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My Vision on Improveing A17. Vol1

Mc Draken

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First and foremost... Happy New Year TFP!


Yeah... so. After more than 80hours into A17stbl, i must say, its an awesome game, Thanks for the christmass present, i loved it!


A17 is a huge improvement. I love the effects of most changes on gameplay. The attribute system works fine. The new quest/dungeon based gameplay is awesome. Altough there are some polishing has to be made, and i think some parts need even more revision. But you are already signed you are aware of this.


Im trying to be compact and dense, not hitting 10k characters this time. But i will probably fail...


Edit. I failed. 50k characters, i will cut them into multiple chapters. 🙄



Lets start with the small ones, and blast the foundations later. As i see, its pretty weird there is three separate skill on melee weapon types, but technically only one or two actual weapon. Im at day 60~ and im using the advanced weaponry of a piece of wood with a lil scrap around it, called iron club. Im using it from lvl3. I think, there should be a potentially endgameish version of it. A steel batton. Or a steel bbbat. Anything, just give it some way to progress further. Also a steel Maul as a high grade heavy weapon with a claymore as heavy blade. Machete is fine, maybe a little weak as the only steel grade, proper melee.


Steel Axe altough is an awesome weapon, i love it! But well... it destroys loot and stuff on misses.



Let Dyes be craftable. Modding is fantastic. But relying on total RNG is always a dangerous move. Look, we were on day 18 and not found a mod, even with multiple working stiff and garages looted. We are on day 60 and i cant craft a Chem station, becouse we found only one beaker. Its a joke. No scope till lvl 70. While luck is an important factor to give looting a thrill, its a bitch sometimes. As a 4 pl team, its hard to get reasonable amount of mods.

I think, there should be some base mods that gives progression reliably.

The best candidates to base mods, are dyes. They give dmg, so means progression. Also the point of paints is the customization value. If i want to be pink, let me be pink without relying on RNG.


Another candidate for base mods are spiked and barbed upgrades for clubs. They should unlock on iron and steel skills, and grant extra dmg proper to their respective material on top of base mod dmg. An upgrade to bows, like reinforced limbs, that gives durability and the base extra dmg as every mod.

So provide some base mods, acquirable trough crafting.


But to be honest, i absolutely cant see the point of the new blueprint system for mods. I mean, obviously, i get it as a player. If i purchase the skills, i can turn schematic into mods... well into ONE mod. I guess the character wraps the mod into the schematic, thats why it gets used up in the process. But still, i can get more mods. But as a game mechanic, its pointless. Lets make it more comprehensive.


But to be honest, leta be professional 😁, rework it...



So, scrap the idea of schematic as ingredients. It drives nowhere.

Lets Keep the reliability of crafting, letting the player to get some core progression, but keeping the thrill of looting on advanced stuff, and the uniqueness of special mods. So... heres the idea:


Tier one mods are core, low-tech mods, craftable from scrap, unlocked by some base skill, like Engineer lvl1. These are some base stuff, about one per weapon to spread it out.

Dyes, Structural brace for tools, Reinforced limbs for bows, Sawed off barrel, a low-tier 2x scrap scope, tier one armor mods, bags, gravedigger, woodsplitter, bunker buster, etc. Most current T1 mods, that makes sense to craft from brains. Burning shaft must be tier 1. Its the lowest form of combat light, since its melee.


(Weapon light should be tier 1 too. Its a flashlight strapped on a gun. Also i like to see in games even before lvl 80. While burning shaft should be cheap, weapon lights require an actual gun, and a flashlight, scrap electronics(wrench), forged iron(forge skill). So while its still Tier 1, its still harder to acquaire, due to materials. Actually, You can use even steel as a T1 mod ingredient for higher lvl mods that gives core progression. Lets say, Spiked club. Make it a T1 mod, craftable freely, but require 15 steel. That way the player reliably can acquire a mod of core progression, but still have to get 15 steel. (Luck, 1500duke, or steel smithing). Thats an awesome game mechanic, with a lot of methods to balance it out, while gives the player multiple methods to get mid lvl stuff reliably. Also as i suggested, make resource gathering mods like gravedigger T1, so freely craftable, but require forged iron or steel, so its still costs much to craft.)


