Complete (and last) statement to the status of A17 and its mistakes

[JCrook1028]

This will be the last post I make.

 

Ok, let's be objective and accurate. You've already broken that..... Even in this very thread you've posted several more times. I assume you meant to say above this is the last thread you make?

 

Anyway, I'll take it as such and hope you actually mean it. Enjoy A16 modded til A18 pops.

[Morloc]

I think what most people mean by "difficulty" is not the zombies... seriously, I have them always on run (where they are faster than you but not when you sprint) and on insane and they are still just xp pinhatas.

I think difficulty means, getting started, making yourself comfortable in the game.

Gathering ressources without beeing out of breath every 2 seconds, getting starting gear while keeping in mind food, water, temperature,foodpoisoning,diarrea when clearing out zombies from a poi, seeing attackpatterns and how to fight wolves and vultures.

 

None of this is goverened by difficulty settings.

In A16 you instantly got a feel for the game. Yes it was still a load, but at least you could run anywhere without beeing out of breath every 2 seconds. And while you were doing that in the game, you already got better at attributes. In A17 you also need to know what you want to put points into, because you will get fewer and fewer points and reskilling isn't possible, so if you have put everything into agility, you don't have any inventory, nothing to fight, no forge no nothing.

 

At least this is what I am fairly certain most ppl mean by "A17 is more difficult".

Because it is definalty easier to play (against zombies) as molotovs now give xp and zombies have even worse range.

 

1) I think what most people mean by "difficulty" is not the zombies...

 

"The zombies" are without a doubt a major factor in the game's difficulty. If you fall into, or otherwise spring a POI trap, the game's difficulty level will impact whether you survive quite a bit.

2) I have them always on run (where they are faster than you but not when you sprint) and on insane and they are still just xp pinhatas.

 

Bizarre. Are we talking about A17+ here? If the zombies are reduced to "xp Piٌatas" for you playing on AR/Insane, then why have you never built a vehicle? How is it possible that you never made it past level 25?? If you are getting bored with those settings, then 7D2D is never going to rise to the difficulty level that could satisfy you.

 

3) I think difficulty means, getting started, making yourself comfortable in the game.

Gathering ressources without beeing out of breath every 2 seconds, getting starting gear while keeping in mind food, water, temperature,foodpoisoning,diarrea when clearing out zombies from a poi, seeing attackpatterns and how to fight wolves and vultures. None of this is goverened by difficulty settings.

 

Could you rephrase that? The best I'm getting is that you think the game's difficulty is essentially the survival meta-game....which, like the zombies, is a component certainly. I'm not certain I understand though.

 

4) In A17 you also need to know what you want to put points into, because you will get fewer and fewer points and reskilling isn't possible, so if you have put everything into agility, you don't have any inventory, nothing to fight, no forge no nothing.

 

You'll get almost all the points through leveling up as I understand it. The exp/level curve is not steep. Spend 'em if you got 'em....don't worry about missing something at all.

 

 

-Morloc

[BobTheBard]

I'm inclined to agree with Icehot and MadMole here. While I initially liked them and wanted to see them back, the more I play the more I find myself not really missing gun parts at all. Gunplay is a much more important part of A17 than previous alphas and having full guns more readily available changes the way the game handles significantly. Also, at this point I think the gun part system was too irrevocably tied to the old quality system (which I didn't like as much, except for the quality bonuses which are being added back in I hear) to really work right now.

[Viktoriusiii]

"The zombies" are without a doubt a major factor in the game's difficulty. If you fall into, or otherwise spring a POI trap, the game's difficulty level will impact whether you survive quite a bit.

Really? I mean you pretty much know every trap after day 21 (I wasn't in every poi but most you already know after visiting once) but before that only normals spawn (which is good! i dont want experimental with ferals day 1 back) which aren't that big of a threat, as you can mostly outmanouver them. But fair point, I guess. Zombies were never really a threat to me (my deaths mostly came from insane spawning back when you spawned in wasteland, bugs and spawn on wolves)

 

Bizarre. Are we talking about A17+ here? If the zombies are reduced to "xp Piٌatas" for you playing on AR/Insane, then why have you never built a vehicle? How is it possible that you never made it past level 25?? If you are getting bored with those settings, then 7D2D is never going to rise to the difficulty level that could satisfy you.

