left, and the other egg 30/100, then the stacked eggs after combining have each 40/100 time units left.

This is not realistic, but would allow stacking items with different remaining spoilage times.

 

---

 

If the food spoils at lets say 1 unit per minute, then putting it into a cooler-box would make it loose only 0.25 units per minute, in a powered fridge even less.

 

It would loose nothing when canned or frozen, but then loose certain benefits.

 

The player is only allowed to eat a certain amount of feed when hungry, so eating lower quality food would compeete with higher quality food.

[Khulkhuum]

I think Ark done a pretty decent job for food spoilage.

 

You can stack the same types of food like meat, berries, cooked food, etc. but when the timer hits one item from the stack changes into spoiled. This should go in pair with what Damocles said, adding new items to the stack would add or decrease based on averages of both stacks put together. Sure we could argue that after the timer hits 0 the whole stack should go rotten, not only a single item, but the same could be said about how fast a stack of meat would be inedible.

[RipClaw]

I think Ark done a pretty decent job for food spoilage.

 

In Ark spoilage is even a desirable property since you need the spoiled meat for the manufacture of narcotics.

I'd wish for the same for 7 Days to die. Food shouldn't just spoil so you have to throw it away but you should be able to use it to make other things. That would give the whole thing more meaning.

[Auner]

In Ark spoilage is even a desirable property since you need the spoiled meat for the manufacture of narcotics.

I'd wish for the same for 7 Days to die. Food shouldn't just spoil so you have to throw it away but you should be able to use it to make other things. That would give the whole thing more meaning.

Agreed! IF spoilage was added, food should spoil “into” something and not just disappear. Whether it’s Rotten Flesh, Moldy Bread, or something new like Rotten Mush (Compost).

I think Ark’s system would be easy to code into 7DtD (when the timer runs out, you lose one item from the stack - easy). This doesn’t make it stupidly annoying, but something to consider, and I’d expect different foods to last different amounts of time. Very complicated foods with salts or other preservatives, or simple foods like twinkies, would last longer than raw meats or basic cooked meat. This would take some appeal from Bacon & Eggs as the only thing to make. It would also encourage using the meat when you get it, and not stockpiling 500 Raw Meat until you finally find a damn grill.

[RestInPieces]

Spoilage alone can make 1/2 of the food perks useful again. It would give value to food gathering/production activities and would be one of the best incentives to have electricity as the QOL upgrade will be great. Spoilage is our Lord and Savior! Don't want to see M60s in the diary, want to see something meaningful for the gameplay :'(

 

It also seems like a micro-management mini game in the same spirit as gun parts. I never consider cleaning out my fridge and deciding what needs to be cooked and eaten now or its going to go bad a good time and I don't think I'd like it any better in a game.

True, but intuitive UI, like a quick-sort, a small bar, etc, can minimize that micromanagement. Imo food spoilage will offer so much to the game that it will be ten times worth it.

 

So what if people fill their inventory slots to have the right food ready for the right situation? That’s their choice.

 

Because devs must prevent players from annoying themselves with extra item management for a few lousy (but optimal) buffs

 

If the food spoils at lets say 1 unit per minute, then putting it into a cooler-box would make it loose only 0.25 units per minute, in a powered fridge even less.

 

Imo cooler boxes shouldn't prevent spoilage. One of the best parts of spoilage, is giving electricity a big QOL upgrade. Would be much less if something such as cooler boxes mitigated spoilage. I know it does make sense for cooler boxes to do that but...

 

It would loose nothing when canned

 

Yeah, canned food and can recipes will have a reason for existence.

 

I think Ark done a pretty decent job for food spoilage.

 

Yeah, don't think stacking is an issue, many games with spoilage handle it well.

 

In Ark spoilage is even a desirable property since you need the spoiled meat for the manufacture of narcotics.

I'd wish for the same for 7 Days to die. Food shouldn't just spoil so you have to throw it away but you should be able to use it to make other things. That would give the whole thing more meaning.

 

Agree that spoiled food could be used at something - it shouldn't be too valuable though because spoiled food will be plentiful.

 

It would also encourage using the meat when you get it, and not stockpiling 500 Raw Meat until you finally find a damn grill.

 

Yep! Same with eggs and everything else. The more recipes the more versatile someone will be.

[Khulkhuum]

Not only you would be able to reinvent the wheel (so to speak) concerning the foods themselves, but also many appliances.

 

Fridges and coolers could be far more functional and have a more advanced UI. The current temperature - slowly changing when it persists without electricity or the cooling agent slowly declining (like snow, ice, etc., but can be even a new item) - which would show if electricity was plugged, etc.