Tier 2 are advanced mods, reproduceable with the tools of a skilled character, but not without schematics. But with the old blueprint system. Read it once to unlock the mod, then reproduce it. Most current tier 2 mods, maybe spikes(T1better), current T2 armor mods, silencer(its enough if silencer wont give dmg, reducing it is too much. Its not as strong as you would think to justify that dmg price), polymer string, 4-6x scope, handmade glow/ironsight(as a reliable midgame reflex sight), polymer/solid stock for guns/xbow, duckbill(pls, make a vertical duckbill), flash hider, chokes, long barrel, long recurved limbs for bows that reduce draw, but increase dmg greately for endgame bow potency, iron buster pick, HEADLAMP, etc...


(Headlamp. Pls, dammit dont use headlamps as a endgame stuff. Using "quality of life" stuff as endgame tier is darn cheap of a game design. I love to see whats in front of me. Yeah, "use mining helmet, and sacrefice armor hurrdurr". Ty no. Just let the player see, without forcing mining helmet on everyone. But yeah if weapon lights and burning shaft should be T1, headlamp is fine at T2. The point is, always grant a way to see in combat, without sacreficing player choice much, pls)


Tier 3 are the special military or hightech stuff. Stuff that simply are not reproduceable by the tools of the player character. Only lootable, buyable. Laser sight, T3 armor mods, advanced supressor that rise dmg as other mods, magnifyable 8x scope, reflex sight, night vision scope, nightvision modul on helmets, advanced long barrels that gives extra dmg without hipfire nerf, retractible stock, you name it. They will be the TREASURE of the game.


That system would be a lot better than the current. Pls guys.



There is a huge gap in progression, before lvl 20 in tool quality. Getting even basic iron tools before lvl 20 is basically RNG. That feels so damn bad. Its ok, if you want to slow down mining, but to totally halt it... pls no. Heres a solution. Theres a starter tier of tools. Ok. Stone hatchet, wood club. And theres a special, unique item, thats made of scrap. The Iron Club. And while club has a different problem(lacking a successor) its good. Its a cool middleground between forged stuff and starter club. But tools... you are forced to use a stonehatchet up to lvl 20 without luck. Jeez, why? Lets apply the same middle ground for tools too. Scrap iron stuff. Crude, ♥♥♥♥ty but specialized iron tools made from scrap. Scrap hatchet, scrap pick, scrap spade. As construction tool, stone hatchet is fine, but a scrap mallet is nice too. This additional middle ground have a lot of advantages.


1, Since the player can reliably get ♥♥♥♥ty but proper tools, you can even rise the level req and value of forged iron stuff, enlongering progression. They can be even lvl 30 stuff, since the player wont suffer from stone hatchet fever till then.


2, it can be the first lvl of forge and hammer, at lvl 5, making the skill tree not so messy.


So, first rank at lvl5, makes you able to craft scrap iron tools by hand. Also cloth armour.


Rank 2 at lvl15 lets u build a forge, and forging your own forged iron. (Also if you give scrap tools a bigger iron cost, like 200 per item, the player probably get them only by melting ore in forge and casting scrap, meaning a forge is actually useful to get the Tier 1 scrap tools, meaning bigger progression then before, making the forge worth more then currently at low level even without iron tools. Lets you craft leather armour(old hide armour) and scrap armour.


Rank 3 at lvl 30 lets you able to craft iron tools.


Rank 4 at lvl 50 lets you craft crucible, forged steel, iron armor, stutted leather (current leather) armor from forged iron fittings and leather. (Leather armour looks pretty advanced, it will be fine as high lvl light armour. Looks on par woth iron armor.)


Rank 5 at lvl 80 lets you craft steel tools, steel armor and military armour.

(Dont fear to let military armor craftable at "low" lvl, just make it require hefty military fibers, and getting them will be the level cap you need. Crafting military fiber is fine at lvl 80+.)


3, you can make steel tools even better, since they technically become one tier better too.


Yeah generally it would replace the old iron tools, putting all other material one tier higher. Not that creative, but lvl20 with a stone hatchet is too much.



Okay, thats a system, that prevents to get trash quality stuff from advanced items, somewhat keeping your loot relevant, and realistic. Iron tools are minimum 2, steel 3, chainsaw 4. Compound bow, pistol, hunting rifle 2, shotgun, mp5 etc are 3 and so on. That prevents to get cheap t1 military helmet for 200dukes getting fiber, and prevents to find t1 marksman rifles and 44magnums that are a source of ammo at best.


I will suggest a system that keeps weapon loot relevant.