 

It was never the difficulty that made me leave. Difficulty is OTHER people complaining. For me its a sandbox game and as you said, will never "satisfy" me without getting insanely punishing and unrewarding to play.

 

 

Could you rephrase that? The best I'm getting is that you think the game's difficulty is essentially the survival meta-game....which, like the zombies, is a component certainly. I'm not certain I understand though.

 

Basically yes. I feel like for new players survival is a bigger threat (maybe silent animals) than zombies. At least from what I have heard them say.

 

You'll get almost all the points through leveling up as I understand it. The exp/level curve is not steep. Spend 'em if you got 'em....don't worry about missing something at all.

 

Uhm... yeah... you have to descide where to put the points in (in A16 you just got better as you did them), which raises the difficulty for those players who skill the wrong things because they don't know any better.

 

 

Hope that cleared it up.

[Jeraal]

As a real life gun enthusiast, I really liked the gun parts. I can easily see myself taking the best of what I find and making a better one if I happen to find guns of the same model. If nothing else, I would be collecting and storing springs and firing pins by make and model.

[Jedo]

I'd love to see the request(s) for the current stamina system. Don't pretend the overwhelming feedback from the implementation of new "features" hasn't been negative.

 

I second what Greymantle said. The stamina system is punishing (well, it was when A17 first released), and I'm glad. I just spent most of a day walking to the nearest trader to preserve stamina and I prayed for food. My stamina was below 40, and without food, it wasn't coming back. That was challenging, and I loved trying to make it work.

[Roland]

I'm inclined to agree with Icehot and MadMole here. While I initially liked them and wanted to see them back, the more I play the more I find myself not really missing gun parts at all. Gunplay is a much more important part of A17 than previous alphas and having full guns more readily available changes the way the game handles significantly. Also, at this point I think the gun part system was too irrevocably tied to the old quality system (which I didn't like as much, except for the quality bonuses which are being added back in I hear) to really work right now.

 

For those of us who played the earliest alphas finding whole guns is a dear old friend who has suddenly appeared and it is exciting to be with again. Adds a nostalgic flavor to the game for me.

 

Now where are the clay molds?

 

[Katitof]

Can you imagine how punishing this game is to new players now? It's honestly just tedious to play. I can imagine a lot of people not bothering buying the game after seeing the community response. They obviously wanted the player to have the feeling of growing in power as they progress, but they're implementation is beyond poor. It seems the devs are incapable of taking the feedback of the player base, taking the attitude of "we know best". I swear they don't even play the game. It'll all come full circle with a downturn in purchase and player retention. It'll serve them right too.

 

I know it might be a shocker to you, but there is a LOT of games which are punishing for new players and these games are still acclaimed successes.

 

Picking from the genre of survival games, may I present you Don't Starve, where you are just thrown into the world and left alone to figure out everything. At least 7d offers tutorials.

[unclevlad]

Now where are the clay molds?

 

 

Return of the clay molds would fall just below "Minecraft-style lava" and just above "radiated zombies kill you with their mind" on my wish list.

[Greymantle]

Oh, hell yeah. Please add damage to quality. As it is theres no huge boost to craft steel tools or weapons. I can get by just fine with iron tools/weapons and the 5 mod slots.

 

I'm all for this but please don't make such a huge gap from T1 to T6. One damage upgrade for each tier would be enough IMHO.

[Ornias]

Roland are we going to get real caves back?

[Roland]

Return of the clay molds would fall just below "Minecraft-style lava" and just above "radiated zombies kill you with their mind" on my wish list.

 

So now there's two of us that really hope for them!

[Roland]

Roland are we going to get real caves back?

 

I hope so. But...unknown.

[madmole]

I know it might be a shocker to you, but there is a LOT of games which are punishing for new players and these games are still acclaimed successes.

 

Picking from the genre of survival games, may I present you Don't Starve, where you are just thrown into the world and left alone to figure out everything. At least 7d offers tutorials.

 

And Ark. Its pretty common to die about 50 times the first few hours of that game.

