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A suggestion to fix the economy: NO MORE DUKES


Psychodabble

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It's not a system that completely sorts itself, but the massive advantage it has over the existing Duke system or a theoretical credit system is a natural sink of escalating strength. As gamestage goes up you encounter more and tougher zombies requiring you to expend more and more ammo.

 

Your ammo system is practically equivalent to the current system with the trader having unlimited ammo in stock. The natural sink, i.e. the zombies already exist. We already buy up all the ammo the trader has.

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Right. And if what we have now was all we were ever gonna have I would be there with you. But you are putting a lot of thought and criticism on a partly-done system. Tier 5 quests are done but the legendary loot that will be the reward is still not in the game.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't critique but there is a very good reason the bullet points aren't working together cohesively yet. It's the other as of yet missing bullet points you aren't considering.

 

Dukes are the enforced currency by the Duke but the Duke and his casino are not in the game yet.

 

There are tier 5 quests but their intended rewards are not in the game yet.

 

Bandits and the Duke himself are the most dangerous threats in the game but they are not yet implemented.

 

If you could at least acknowledge the missing parts when discussing the current status then it gives a better idea of the whole picture. I believe that the casino tokens will be useful as currency and also fit in with the lore of the game. I believe that there will be loot worth doing a tier 5 quest to obtain and that you probably won't want to sell it but use it to help you survive against the bandit incursions into your world beyond what the zombies can do now.

 

I can tell you for a certainty that the reason there are so many threads complaining about partially done systems is because their authors are treating them as if they are the final intended versions. Some are even saying that the devs shouldn't release anything until its complete-- in an early access game!

 

That's fine, but where is the sink? With Dukes, every player eventually hits a point where there simply are no more sinks...nothing to spend their money on. The ammo as currency idea solves this problem as there are always more zombies to shoot and their numbers will always continue to rise as gamestage increases.

 

I don't see how the addition of legendary loot changes this situation. Even if that loot is available for purchase at extremely high prices, it doesn't eliminate the problem, only delay it until the player has bought or otherwise acquired all the legendary loot. Then we are right back where we started...with piles of useless Dukes.

 

If I understand what you're saying about the casino, there will also be some kind of gambling as an option, but that doesn't solve the problem either. After all, what are we gambling for? What's the reward? More useless Dukes? More legendary items that we already have?

 

The reason that this problem has become so severe and engendered so many complaints is the unlimited repair possibility introduced in A17. Items have become completely static elements of the economy instead of dynamic drivers. Maybe you and the devs don't like the ammo as currency idea, but something has to change to avoid this inevitable economic death.

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Afaik they do want to find a good way to make repair meaningful again - they wouldn't possibly leave it like that.

 

Okay, I don't read the dev diary thread regularly, so maybe I'm just uninformed. What's the plan?

 

Whatever it is, it's pretty counterintuitive because this particular problem didn't exist in A16. The old system used items as a dynamic sink for Dukes and/or resources as you had to constantly invest in keeping your pink quality tools/weapons pink. Now it's one and done, so it's hard to see why the change was made if there was any thought being given to the role of repair in the overall economy.

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Okay, I don't read the dev diary thread regularly, so maybe I'm just uninformed. What's the plan?

 

Whatever it is, it's pretty counterintuitive because this particular problem didn't exist in A16. The old system used items as a dynamic sink for Dukes and/or resources as you had to constantly invest in keeping your pink quality tools/weapons pink. Now it's one and done, so it's hard to see why the change was made if there was any thought being given to the role of repair in the overall economy.

 

I almost never read that abomination of a thread, but I remember Roland saying something about repair possibly changing in the future when A17ex was launched.

 

I agree that repair should have downsides, however I don't think lowered quality should be one of them with this new system. I also wouldn't like its max durability to be lowered on repair. I would find both of these annoying. I'd prefer something like - a chance for the item to be completely scrapped instead of repaired. Repair perks would lower that chance, but never lower than, say, 20%. Straightforward, no inventory management and annoyingly low durability or sub-par quality items I would just scrap anyway. Expect people to riot if it happens, because they are used to the current repair, as usual.

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So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.

Mmm hmm. But if currency/trading are turned into an integral part of the game then it becomes a different game where you cannot proceed without traders.

