Navezgane is now way better than RWG, and some POI feedback

[grieferbastard]

As someone who always did RWG before I decided on A17 to play Navezgane to get a solid feel for what TFP intended the game to feel like.

 

Holy ♥♥♥♥ if you're playing RWG now, stop and go to Navezgane. It's huge, super super huge and the POIs and map design is excellent. It's just a flat out better environment than any of the RWGs I've tried and it feels huge and roomy even with vehicles.

 

The POIs are incredible. For people wanting a nice 'safe' base if you clean out Shotgun Messiah Factory the top of it is excellent. It has everything you need and just to test it I sat out night 21 horde in my crafting bunker on the 4th floor. I had some repair work to do in the morning but other than the noise I was fine all night, went down in the daylight and boinked heads with arrows and a fireaxe for a bit. The structure is too large and has too many different support points to worry about getting dug out. Have stairs and ramps with gaps so they climb and try to jump but they end up falling on spike traps. Have a parkour and L-shaped ladder entrance up an outside wall.

 

The only negative feedback I have is this -

 

POI rewards are not worth it. Not even close to worth it. 4-8 glowing zombies means that I'm losing resources clearing the POI. Flat out not worth it save as XP farming, which I can still do faster/easier just running around. If it takes 3x the ammo and resources to kill a radiated zombie but he only gives 20% more XP it's best to just ignore/kite them. Next POI I clear I'll just kite the irradiated ones out to a pit outside and ditch them or brutally exploit the AI to just farm them with stone arrow headshots.

 

Don't make me do that. None of that is fun. Make it worthwhile to kill the strongest zombies and the zombie bears. Either dramatically improve the POI rewards (tons of ammo. Like 200+ rounds for most stuff) or the XP rewards for irradiated zombies (if they have 2x the health make them worth 2x the XP). Otherwise you're strongly encouraging gaming the AI or kite-and-ditch, which isn't fun.

[HungryZombie]

Can't say you are wrong about the loot. Others have commented on it and from what I read of developer comments better more rewarding loot is coming. I think they just wanted to get the POI framework set in this build.

[Junuxx]

I feel like radiated zombies etc should just be *much* more likely to drop loot bags (with ammo).

[Randomdude]

POI rewards are not worth it. Not even close to worth it. 4-8 glowing zombies means that I'm losing resources clearing the POI. Flat out not worth it save as XP farming, which I can still do faster/easier just running around. If it takes 3x the ammo and resources to kill a radiated zombie but he only gives 20% more XP it's best to just ignore/kite them. Next POI I clear I'll just kite the irradiated ones out to a pit outside and ditch them or brutally exploit the AI to just farm them with stone arrow headshots.

 

Don't make me do that. None of that is fun. Make it worthwhile to kill the strongest zombies and the zombie bears. Either dramatically improve the POI rewards (tons of ammo. Like 200+ rounds for most stuff) or the XP rewards for irradiated zombies (if they have 2x the health make them worth 2x the XP). Otherwise you're strongly encouraging gaming the AI or kite-and-ditch, which isn't fun.

 

Agree with you 100%

 

I doubt there is a more disappointing feeling than finding a couple of Working Stiff/Shotgun Mess. boxes after a TOUGH POI dungeon crawl to find inside:

 

1 lvl 2 pistol

2 lvl 3 Iron Picks

2 Iron doors

40 paper

23 Rebar frames

 

Lost in the process:

2 Med Kits

3 First Aid bandages

1 Bacon and Eggs

3 Golden Rod drinks

100 7.26 Rounds

1 splint

 

Worth???

[Kattla]

After they added the option to set feral speed, i put them to walk during daytime.

Now all zombies walk during daytime , and that helped make the game I play a bit

more enjoyable.

[Limdood]

I like RWG for 3 reasons:

 

1. randomness. I start up new games often enough that knowing where a given POI is will quickly become a thing. As it is, I already know the traders are arrayed like the 5 pips on a dice, that means exploring to try to find traders isn't a thing and will never be a thing in navezgane unless they redo the whole thing again.

 

2. Trader proximity to each other. I look for RWG maps with two traders near each other if possible. It makes running quests and rechecking for certain key items significantly less frustrating. I severely dislike running for 4 hours of the day just to get to a location....spend 8 hours there, and 4 hours back....i'm wasting half my time. Traders by traders reduces my running. Navezgane's traders are all evenly spaced roughly 2km away from the next nearest trader.

 

3. Traders near or in towns. This actually ranks above #2 for me. If i can get a RWG map with a trader in or on the edge of a major town or city, It makes the game a lot more fun for me. I like the quests (having 1-3 options each day for quests that are under 1km distance is a BIG plus), and I like having something loosely resembling an economy as an alternate way to get items than looting or crafting. Navezgane's traders are all spaced a healthy distance away from towns, such that most quests are sending you over 1km EVERY time, every day, at every level, with only the occasional freakish coincidence resulting in a short, fast quest run.

