A suggestion to fix the economy: NO MORE DUKES

[theFlu]

- cause you never know when you'll lose your backpack to a glitch

- when your motorcycle stops responding to you and you can't use it anymore

 

so tons of sinks already exist.

The actual sinks you mention are .. bugs. To become economical sinks, the motorcycles would have to break by design, roughly every two miles, with the 17.1 economy

[playlessNamer]

I believe the one and ONLY problem with economy is that economical aka barter and quest rewards perks and both locked together with all crafting perks.

 

These two should be completely separate, so you can either craft stuff, or get it from traders at better cost efficiency, both locked behind int will only keep creating problems and "rebalances" that screw up every single player but the one focused fully on int.

 

 

good point!

[RipClaw]

In 17.1 in my long term game (less than 49 days) i had 502 000 Coins on stock after buying EVERYTHING i wanted

 

This number alone says nothing without context. The question is how did you get this amount of coins ?

 

How many traders do you know and use ?

How often do you visit the trader(s) ?

What do you sell ?

 

You can push every system to the limit but that's not what the average player does.

[Royal Deluxe]

This number alone says nothing without context. The question is how did you get this amount of coins ?

 

How many traders do you know and use ?

How often do you visit the trader(s) ?

What do you sell ?

 

You can push every system to the limit but that's not what the average player does.

 

If we talk about moneysinks we need to be away of extrems.

Anyway, in A17.2 it would be more likely around 200k coins.

Means a few Moneysinks for lategame and all is fine.

I GUESS its not that hard to make imods that cost you great money but give only small advantages

[RipClaw]

If we talk about moneysinks we need to be away of extrems.

Anyway, in A17.2 it would be more likely around 200k coins.

Means a few Moneysinks for lategame and all is fine.

I GUESS its not that hard to make imods that cost you great money but give only small advantages

 

The players who play longer are mostly people who build large bases and like to decorate them. In Alpha 16, for example, I was always looking for these bar stools because you couldn't make them yourself and I liked them. Something like that would be nice to sink money into it.

 

And I want the possibility to buy an invisible pink unicorn for 500k coins

[meganoth]

The solution is to get rid of dukes...and don't replace it with anything.

 

Use credit....use credit PER TRADER.

 

I give the trader X items and do Y quests, and now I have Z units of credit, which i can spend to get items. No physical anything, no doing 3 quests for trader hugh and then buying a pistol from trader jen. This means that the player will always have to establish trust/credit with an npc before getting anything. It means no walking up to someone and giving them 10,000 widgets and taking everything valuable from them.

 

The fact that any ITEM is used becomes pointless.

 

Either the item is useless, in which case why are people accepting it in return for valuable goods in an unstable, post-apocalyptic society

 

Or the item is useful, which just opens up rampant abuse to be able to spam acquire huge amounts of something useful (and if it is endlessly available, it's value drops and drops the more prevalent it is until its useless again). If bullets become currency, then all that will happen is that bullets will cease to be the supply bottleneck they are now, and something else will replace them.

 

IMO this is the best solution (even though I like the "weird west/hell on earth"-vibe of the original idea)

 

1) Individual credit lines solve the PvP problem and

2) add the possibility to limit indivudual credit balance

3) You also get a reputation system on top

4) It would feel more like a primitve exchange trade system with the trader having the upper hand as you have to give him credit, but he doesn't give you any. In other words Trader Rekt compatible

 

I would add a simple rule to it: If a credit balance limit exists it is only enforced when you exit the trader dialog. This makes it possible to purchase legendary weapons/armor/mods with prices above the limit. Players would hoard diamonds or gold again as a high value trade item for buying such stuff

[Royal Deluxe]

IMO this is the best solution (even though I like the "weird west/hell on earth"-vibe of the original idea)

 

1) Individual credit lines solve the PvP problem and

2) add the possibility to limit indivudual credit balance

3) You also get a reputation system on top

4) It would feel more like a primitve exchange trade system with the trader having the upper hand as you have to give him credit, but he doesn't give you any. In other words Trader Rekt compatible

 

I would add a simple rule to it: If a credit balance limit exists it is only enforced when you exit the trader dialog. This makes it possible to purchase legendary weapons/armor/mods with prices above the limit. Players would hoard diamonds or gold again as a high value trade item for buying such stuff

 

Well i know we are not soo many who play this way, but map hopping would be a pain with this system

[fishjie]

If you make a trader cap so low that it affect a singleplayer it destroys multiplayer

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

In 17.1 in my long term game (less than 49 days) i had 502 000 Coins on stock after buying EVERYTHING i wanted

 

What'd you craft to get 500k coins? i'm crafting knives, armor and etc, but it takes forged iron or forged steel, and i don't have that much ore veins left. so i have to go out and buy it. i'm also selling stone 6k at a time. eventually though traders get bored with the stuff i sell so i have to go out further

[Royal Deluxe]

Extended Wrench tours give nice money

[Kattla]

This number alone says nothing without context. The question is how did you get this amount of coins ?