 

Additionally, food would not spoil (or do it slower) when you travel through snow biome (general temperature affecting spoilage). I think the main problem here would be a framework to check all of the containers in the players chunk (or upon opening a container) to see if anything spoiled.

[eXSe]

I’m on board for general nutrition and wellness via eating a variety of good foods. I just also think food potions can be done in a way that is fun as well. So what if people fill their inventory slots to have the right food ready for the right situation? That’s their choice.

 

Food spoilage

Long term wellness through the food pyramid.

Short term potion effects from different meals.

 

Yes to all three.

 

I'd be down with that

[Roland]

Because devs must prevent players from annoying themselves with extra item management for a few lousy (but optimal) buffs

 

I'd believe you were being facetious if I wasn't so well read in your posts. We just will always disagree on the level of puppet mastery the devs should employ to guide players into doing (or not doing) certain things that may lead them to possibly not having fun because of the choices those players made that were possible but not mandatory because the devs kept things open ended.

 

 

Imo cooler boxes shouldn't prevent spoilage.

 

Agreed. But he didn't say prevent it he said reduce it and I think using a cooler as early game way to mitigate spoilage a bit is fine. Salt could also be used as something to extend the life of meat but not prevent spoilage altogether.

 

One of the best parts of spoilage, is giving electricity a big QOL upgrade. Would be much less if something such as cooler boxes mitigated spoilage. I know it does make sense for cooler boxes to do that but...

 

....but nothing. Cooler boxes should be able to help to a degree that raises the QOL a little from having no preservation. Playing with zero preservation techniques from the start until electricity would be too long a time to suffer and even if intermediate solutions like coolers and salt were used they wouldn't diminish the awesome tech of a fridge connected to electricity. I'd even say that if someone wanted to store their stuff in regular crates in the snow biome, that should almost be on par with an electric fridge so that there is that alternative for those who don't want to get into the electricity part of the game.

[HungryZombie]

I'd believe you were being facetious if I wasn't so well read in your posts. We just will always disagree on the level of puppet mastery the devs should employ to guide players into doing (or not doing) certain things that may lead them to possibly not having fun because of the choices those players made that were possible but not mandatory because the devs kept things open ended.

 

 

 

 

Agreed. But he didn't say prevent it he said reduce it and I think using a cooler as early game way to mitigate spoilage a bit is fine. Salt could also be used as something to extend the life of meat but not prevent spoilage altogether.

 

 

 

....but nothing. Cooler boxes should be able to help to a degree that raises the QOL a little from having no preservation. Playing with zero preservation techniques from the start until electricity would be too long a time to suffer and even if intermediate solutions like coolers and salt were used they wouldn't diminish the awesome tech of a fridge connected to electricity. I'd even say that if someone wanted to store their stuff in regular crates in the snow biome, that should almost be on par with an electric fridge so that there is that alternative for those who don't want to get into the electricity part of the game.

 

That's pretty interesting if they could pull off the crate in the snow thing. Would make a Snow Biome fort a cool option.

[RipClaw]

Additionally, food would not spoil (or do it slower) when you travel through snow biome (general temperature affecting spoilage). I think the main problem here would be a framework to check all of the containers in the players chunk (or upon opening a container) to see if anything spoiled.

 

I immediately think of Siberia and how there in storage compartments in the ground food are stored because the permafrost ground acts like a refrigerator.

 

Or you could use an icebox as a model. These were not electrically operated but an ice block cooled the food.

[Damocles]

There could be some "pre powered fridge" options:

 

-items stashed in common storage-chest (shade) spoil a bit slower than when carried around.

-items stored in a storage chest in the snow biome (will spoil slower) -> would give the player a reason to travel to a nearby snow biome

-any cooked meats/eggs spoil slower than raw products

-makeshift cooler (cooler-box + mixing salt and water)

-pickling vegetables (glass, + maybe salt or vinegar)

-preserving cooked meat in a glass jar or can (spoil slow, but are a low quality food)

-salting meat

-smoking meat / drying meat

 

The ultimate goal for the player would be to have a powered fridge, that can either cool (high quality foods) or freeze (lower quality foods / no spoilage). And maintaining a larger farm - where the best foods would require vegetables from the farm, but also fresh meat from hunting.

 

The would be then 3 main strategies:

 

-make everlasting canned/preserved food, without spoilage (no perks) -> convenient choice for longer trips

-make food fresh "on the run" by hunting/gathering (spoils fast, good perks)

-make the the best food by doing hunting trips, cooling the meats, picking fresh vegetables from the farm, and cooking meals on a proper stove (spoil slow in the fridge, best perks, but spoiling fast when travelling) -> best choice when staying in the base

[Lanadon Conners]

I would rather see the Devs devote time and resources to more types of food like fish, chicken, vegetables and the means to harvest them than deep dive into a "Spoilage" system. There is so much else they can improve upon "IMHO" than the concept of "Spoilage".