Also i think we should lower the loot chance of guns with these changes. It would be better to make em relevant but more scarce, then spam T1 grey scrapguns. We have garanteed weapons, proper guns should be rare. You know.. Treasure of the game.


Continued in vol2.

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My Vision on Improveing A17. Vol2


Volume 2.



Crossbows are bad. They require lots of skills like run n gun to work somewhat. They hit-to-kill is nearly the same on most levels and difficulties as bows, even if bows are far superior. Even fully modded, bows perform way better booth skilled/modded or not. Cb needs a slight dmg buff, to keep its oneshot potential against the avarage enemy on most gamestages. Letting it underperform on lategame, is a huge waste of potential playstyle, since its the only crossbow of the game. Its unique. Keep it relevant as long as you can for a more colorful gameplay.



The same. Its no matter how cheap, how low level, etc. If it cant kill trashmobs with oneshot, at the moment you get it, its useless. Pls, its a melee range, oneshot, slow and clunky cannon. Even if you give it overperforming damage, we will never find out, becouse its balanced by its nature. Its an unwealdy trash, but extreamly fun and stylish. Give this thundering cannon a huge RAW power. It will be fine. Maybe 30 stamine cost to fire it? It kicks i guess...



The new system works fine. But. Pls, create some buffer space. Its punishing, when you lose 10% stamina becouse you are only at 90% food. I wont eat, my meal fills 40+ food. Why i have to suffer with 2/3 stamina, if i want to not waste my food.

Thats a design, thats rewards nothing. Its a bad design. Make stamina reduction to kick in at 70%, and linearly sink after that. Or make it 90%, (early food fills 10) and provide a skill at fortitude, that reduces this gate by 10% per level. When maxed, it reduces it to 40%. So players arent suffer from reduced stamina, even at only 40% hunger.


FOOD/WATER ICON. pls guys, two small icons, that changes colors at every 25% from white to red. You dont even need a bar or something. Pls...



A singleuse dartpistol that shoots healing darts.

A Proper dartgun with syringe ammo.

A special Crossbow bolt, that heals.

Anything, that is ranged and phisicians or what... call them medics.. can heal with. Maybe that should be the spec ammo for a new crossbow. Ohh yeah, almost forgot...



Chu-ko-nu. General Zhuge's legacy to mankind. It would be an incredible candidate to the position as a high-end xbow. It would be unique, not just a stronger xbow variant. Also it would be able to spam a cheap ammo with medium dmg. Its a semi-auto xbow with low-medium power like bows, but a 8-12 magazine of bolts. The original chukonu is a lever load-and-fire single action weapon, i think a more modern design, a pump action or a separate lever loader with trigger would be more realistic, also easier to animate(shotgun animation). I think its a much needed weapon.



Okay, thats a weird one. Im obviously happy that i can craft guns i need. But as a game design... ehh. The fact i can craft the most advanced weapons, makes looting feel impotent. I think, we should be able to craft midgame firearms, but only loot high end stuff. But its required to give the player the ability to improve proper guns. Heres my deal:


1, gun crafting. I dont think the player should be able to craft proper guns. Proper guns are the only stuff next to mods, the players are looking and looting for. They should be the treasure of the game. The big step. Proper guns should not be made from scratch.


2, mid-tech alternative. While we cant craft proper guns, we can already craft a crude, clumsy cannon, the blunderbuss. With some dmg buff, its perfect. Its the perfect candidte as a player-made weapon. Crude, skill-dependant, uses mostly renewable ammo, but powerful enough to be brought to battle with effect.

But it needs some friends. I already suggested a mid range, bullet version, a Musket, or Arquebuse. And a quick-fire version, a flintlock pistol. These 3 weapons would provide a perfect alternative as a gunpowder weapon reliably given to a midlvl player trough crafting, remaining useful trough the whole game becouse their sheer dmg and cheap ammo, but preserving the thrill of the looting of superior, proper guns. It requires minimal work, just a new barrel for the musket, we have the animation, the assets. Do it. Ohh, and make it fire iron instead of stone. (Lead is for proper ammo)


3, ammo. I dont think steel ammo is a good idea. But its a cheap solution to make guns able to use cheap ammo. Well actually Turret spammers had only problems with ammo, so it does not solved anything. I think its a lot better idea to grant the suggested cheap black-powder guns(blunderbuss, musket), but give back proper ammo it's edge. Make them precious again, becouse they are the only food, your proper guns are feeding on. You can craft them, but they arent cheap, Requiring specific mats.