[CoolJ]

I read your big rant. The funny thing is no matter how you say it, its still fundamentally the same. You grind for xp and buy perks. Finding gun parts was the tedious bs we took out, and people say we added tedium? What good is a x receiver to a struggling survivor? All it did was fill your backpack with useless garbage. I could go on and on, but I suggest playing the game. Play 16 if you love it. It wasn't as great as you remember if you just play 17 with an open mind.

 

We're probably adding damage back to quality and I have a get better at crafting by crafting design I need to sell to the team.

 

I'd suggest playing 17.1 or wait, we're improving the game but it takes time. Its not perfect but its getting better each patch.

 

Don't sweat it MM. I am not going to pretend that I have not had my critiques of A17. However, those where mostly technical and balance related. When it comes to the systems in development and general game direction, A17.1 is the best version of the game yet. Ultimately, you should do what you want. It has gotten you this far already. No matter what changes you implement, there will be detractors.

[Ghostlight]

Vic, I think I agree with just about every point you made. I still like the game a lot, though and will play a lot a more A17. You should stick with it. As you noted yourself, the first week or two are tedious, but once you are over that hump there's a great game waiting.

 

I am still on the fence about whether A17 is better than A16. It has a lot I love, but also a lot I hate.

[unholyjoe]

And Ark. Its pretty common to die about 50 times the first few hours of that game.

 

yep and when their weather is way more demanding than ours.

[Ghostlight]

I agree with you on the gun parts, always hated it. The mods are much cooler imo.

 

The thing is, the mods gimmick is over (i.e. maxed out) too quickly and too early in the game. You will have 5 mods in your guns the moment you can craft tier 6 guns typically. Where do you go from there? At least the gun parts hunt lasted much much longer. In fact some of the rarer guns like the Magnum were a real challenge to get to 600.

 

Love 'em or hate 'em, gun parts provided a longer end-game which we no longer have, and continuous character progression which we now desperately lack in A17. And since gun part-based progression was based directly on looting, it provided a real drive for the player to keep exploring and keep looting. Something that I find terribly lacking in A17. Day 30, I have everything at tier 6, and all the mods I will ever need. No real need to loot POIs any more. And I have explored almost none of my 8k map to achieve this.

[BloodDeacon]

We're probably adding damage back to quality and I have a get better at crafting by crafting design I need to sell to the team.

 

Thanks MM -- this is tremendous news. I felt that everything in A17 was a positive or at worst lateral move with the exception of one-size-fits-all progression.

[Royal Deluxe]

Why try to reason 7D2D with ark ?

 

My playtime in 7D2D 6000+ Hours

My playtime in ark

1.5 hours

 

[Noompsie]

Why try to reason 7D2D with ark ?

 

My playtime in 7D2D 6000+ Hours

My playtime in ark

1.5 hours

 

7D2D and Ark are my two favorite games. I have around 4k hours in both. Ark is a great survival game, with an awesome endgame and many slider options to configure the game the way you like it.

[hotpoon]

And Ark. Its pretty common to die about 50 times the first few hours of that game.

 

Don't I know it. Damn compys. To be fair Ark doesn't have a death penalty though.

[Jedo]

Don't I know it. Damn compys. To be fair Ark doesn't have a death penalty though.

 

Neither does 7dtd in the first few hours (well, depending on how you play).

[MrMobius]

This will be the last post I make. Yes I said this before, but I actually had some sort of interest

The balance issues

I have not played enough of A17 to give more balancing issues, as I've only reached lvl 25, day 10. Thats why most of this is bound to the early game. (Also nothing with levelgates is mentioned because I hope they will remove that soon)

 

-block hp/zombie blockdmg

-spawnrate of ferals in pois/quests (should not appear before a certain gamestage, maybe not even before day 7)

-spawnrate of zombies in pois/quests

-too many guns

-nests are everywhere (900 feathers and 90+ eggs on day 9) burnt biome should not have any (or at least very very few) nests, because they all burnt and because you can see them so insanely well

-a "lucky gun find" early is worse then a crossbow. only perks make weapons viable.