 

How many traders do you know and use ?

How often do you visit the trader(s) ?

What do you sell ?

 

You can push every system to the limit but that's not what the average player does.

 

No, not everyone does. However, a few does, and then TFP will balance/nerf based on those numbers.

I like it as much as common people liked poll taxes in the 13th century.

[PoppaTot]

I don't understand the big issue here. Honestly. Regardless of how the economy system is setup we'll all find ways to gain Dukes to buy what we want, if we really want what is being sold at the moment. If someone has a box of full of Dukes, or someone has to make 3 clubs, 3 pickaxes, and 3 fire axes to sell to get what they want/when they want it.... What really is the difference. Call it Dukes, make it ammo, use dollars, it makes no difference lol. Ammo = more exploitable than Dukes (or any other place holder to me) because I can just mine for 3 days to make 18,000 9mm rounds and buy whatever I want, with plenty of ammo left over.

 

The Traders should feel like a rip-off in the early stages of the game, you literally start with nothing of value. By late game we should have the advantage over the Trader due to us looting and leveling. It's natural progression the world of video games.

[Hollowprime]

Very nice idea. I personally hate keeping coins in me. Credit and reputation are the way to go. Credits will be a form of a personal account with the trader and reputation will allow the trader to provide the player with better offers and some...special items.

[Limdood]

IMO this is the best solution (even though I like the "weird west/hell on earth"-vibe of the original idea)

 

1) Individual credit lines solve the PvP problem and

2) add the possibility to limit indivudual credit balance

3) You also get a reputation system on top

4) It would feel more like a primitve exchange trade system with the trader having the upper hand as you have to give him credit, but he doesn't give you any. In other words Trader Rekt compatible

 

I would add a simple rule to it: If a credit balance limit exists it is only enforced when you exit the trader dialog. This makes it possible to purchase legendary weapons/armor/mods with prices above the limit. Players would hoard diamonds or gold again as a high value trade item for buying such stuff

 

I always felt this was how "trading" should work in this game. Extra bonus is that it extends to when random NPCs are added: Random family needs food...willing to give a huge amount of "credit" for food, but nothing for anything else, and has some ammo, an engine, and a wrench to "sell" with the credit....basically a fully functioning dynamic/radiant quest system created out of an intangible, nontransferrable currency.

 

If TFP feels the need to fiddle with it, it could even decay on a per-day basis (maybe even decay an increasing amount for a player who has been in a party at any point in the last day....suddenly multiplayer is (admittedly crudely and imprecisely) more balanced). or items can shift in cost based on supply and demand, both visible (the trader has 1) 3000 or 2) 100 cement, the price per 100 will be a lot higher, both buying and selling in case #2), and invisible (game randomly determines this day that the trader is buying ammo at a premium, paying little to nothing for stone, selling tools at a huge markup, and selling food at a massive discount....due to....the illusion of a larger world beyond the player's reach?)

[Mday]

Dukes + trader= limited supply of anything from trader. If you ever need more you gota mine/ loot for more.

If you use ammo as currency, that will remove 85% of mining from the game. No more lead/coal/N for ammo crafting.

 

FIAT currency is what we use ILR. At least with the Dukes the trader is bound to sell you whatever ammo he has on hand at the time. You don't always have that privilege with the USD.

 

Also wana point out that, given enough time players will always be sitting on piles of something, be it dukes/ammo/items etc. I am totally fine with that because it is why I play the game. I like to build up wealth as I play and advance in the game.

[Mday]

Only useful items would have any value after an apocalypse.

 

Fun fact, our ancestors use stones and rocks as currency. They lived in a world even more apocalypse-ish than what we have in 7 days to die because they have no guns no armor and no antibiotics. At the end of the day trade is based on trust, not the currency.

[Royal Deluxe]

Only useful items would have any value after an apocalypse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones

[Gazz]

It does not really matter what currency you use.

 

In this game (like many) it's easy to generate value and prices are fixed with variations based on your barter skill.

 

It is inevitable that players "win" the trading game.

 

Inflation would delay and possibly "fix" that but it would have to be war economy inflation to make a dent and no one wants that insanity. LOL

[Windsailor]

I agree with Gazz on this one.

 

I don’t think 7D2D should be a full fledged market economy simulator.

 

There are other “issues” which should be tackled first.

[Royal Deluxe]

Would be nice if prices couldf have dependencies like Range to next biome of kind x, Player reputation and more.