 

The impact on Quality of Life that refrigeration brought to civilization is not debatable and in a game like 7Days, should impact players with the same influence that gaining your first vehicle. Gathering food on a daily basis would no longer be a matter of Survival and give the players time to invest in other improvements.

[RyanX]

Find spoilage SOUNDS like a great idea, EXCEPT when you talk about multiplayer servers. My wife and I play on the weekends, so I don't want to go back to our MP server after 4 or 5 days to find all my food spoiled. The only fix to that would be for the game to know what food was yours and turn off spoilage when you are logged out.

[Khulkhuum]

Found fridges should be off, as electricity is hardly available so long after the apocalypse. Or it will be available for some time until it gets cut off (like in project zomboid). This way it gives incentive to find food quickly, as it will spoil in some time, making mid to end game food acquisition harder.

 

I think the most important thing for TFP would be to implement optional variables for items and possibilities to work on their values - update on intervals, initiate something on values, etc. This would allow modding or implementing into vanilla not only food spoilage, but also many other things.

[Lanadon Conners]

Project Zomboid is "THE" game that got me interested in Zombie Survival games and I still play it on occasion.

 

If TFP could manage to pull some of the "Scavenge" variety /workings from Zomboid and the NPC systems from State of Decay and make it all work with the RWG, this game would be a hit IMHO.

[Damocles]

About finding food:

Realistically the player would only find canned/preserved eatable foods that long after an apocalypse.

Fresh food is always there in the form of plants (farm) and animals.

 

A special locked (player-bound) cooler-box in MP could preserve any foods when logged off without electricity.

Food can only be placed and removed by the player who placed it. (this could still be exploited, unless the food is bound to that player too)

[RipClaw]

The problem of finding food in the late game is something that specifically affects players who prefer a nomadic playstyle as they usually don't have a garden.

 

Food that is specifically tied to one player would be a problem on cooperative multiplayer servers. Here often a single group member takes over the role of the cook and takes care of the garden.

[Khulkhuum]

Like i mentioned, having a framework for managing item variables (in this example every food item would have something like durability and spoilage speed) it would be easy to make a modlet adding a no-spoilage, lockable container. This could be used in both MP and SP, allowing to put things inside and their expiration date not moving a single digit.

[Catt]

I think it'd be cool to have a nutrition system. Certain foods give certIan nutriants, like carbs, vitamins, sugars, etc. Gotta eat things from certain food groups like grains, fruits, meat, etc and having adequate levels of each will provide bonuses or stave off illness etc

[hotpoon]

Agreed. But he didn't say prevent it he said reduce it and I think using a cooler as early game way to mitigate spoilage a bit is fine. Salt could also be used as something to extend the life of meat but not prevent spoilage altogether.

 

....but nothing. Cooler boxes should be able to help to a degree that raises the QOL a little from having no preservation. Playing with zero preservation techniques from the start until electricity would be too long a time to suffer and even if intermediate solutions like coolers and salt were used they wouldn't diminish the awesome tech of a fridge connected to electricity. I'd even say that if someone wanted to store their stuff in regular crates in the snow biome, that should almost be on par with an electric fridge so that there is that alternative for those who don't want to get into the electricity part of the game.

 

I agree re the coolerbox, snowbiomes, and salt, but also, I think drying meat easily should be an option for nomadic play style. In Conan Exiles you can make an inexpensive drying rack fairly easily. If they added this, then as a nomadic player, you could set up a drying rack when you stop for the night, and by morning you have yourself biltong or jerky (whatever you want to call it) and can continue with the trip.

 

Also, as I've harped on about before, canned food should not give you food poisoning. In reality potentially undercooking a pig over the fire in the wilderness (unsanitary conditions) is way more risky than cracking open a can of beans.

[Damocles]

I actually liked the wellness system in that regard.

Low quality food lowers some wellness stat, (by a margin)

Normal quality food keeps it.

High quality food raises it (up to a certain point)

Death lowers it to the lowest level.

 

The impact of the wellness stat does not need to be substantial. It could be like affecting the top 20% of the endurance.

But its a long term reward to keep it up by pocuring good food (farming, hunting, fridge) and raise the wellness / keep it at top level.

 

As food has fullness, there is always only so much food the player can eat during the day.

 

Bonus: wellness only raises if you eat a type of food you did not eat this day (or 48 hours) before.

-> this keep the player from only preparing the same kind of food in bulk, but try to create a variety.

With food spoilage this would require a long term strategy to optimize farming, hunting and preserving.

 

-> and planning in a beer for the evening.