 

Right now you have the option to head out into the great unknown and never set foot inside a trader's compound.

 

Tying it into a "cohesive experience" would make this much easier because you would be required to constantly spend dukes to survive.

Pretty much like the item shop at the end of a round in [insert game].

 

You also could not be allowed to generate value just out of the blue, like by crafting or looting and selling items. For a proper balance only certain rewards that the trader gives you, such as quest rewards, could be legal tender.

That would be totally doable and a lot easier to do but... who wants to play that game?

 

I'm not making this up, BTW. In an MMO you would grind your quest/hero/raid/valor/etc points and spend them on the trader that is local to this content only.

That makes it a completely encapsulated economy and easy to balance.

 

No matter how cool it sounds, using bullets as currency or having dukes scrap to brass solves nothing. The currency item is not an issue at all.

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yup... on my personal play games of 7dtd (when not testing), i do not and will not use or talk to any traders.... i play nomad on sp only and i dont need money nor traders. i just go about the country side killing zombies and just finding enough food to eat and take my time doing it. the bad thing about my style is.... i enjoy it and each new game i choose something a little different to do so i am never bored.

 

so you are correct gazz.... the traders are not the core of the game... the actual core of the game is a player's imagination. but we dont all play the same way and that is proven fact... :)

 

i know some will not agree with my opinion but its mine and no one can change how i do things my way and i damn sure am not telling others how to play. :)

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The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.

 

Interesting, so we may be able to smelt Dukes for brass in the future?

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The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.

 

Well that at least makes sense. If this design/bug is changed/fixed, that goes a nice step toward fixing the problem.

 

I still wonder though, why the abstraction? What is the actual gameplay purpose of having a separate item that is used as currency that is only considered valuable because you can make ammo with it? If ammo is the source of the value, it seems silly introducing this "middle man" item.

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Well that at least makes sense. If this design/bug is changed/fixed, that goes a nice step toward fixing the problem.

 

I still wonder though, why the abstraction? What is the actual gameplay purpose of having a separate item that is used as currency that is only considered valuable because you can make ammo with it? If ammo is the source of the value, it seems silly introducing this "middle man" item.

 

It has been hinted at that Dukes, Dukes Casino, and The Duke himself will be part of the storyline.

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The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.

 

I think you need to get Gazz in a room and sit him down and have nice friendly conversation with him. Shirtless. Directly after gym time.

 

:D

 

I think he has gone rogue on you.

 

Those Dukes are 100 percent useless to people like me who choose not to use traders. I toss em on the floor.

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The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.

 

Interesting, so we may be able to smelt Dukes for brass in the future?

 

 

If Madmole allows us to get that nice change in Barter (in order to sell more of the same item) and smelting dukes = brass, that would be awesome because I could stop save so much ammo for horde nights and looting POI's would be doable at a high gamestage (for me, at least).

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The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.

 

That's why I'm thinking we should get back the bullet cases when using the magnum gun. It's a revolver which does not spit out the casing when fired.

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If making ammo is harder than what is the point v dukes? You are just fudging another number. Big deal.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Talk about an actual dynamic system then maybe it will be original. Right now you may as well throw out everything and just use paper. LMFAO

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This post might get a lot of hate, but I think it's really the only way to fix this constant back and forth of economy imbalance. TFP can tweak values all they want, but they'll never satisfy everyone because traders have such a major impact on the game.

 

The way out might be considered radical by some, but it's actually very simple: get rid of Dukes entirely.

 

1) A fiat currency in a post-apocalyptic setting is ridiculous in the first place. The old cash is worthless, but casino tokens have real value?! C'mon, that can't make any kind of sense to anybody. Caps make no sense in Fallout and Dukes make no sense here. At least the old cash can be burned to keep warm...

 

2) Sinks for Dukes are completely arbitrary/artificial. It's impossible to balance an economy that's entirely based on RNG. There are very few things in the game that a player can't perk up to supply for themselves through crafting and of the remaining things, players need to either depend on RNG or perk up just to have some way to spend all this useless money. There is literally no other way of taking money out of the economy.

 

3) Dukes make economy balancing for single vs. multiplayer impossible. If Dukes and traders are balanced to make a trade-centric playstyle viable for single players, they become dramatically overpowered in multiplayer and the opposite problem as well.