-running takes too much stamina. I get why mining should take a lot, but stopping every 150 meters (non desert) to get a breather (even with lvl 1 perk) is just not enjoyable

-loot from zombies should be more frequent, and more specific to the killed zombie (hazmat guy dropped an ak... instead of hazmat clothes, nurse dropped water instead of healing...)

-loot in cars is absolutely insane. Got 20+ 7.65 bulltes on my very first car and more

 

I'm level 106 in my current playthrough. The focus of looting in the game is definitely changed: Guns are plentiful, but ammo is not. Brass is much easier to obtain, but lead is sparse. Far more difficult to obtain than gunpowder(via mining rocks). Given how many recipes require glue/duct tape, bones are a premium, so looking for roadkill and animals is a must. That said, I'll address your balance issues one by one:

 

-Block HP/zombie damage: Yes this is an issue, but not an insurmountable one. Spike traps do a substantial amount of damage, and they are relatively cheap to craft, so don't skimp on them. My friend and I live in a box base, completely surrounded by spikes and wandering hordes/chumps die very quickly on them. It will also deal very well with your first three horde nights, depending on game stage. If they die before getting near the blocks, then zombie block damage is not an issue.

 

-spawnrate of ferals in pois/quests: Honestly I haven't bothered with the quests, but I do POI's regularily. Yes, ferals are a very real threat. This is good, because regular zombies are just...not. That said, I don't think I would enjoy doing POI's in single player.

 

-too many guns: I actually like this. This is what you would expect in a zombie apocalypse: Many guns but little ammo left. Guns are an excellent source of mechanical parts and ammo. Once I get a decent one, I just scrap/sell any subsequent ones I find. You typically get a full reload of ammo from each one. If you are melee-ing generally (which we do), you end up with a nice cache of ammo in your base come horde night.

 

-nests are everywhere: Again, this is good, because before being able to find guns, feathers are a must for arrows, and bacon and eggs are a staple diet for a long time.

 

-a "lucky gun find" early is worse then a crossbow. only perks make weapons viable: At a low gamestage (depending on difficulty) guns should not be necessary. Invest some points in strength and sexual tyrannosaurus and melee is far better until you can invest some points in gun skills, at which point you will have enough ammo saved up to make the gun perks meaningful.

 

-running takes too much stamina: Rule 1, Cardio, and invest in agility. Find a nice base spot near a town and get used to walking, instead of running. It's not so bad once you get used to it. It's painful at the beginning, but eases off pretty quick.

 

-loot from zombies should be more frequent: I think that recently got buffed. Even so, sitting around farming zombies is not really how the designers really envisaged you playing the game. Go out and loot stuff. It's more interesting/exciting, and generally the reward is better.

 

-loot in cars is absolutely insane: Agreed. It's a fantastic source of brass(radiators), lead(batteries), coin(engines), and iron(raw, springs etc). If you need lead (and you will), and you aren't specced for miner69er, it's better than a full day mining. Getting ammo from cars is good too. I actually like this because I detest mining.

 

 

My main (and only real) gripe about A17 is the 30 minute death penalty: in the A17 update, they went from rewarding death avoidance (wellness system) to punishing death. From a game design perspective, I don't like punishing players; rewarding is a way better choice. At higher gamestages, the death penalty can(and does for me) lead to chain deaths, meaning you are better off sitting somewhere safe for half an hour, real time. It was so annoying, and detrimental to my gameplay experience, I ended up editing the XML files to reduce the duration to 5 minutes. If you die, having to travel several km to retrieve your gear, potentially unarmed and on foot, is punishment enough.

 

As a game mechanic, in essense, NearDeathExperience responds to your finding the game difficult, by making the game yet more difficult. One could make the argument of death reducing gamestage(and thus game difficulty), but this only applies if you are the character with the highest gamestage, or are playing in single player. In MP where you are the "second" character, it has no effect on gamestage, and as such, is not consistently reducing difficulty until the debuff is gone. Add to this that the debuff can make you temporarily unable to craft certain items due to the primary stat penalty, and it is seriously deleterious to gameplay experience.