(Maybe together with a system that allow players to clear and repair Industrial Pois)

If we can get this (maybe after going gold) we could make a nice economy mod.

 

But this is anyway still a long way.

[Kirtonos]

It does not really matter what currency you use.

 

In this game (like many) it's easy to generate value and prices are fixed with variations based on your barter skill.

 

It is inevitable that players "win" the trading game.

 

Inflation would delay and possibly "fix" that but it would have to be war economy inflation to make a dent and no one wants that insanity. LOL

 

What matters is that you have enough sinks to siphon out the currency that is being given as rewards on a bullet point feature that you use to buy goods from another bullet point feature of your game. Players should always feel squeezed for currency until they reach the end game. This is the role of a systems designer to build in that sense of progression and encourage moments when the player will engage in content so that they can achieve their goal.

 

Why would players engage in T5 quests that cost them hundreds of ammo to complete when they will get an item that will probably be sold for dukes, xp that they don't really need at that point, and more dukes that they can't use because there is nothing worth purchasing? This is the underlying problem being discussed in this thread not mudflation. This issue is why there are multiple threads about the difficulty of gamestage, the difficulty of t5 quests, the lackluster reception of loot at higher levels, and the state of the economy.

 

So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.

[Psychodabble]

What matters is that you have enough sinks to siphon out the currency that is being given as rewards on a bullet point feature that you use to buy goods from another bullet point feature of your game. Players should always feel squeezed for currency until they reach the end game. This is the role of a systems designer to build in that sense of progression and encourage moments when the player will engage in content so that they can achieve their goal.

 

Why would players engage in T5 quests that cost them hundreds of ammo to complete when they will get an item that will probably be sold for dukes, xp that they don't really need at that point, and more dukes that they can't use because there is nothing worth purchasing? This is the underlying problem being discussed in this thread not mudflation. This issue is why there are multiple threads about the difficulty of gamestage, the difficulty of t5 quests, the lackluster reception of loot at higher levels, and the state of the economy.

 

So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.

 

Thank god at least one person gets it. There are so many responses here that miss the point entirely that I had given up.

[gotitdone]

I like it! By using ammo as a currency you have a built in sink. And it fits with the post apocalyptic theme.

[stasis78]

Ammo is too easy to make.

[Psychodabble]

Ammo is too easy to make.

 

That can obviously be changed...did you miss the part where I said that some serious thought would have to go into balancing the ammo recipes vs item costs?

 

It's not a system that completely sorts itself, but the massive advantage it has over the existing Duke system or a theoretical credit system is a natural sink of escalating strength. As gamestage goes up you encounter more and tougher zombies requiring you to expend more and more ammo.

 

Your capacity to gather and craft also goes up in that time, giving you the feeling of progression, but you'll never hit a point where you're sitting on a pile of ammo thinking "what to do with this?"

 

I'm not sure how, but that last point seems completely lost on most of the posters here, including Gazz, which scares me a bit.

[Roland]

What matters is that you have enough sinks to siphon out the currency that is being given as rewards on a bullet point feature that you use to buy goods from another bullet point feature of your game. Players should always feel squeezed for currency until they reach the end game. This is the role of a systems designer to build in that sense of progression and encourage moments when the player will engage in content so that they can achieve their goal.

 

Why would players engage in T5 quests that cost them hundreds of ammo to complete when they will get an item that will probably be sold for dukes, xp that they don't really need at that point, and more dukes that they can't use because there is nothing worth purchasing? This is the underlying problem being discussed in this thread not mudflation. This issue is why there are multiple threads about the difficulty of gamestage, the difficulty of t5 quests, the lackluster reception of loot at higher levels, and the state of the economy.

 

So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.

 

Right. And if what we have now was all we were ever gonna have I would be there with you. But you are putting a lot of thought and criticism on a partly-done system. Tier 5 quests are done but the legendary loot that will be the reward is still not in the game.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't critique but there is a very good reason the bullet points aren't working together cohesively yet. It's the other as of yet missing bullet points you aren't considering.

 

Dukes are the enforced currency by the Duke but the Duke and his casino are not in the game yet.

 

There are tier 5 quests but their intended rewards are not in the game yet.

 

Bandits and the Duke himself are the most dangerous threats in the game but they are not yet implemented.

 

If you could at least acknowledge the missing parts when discussing the current status then it gives a better idea of the whole picture. I believe that the casino tokens will be useful as currency and also fit in with the lore of the game. I believe that there will be loot worth doing a tier 5 quest to obtain and that you probably won't want to sell it but use it to help you survive against the bandit incursions into your world beyond what the zombies can do now.

 

I can tell you for a certainty that the reason there are so many threads complaining about partially done systems is because their authors are treating them as if they are the final intended versions. Some are even saying that the devs shouldn't release anything until its complete-- in an early access game!