quyxkh Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I hadn't played in ages, when 17 hit I started again and died fast. Started over. Died. Learned to not always powerhit. Starved. Learned to prioritize food. Then water. Then to stop setting up in isolated ruins. Seems death is a good teacher, it got me desperate and (omg) thinking about what I was going to need, and surviving longer and longer felt really good, when I could take on a minihorde or biggish POI day 1 felt damn good. I liked it. I'm writing this late at night so maybe if I fetch the 17.0 version again from steam it won't still seem so hard when I retry, but it wasn't _that_ long ago. Anybody else want or at least think maybe they want hard mode back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 +1 It gave you different starting priorities and a lot more risk in the first few days rather than the rush to steel/base/boredom everyone was complaining about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombo Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 In the first alpha of 17, yeah it was fine. A few points in STREX and I didn't even need coffee on my melee build. I am not sure why everyone is so unhappy with this, the wait for stam regen isn't that long, it was longer in older alphas wasn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I'm writing this late at night so maybe if I fetch the 17.0 version again from steam it won't still seem so hard when I retry, but it wasn't _that_ long ago. Anybody else want or at least think maybe they want hard mode back? I am struggling to think what "hard mode" you are referring to, because it can't possibly be any build of A17, which I consider the easiest alpha yet. Tedium does not equal challenge btw. Bullet sponge enemies are not hard, just boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quyxkh Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 Yah, if you didn't know what you were doing they didn't die fast. Figuring out what made them die fast helped me a lot and felt good, the only ones that felt like bullet sponges were the ones that looked like bullet sponges, to which the answer in the game is "approach with caution until you get better weapons". If you don't bother learning how to make them die fast, then they're all going to die slow and it'll feel tedious. I don't think that's the game making that tedious, I think that's the game not rewarding mindless button mashing by people who want every game to make them feel like Sonic the Hedgehog. Calling anything slower paced than that "tedium" feels cheap. Thinking about/exploring to discover what's worth attacking, what's worth carrying, where to settle, how to ensure enough food and water, seem to me like obvious major elements of a "survival" game with the horde making that an inherently dangerous and initially desperate venture, with the crafting kicking in once you can handle the initial survival and horde parts, and the crafting informs the where to settle part just as much as the survival bit so it all hangs together. I figured out melee and was going to do an archer run when the systems changed, I'd like a chance to try an archer run on the old system. I haven't looked at modding, how much of the 17.0 systems could be brought back that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjiro Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 In the first alpha of 17, yeah it was fine. A few points in STREX and I didn't even need coffee on my melee build. I am not sure why everyone is so unhappy with this, the wait for stam regen isn't that long, it was longer in older alphas wasn't it? Playing devils advocate here. The issue with the current Stamina system is simply, that while yes, it regenerates fast, it also drains fast. This create the issue: Old style: Do a bunch of actions, clear area, pause, do more actions, use some food or drinks to speed up recovery... repeat. New style: Do a few actions, pause, do a few actions, pause, do a few actions, pause ... You feel like your playing a 250kg man, that has no stamina at all, that acts like his is having a asthma attack after a few ( non heavy ) hits. Then after you kill some zombies, you magically start getting better ( XP points > Skills ) at some actions but its still more a stamina micromanagement game. The buffer you had in A16 or before, is gone. Same with starting in a bad starting location ( RG ) and you needed to run to find a good spot, that was so much fun in A17. /sarcasm A few words i use a lot in my complaints is realism and suspension of disbelief. When you push a game into one direction too much, it starts to eat at people their suspensions of disbelief. And its so boring to always have those micro pauses to regenerate. Before in A16 you had more control over your stamina. Running low, eat / drink, to push up your stamina while doing a activity ( like distance running ). A17 eat / drink to have normal regeneration but you directly have little control over it. The game has taken away your direct control and in return gives you constant micro pauses until you perk up. And those perks feel forced, so you end up with the same type of builds on every game start. Take in account what i write depends also on the build. We have had a lot of A17 Experimental builds, then A17 Stable, now A17.1 ... information tends to age very badly with A17 its constant changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombo Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 So how should it work? All actions take longer to drain the bar, but to compensate it takes longer to regen? I'd be okay with that so coffee and other buffs are actually useful again. If they are going to keep stam as is now- I would think it's best to just remove it cause it's too easy after a few perks. And bicycles are gotten so late, everyone just skips them and uses minibikes or motorcycles, so stamina is just... WELL IT NEEDS SOME MORE WORK OKAY! I am freakin out, cause my stamina for this thread has been exhausted and I can't afford perks for it yet =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 go get some coffee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 17.0 Stamina was only a pain in the ass. Made the chance to die for me in no way greater. All it did was slow me down and annoy me. This moment i am again at startgame and sit in darkness on a tree. Chance to die there is nearly zero So the question, is it harder to have nothing and cant act, sure. Is it more difficult, more of a challenge. In no way. Good difficulty means * Hidden but rare enemys (not like now where you allready expect enemys under every roof and in each wall) * Enemys that can move in a way you have a hard time to stop them (Vultures are really nice at this) ... or simply said Typical zombies as mass, and hard ones that come unexpected. Or did anyone of you EVER died by a zombie in a fight you choose to fight ? I can only remember one time i died in a choosen fight, and that was a boar in the second experimental. And it was 100% my own fail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjiro Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Or did anyone of you EVER died by a zombie in a fight you choose to fight ? I can only remember one time i died in a choosen fight, and that was a boar in the second experimental. And it was 100% my own fail When playing as a newbie, yes, at those times. As a veteran pre A16 ... Almost never in Vanilla. Mods, that is a different game A17, yes ... Ferals dropping behind from ceiling or other cheesy spots. And no, i do not consider that good for being exiting, i call that simply game cheating. If that is the only way to kill players, then your game has balancing issues and as a developer you know it. Royal: I think no matter what we write, the Pimp are simply going to keep wasting time trying to "fix" A17, as it progresses into A18. Putting band aids on issues. Game stage too hard? Here is a option for you to disable Feral runners. Game stage too hard with Radiated. Here is a option for you to disable it. Do not like the damage of Zombie, here is a option for you to change in ingame. You can later tweak it. Its shifting responsibility to the players, so the Pimp can simply point to X option in the menu. What does not solve the fun factor, lack of mid or late content, electricity stagnation, stamina issues, the AI issues, the perks, the ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 So how should it work? All actions take longer to drain the bar, but to compensate it takes longer to regen? I'd be okay with that so coffee and other buffs are actually useful again. Yeah I like this idea. At least you can manage Stamina that way. I am freakin out, cause my stamina for this thread has been exhausted and I can't afford perks for it yet =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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