[MrMobius]

This will be the last post I make. Yes I said this before, but I actually had some sort of interest still left and wanted to wait to see what A17.1 fixes (answer: not much)

 

 

The bad

-no gunparts. I hate that you now find guns in the whole and every gun does the same damage and quality was set from 600 to 6, which in turn scrambles progression. (*) It gave such a nice curve of progression and if they had just done what a lot of people suggested (stock improving stability,barrel accuracy, magazine how often reload is stuck, parts durability and all of them improve damage) they would have such a nice system. Now its a simple "gun or no gun!" and the only difference is how many mods I can install, which give dmg (yay. My weapon is now green, so it shoots harder! Yay my weapon now has a scope/laser so it shoots harder yay)

There was NO REASON to completely remove this awesome system, as it made every weapon unique and had a lot of potential.

-level gating. HOW. WHY. Who thought this is a good idea. Name me one game where levelgating helps the game and is not an obvious last resort to fix glaring progression issues (so no A16). No one who has studied gamedesign... hell no one who has played games regularly would think levelgating is a good idea in a SANDBOX SURVIVAL GAME (even for rpg/horror games)

Just don't. I gave you my examples on how to fix this without arbitrary levelrequirements... do with those what you want. But if you don't remove them, I will, for the first time in 7d2d, mod my xmls.

-performance. DAMN this is bad. I understand that it is EA experimental. But I cannot see how this could improve AT LEAST on the level that A16 was running (we were promised improvements on performance). Yes I have no doubt you will get this to work, but it still had to be said.

-progression. its all over the place. Leveling takes longer, better perks are gated behind level, but in the same breath I found an AK-47 and a shotgun with around 70 ammo on day 8. And since weapons are all the same, I'm already better off then I was in A16 on day 50.

-zombies. I like that they now are a threat. BUT. Their A.I. is way too straightforward, they rather sit there for 5 minutes to hit blocks on end, instead of taking the "free" route through the spikes that they don't even see. They must be psycic.

The conga line of wandering hordes are still gps trackers and are now slow as hell on daytime.

The spawning of zombies in pois (not talking about amount, thats for balancing) is cheaty. They are only there to surprise the player, which doesn't feel like this world is actually real, but that the devs just wanted to scare players. There could have been other ways to do that. Also playerdetection is super weird (*jumps* *atomic bomb explodes*).

-hitboxes. Has been talked about in this forums, but still: You should not only hit a zombie when he is in the little cross at the end of your swing. My sledgehammer should hit everything in front of me (at least depending in the swing). This way makes faster weapons a lot more forgiving, which feels bad, because I like the harder hitting ones. This could have been in bugs, because its so broken. Fix this.

-removal of stainless steel. Zombies got more dangerous. We need more endgame content. WHY WOULD YOU REMOVE and endgame item now? Especially since it was so super rare that you only had that day 100+ and even then without defenses this would crumble.

 

(*) if I have to find 4 parts and the chance is 1/50, the overall chance to find them is 1/200. But until then, i gradually progress, finding more and more parts, until I finally have the gun.

If I have to find 1 part and the chance is 1/200, for a long time I don't have anything to show for it, no plan to go to the trader to look for that last part... and suddenly BOOM. Completely functional, endgame AK-47.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will now deal with your bad points (due to character limit):

 

-no gunparts: I did like the gun parts from previous alpha builds, but even so, as a base builder crafter, I already have more than enough to deal with, so finding complete guns that require no additional work besides mods (which I really like), is a good thing.

 

-level gating. Yep, dumb. Stat gating is fine, and promotes character specialisation, which is by design, but level gating is not a great idea.

 

-performance: I'm seeing a lot of microstutters in the current build, but otherwise I find the performance quite playable, so long as I turn down advanced graphic effects, that are a resource hog. Like any game, if you want eye candy, pony up for a top end GFX card.

 

-progression: Some progression is weird, but is currently being worked on and tweaked. Generally I find it's pretty good, but it's not perfect.

 

-zombies: Yes, the AI is so dumb that it has no choice but to wail on blocks and always follow the path of least resistance. MadMole, pony up and hire a good AI programmer. A-Star pathfinding is only a small part of game AI.

 

-hitboxes: Hitboxes for melee has been MASSIVELY improved over A16. Also, there is a perk for sledgehammers (Heavy Metal), that cause power attacks to hit nearby enemies. Don't expect itemisation to do everything out of the box.