 

So what do we use as currency instead of Dukes? Easy answer...what has real value among post-apocalypitc traders? What are all the players clamoring for more of? AMMO!

 

We set up a hierarchy of ammo value that directly correlates to the resources/difficulty involved in crafting each ammo type. For example: 1 shell of 7.62 = 5 bullets .44 magnum = 10 bullets 9mm = 25 shotgun shells. Again, these numbers are only examples off the top of my head. Some real thought would have to go into the recipes and crafting stations needed for each ammo type and their corresponding value. We could also get the more valuable archery arrows/bolts in there somewhere, too.

 

The traders would offer items for sale in ammo prices and would also offer ammo exchanges at rates favorable to themselves. Traders would buy items in exchange for the ammo of the player's choice, but the best value would be in the "worst" ammunition. The same goes for quest rewards.

 

This would also be a balancing mechanism for the relative strengths of the various guns...sure the sniper rifle and AK are great, but 7.62 is the most valuable ammo, so it might incentivize more players to use the SMG or Magnum. A player might even choose to use the Blunderbuss so they can use all of their ammo for purchasing. It would also be important to give traders some price variance to incentivize a real trader playstyle, i.e. buying an item cheaply at one trader and selling it for a profit at another.

 

Gone would be the problem of players sitting on mountains of currency with nothing to use it for. Gone would be the complaints about not having a reason to explore POIs at high level. Even if the loot you find is useless to you, it sells for ammo!

 

Maybe TFP have some future plans to make Dukes advantageous, but I can't imagine what it would be and I certainly haven't heard anything about it. What is clear to me is that Dukes do not work very well as currently implemented. I think using ammo as currency is superior in every way.

 

What exactly stops players from simply making ammo? I mean the second people start doing that the whole economy would fall apart. Ammo would lose it’s value because of a serious influx of people making it to gain money. Inflation throws a wrench in your currency plan, and I really don’t see a way around it. This game does have more, and in the real world a currency based around something that can be EASILY made and mass produced is bound to fail. The reason why currencies like bottle caps and Duke’s Casino Tokens are used in these kinds of settings is because there is no risk of inflation. There is no way anyone is going to be able to mass produce a bunch of old casino tokens, and there is enough of them to effectively make a currency out of them. There’s also the fact tokens as a currency will never devalue, there is no new money coming in meaning a casino token will always be worth what it currently is. This also allows individual items to maintain a common price tag. Your proposed currency doesn’t allow for that. Let’s say, for example, a couple hundred survivors head over to their local Trader Joe’s and purchase a rocket launcher for 500 7.62 bullets a piece (For the record, they crafted this ammo, they didn’t find or trade for it). More and more of these survivors keep purchasing these rocket launchers, causing Joe to jack up the price to 3000 7.62 bullets. While a price increase initially looks promising for would be traders, in actuality your currency system is devaluing. Of course, the survivors keep purchasing these rocket launchers, even at the new price, this cycle continues until soon Joe and everyone else is swimming in bullets. Once again your currency would fail due to inflation. Let’s look at this scenario again with Duke’s Casino tokens, 100 survivors buy rocket launchers from Joe for 500 Duke’s a piece and that’s it. Joe now has a large amount of casino tokens which still have value, the survivors can’t go home and make more tokens meaning they can’t purchase more rocket launchers. Thus Joe has no need to raise the price and there isn’t an influx of a form of currency (Joe also becomes filthy rich in the process).

 

Anyways, to make a long story short your currency wouldn’t hold up in the real world and I highly doubt the devs would actually use it due to that fact. Also if you implemented this as a currency form then you would most likely have to remove the option to craft ammo, which is something I doubt many people would be happy about.

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I think you need to get Gazz in a room and sit him down and have nice friendly conversation with him. Shirtless. Directly after gym time.

 

:D

 

I think he has gone rogue on you.

 

It does seem that Gazz has a different vision of the game. :)

 

 

"Dukes", named after the leader of the bad(?) faction, underlines how badass The Duke really is. Is he a behemoth? There's a plot for you.

 

But Dukes back to brass would be amazing! Lower the price and cost of items considerably though so you're not floating in ammo. I like the constant tactical choices you have to make with ammo.

 

For late game (Gamesstage 500+), ammo determines what a player can do, unless he went "all in" melee.

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