 

For those 3 reasons, i'll tend to play RWG pretty much all the time....each map has new and interesting challenges....predominantly desert, snow, or wasteland maps spring to mind, or maps with huge, game-impacting bodies of water. And each map has a fair chance to give me at least one of #s 2 and 3 above

[Roland]

I agree that the rewards need to be better but I disagree that improving the rewards will reduce the temptation to lure zombies outside and kite them in the streets. That's a strategy people will always use.

 

I think they should greatly increase the probability of getting a yellow loot bag from high end zombies so that you get that plus whatever loot is in the house. That would be a start to helping out the worthwhileness of it.

[Guppycur]

Or have something happening to the house that would give people a reason to hasten the poi search...

 

...incoming bandits or some other timed threat would work.

 

Or a fire. Collapse. Something.

[Ttocs]

Loving nave atm too by now on a16 i would have been bored of it already. Is it bigger though bar the extra stuff crammed in? it seems the same size so far but have only hit the endges in a few places maybe im missing something, could someone pm me a screen of the unfogged a17 nave maybe? i feel its abit of a spoiler to post it.

 

edit: nvm found one, only seems slightly bigger

[Laz Man]

After they added the option to set feral speed, i put them to walk during daytime.

Now all zombies walk during daytime , and that helped make the game I play a bit

more enjoyable.

 

I did something similar. I put all normal zeds to walking only with ferals and bloodmoons to sprinting. Best balance for me so far. At least until I get better at the game.

[Kalarro]

Agree, but I would say, RWG is worse than navezgane, instead of the opposite.

 

I only played RWG before. Now I only play navezgane. But it's bc of how bad RWG is, not the opposite.

[Hek Harris]

Agree, but I would say, RWG is worse than navezgane, instead of the opposite.

I only played RWG before. Now I only play navezgane. But it's bc of how bad RWG is, not the opposite.

 

Strange. If we except the concern with the roads (even if, after all, an earthquake could explain their condition) and the industrial zones which are not diversified enough, I find the RWG excellent. Wide plains, gigantic mountains, cities of good size, extensive and well connected biomes, intelligent distribution of POIs... Rivers and lakes are still lacking, but it is surely wanted, water being a work in progress.

In short, I find you very demanding when you see the quality of the work done.

[zombie4hire]

I have generated two maps in RWG in 17.1 and I am very happy with them. Sure I might play NG to see some of the new POIs, but that is the only reason.

[zombo]

Green zombies are easy later on with perks and armor\weapon mods, even on insane difficulty. For an awkward period of time they are not worth fighting I would say, which forces me to mine for a while to level up some more. I like the challenge though. I like that it gets soo dangerous out there I have to find other ways to win.

Every single poi having a bunch of them does feel more arcade and less of a simulation though, so certainly they have something better planned for future.

 

 

NAVASGENIE? NAVA LAVA? Whatever that stupid place is called... I haven't seen much of it since alpha 8? Once random gen came out, It's all I play. What little I seen of it in alpha 16 was really impressive though, I can see why people would like it over RWG. Bridges... rivers... lakes... lake houses... Heck even a house IN a lake on tall stilts, very cool.

 

I am avoiding going back there until the game is further along, a map that good deserves not being spoiled I guess.

[IgnyteZero]

POI rewards are not worth it. Not even close to worth it. 4-8 glowing zombies means that I'm losing resources clearing the POI. Flat out not worth it save as XP farming, which I can still do faster/easier just running around. If it takes 3x the ammo and resources to kill a radiated zombie but he only gives 20% more XP it's best to just ignore/kite them. Next POI I clear I'll just kite the irradiated ones out to a pit outside and ditch them or brutally exploit the AI to just farm them with stone arrow headshots.

 

Don't make me do that. None of that is fun. Make it worthwhile to kill the strongest zombies and the zombie bears. Either dramatically improve the POI rewards (tons of ammo. Like 200+ rounds for most stuff) or the XP rewards for irradiated zombies (if they have 2x the health make them worth 2x the XP). Otherwise you're strongly encouraging gaming the AI or kite-and-ditch, which isn't fun.

 

This to me is really the biggest issue (except crashes, instability etc) with a17 now. As soon as your gamestage gets high enough exploring POI's is a no-win scenario. You are loosing way more resources than you gain, even with trader questing in mind, when you're past day 50. It feels like too much attention and focus has been on meeting complaints from people who rarely plays past the third bm horde.

Things like airdrops and looting must scale somehow with gamestage also, not only the challenge. As it is now the game is killing itself (in a metaphorical sense) the better you get. It should of course get harder, but resources gained from exploring must meet the challenge exploring offers to be worthwhile and fun. 7DTD is tons of fun, but has a real crappy risk/reward-curve.

[Feycat]

I have generated two maps in RWG in 17.1 and I am very happy with them. Sure I might play NG to see some of the new POIs, but that is the only reason.

 

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I honestly don't know what all the RWG crying is about? RWG seems in a pretty good place right now.

[canadianbluebeer]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I honestly don't know what all the RWG crying is about? RWG seems in a pretty good place right now.

 

Roads. They are a mess.

Many many of one or 2 types of POI.

Crazy patchwork of biomes. (measles effect)

 

I don't care about the long gen time though, cause once it's done, it's done.

Servers may, as it takes time to send the genmap to the client, but again, once it's done, it's done.

[Bhaaltazar]

Hehe RWG on my last map and few previous ones had 305 Cell_Tower_02s and 298 Cell_Tower_01s ) So it was like aftermath of Stephen King's Cell novel/movie when those "phoners" takes over.

[grieferbastard]

I've used almost exclusively RWG up until A17, having only played Nav a few times.

 

However in A17 Nav is pretty awesome. Well designed, it just feels like a better use of the space than RWG right now. Good spacing on POIs and shops while many of the POIs are randomly shuffled - a house that has a forge in one playthrough may have nothing of value in the next. There's some major POIs that clearly stay in the same spot but the regular houses shuffle around.

 

It's not that I mind the challenge of irradiated zombies. It's that the XP and POI rewards don't match (even close, even at high levels with high power gear and perks) the cost involved in clearing them all to get to the loot.

 

No objection to people kiting zombies out to fight in the street. My objection is that at this point it's not worth fighting the radiated zombies. Sucker them into jumping off the roof or just kite them down to a pit, then leave them. There is no reason to fight irradiated zombies in any context or for any reason. The resource consumption is way out of scope for the rewards they give, even for XP. Even if 1 in 3 dropped a loot bag it'd be iffy.

 

Conversely after finding little of value relative to invested cost after fighting a pile of irradiated zombies at this huge POI I find a slew of amazing mods and tools in a random generic POI that took a fraction of the resources to clear. I'm even okay with a big random factor but I need to at least feel the gamble is probably worth it. Currently it isn't. I'm just ignoring the big POIs because I know there's nothing in them worth the effort to get there regardless of my level.

 

That, I feel, would be good to fix. Steep odds of mods IMO would be worth it. Not even blueprints (which are, in a way, more valuable than mods as you can make as many as you want from 1 blueprint) but just a random mod or two. Mods to anything give you a bit of a sense of personalization and early on that's very valuable. Later on in the game it's less relevant as you've probably got everything already but having big POIs likely to give you a mod or two for your armor or weapons or tools would make it worth the investment earlier in the game, when that investment has a real cost. Later on when I have 5k rounds for my fully pimped AK and my fully upgraded military armor I'll go kill greenies for giggles. give me reason to take risks earlier when the risks mean more.

[Ghostlight]

POI rewards are not worth it. Not even close to worth it. 4-8 glowing zombies means that I'm losing resources clearing the POI. Flat out not worth it save as XP farming

 

I don't get this. You are entering a POI to get to the loot room, not to collect ammo or other basic resource. If that loot room gives you a rare and powerful mod, how is that not worth it? It's RNG, right? Some POIs are going to be worth it because you find something really nice you wanted, some won't. You are rolling that die each time you enter one. The "cost" of rolling that die is the time and resource you spend clearing it.

 

Furthermore since your loot table is improving as gamestage increases, the increased danger of late game POIs comes with better loot.

 

Seems fair enough to me.

[Ghostlight]

Strange. If we except the concern with the roads (even if, after all, an earthquake could explain their condition) and the industrial zones which are not diversified enough, I find the RWG excellent. Wide plains, gigantic mountains, cities of good size, extensive and well connected biomes, intelligent distribution of POIs... Rivers and lakes are still lacking, but it is surely wanted, water being a work in progress.

 

I agree. Got my gyrocopter the other night and did some proper fly-over of much of my 8k map (as it was largely unexplored). It's a damn good map. Still way too much wasteland and no rivers, but damn fine otherwise.

[grieferbastard]

I don't get this. You are entering a POI to get to the loot room, not to collect ammo or other basic resource. If that loot room gives you a rare and powerful mod, how is that not worth it? It's RNG, right? Some POIs are going to be worth it because you find something really nice you wanted, some won't. You are rolling that die each time you enter one. The "cost" of rolling that die is the time and resource you spend clearing it.

 

Furthermore since your loot table is improving as gamestage increases, the increased danger of late game POIs comes with better loot.

 

Seems fair enough to me.

 

 

Except it's never worth it that I've seen. At any game stage, early or late. Most the mods and blueprints I've got I picked up in easy POIs. The hardest POIs with the irradiated zombies even at low player levels don't give anything worth the resource cost. Late on when I've got 2 or 3 different mines down to bedrock and gunpowder cooking 24x7 some worthless guns and mid-tier armor doesn't matter. The point is that I'm rarely finding mods or blueprints in the top tier POIs. Just random crap I can make better versions of already.

 

Either have it provide ammo and decent loot or have the zombies provide way more XP (and more likely to drop loot) or make the rewards in those POIs way better. Cuz early to mid game the cost and risk is way too high for what you find and late game what you find is still inferior to what you'll have learned to make for yourself.

[iicecube]

I always think of "Navezgane" was just a learning stage for 7d2d as its much easy to gather mostly everything if you just take note of the biome and POIs, while RWG are still way challenge and interesting to explore all over the location if you dont review or break the game with your cheatmenu..