3, Ability to improve Guns. While i think, the player should not be able to craft guns from scratch, i think its fine to be able to improve existing ones. Lets Add an existing piece to the ingredient list of firearms. If i found a marksman rifle, its fine to have the knowledge of improveing it up to my current tech lvl if i bought the proper perks. Maybe add 2 required piece of guns. That way looting gun has relevance, but the player can craft guns of his tier. Cool.


4, general crafting prices. Pls, the AK is an overall better gun then the marksman rifle. It has nearly the same hit/kill, the same effective accuracy in most scenarios(pois, base def), superior dps, mag size, full auto mode, hip fire accuracy. AK should be more expensive to craft.

Hunting rifle (and other lowtech guns)should not require 34 steel. If i got 34 steel, i can probably produce it, and i have better guns. Make it require 5steel (guns are made of steel, so required, but reqs only 5, meaning i can buy it or get it from other means) and like 40 forged iron, making the bulk of the iron cost comes as forged iron, and not steel. That way we can keep its resource cost, its realism of requiring steel, but keeping the recipe relevant by being fillfullable at a level when the gun is still relevant at. So even if you wont keep my cohesive suggestion list, at least apply this.



While steel ammo and gun crafting is nice, i think it dulls the edge of the thrill of finding proper firearms, or generally looting. As a lvl 90 character, guns totally lost their preciousness. Give them back, while still solve the problems.


These changes Coupled with my mod-crafting changes would provide a solid base for progression on core items, while keeping the thrill of looting and questing.



Actually, we probably need another handmade, cheap, midgame gun. It would be small caliber, oneshot, boltaction rifle, so... a hunting rifle. (I will suggest to buff the hunting rifle later by giving it a 5round mag, and buffing marksman rifle mag to 10 round later on.) But it uses 9mm ammo, and can be handmade at Engineer rank 2(?). If the musket is not for the Pimps' taste.


Also as A17 is out, i have to repeat these suggestions with increased relevance.



A17 is about tunneling and slaying zeds. This game cries for a mounted machinegun. Okay it would be too much... but if we make them midgame, craftable, juryrigged trash guns, that are somewhat powerful, cheap enough to slay thousands with, but immobile, only good for defense?


T1, Ballista: its a big mounted ballista, that shoots common crossbow bolts (or larger harpoons?) But with higher power and slow, but semiauto reload. Its the cheapest mounted gun, but it keeps its relevance becouse of its dmg per shot and accuracy. Can be upgraded with a scope?


T2, Swievel Gun: Its a mid-caliber, solidshot mounted cannon. Slooow fire rate, a lot weaker than a RPG, has low AoE range due to shrapnels, but shoots cheap ammo for its power.


T2, Broadsider: Its a big, fixed cannon with 15° of firing angle. It can be triggered trough electricity for trap usage.


T3, Spiker Machinegun: Its the highest tech, its a pneumatic fullauto, fastfiring, medium accurate machinegun that requires electricity to work, but uses the cheap Darts of the other trap. Its kind of cheap for its power, but still a lot weaker than proper guns. But hey... its still an MG after all...


They are all weaker to outpace proper guns, but cheap for their power and craftable. Their biggest drawback is, they are limited to their placement.


They all have their special purpose, the sniper, the bomber, the MG. I think these are well made additions to a great game. Especially in A17.



Nothing groundshaking, but you guys already have the mechanics for these. So they are two spotlights. Searchlight, is an actual turret, it detects and tracks targets, but instead of a gun, its wielding a spotlight raining light on them from afar. Has full 360° detection angle, cant be set.

Reflector is a high-power spotlight actually made from... not trashcans. Has the power of A16 spotlights.



Continued in Vol3

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My Vision on Improveing A17. Vol3


Vol 3.





Okay, so... Perception and Strength are the two base combat perk. You MUST kill Zeds to survive. You do it by either melee or ranged, so investing in either skill is nearly mandatory, but pretty self explaining at least.

INT is a base attribute that generally dictates the level of technology the team or the solo player has. You can play without it, but its like tieing your hands back. And thats perfect.

But what about Agi and Fort? They are special. They arent mandatory, they are not baseline attributes. You can kill zeds just fine without them in either melee or ranged. You can avoid dmg just fine. They are only Enchancing, reinforcing your choosen playstyle. They have perks, that provides a safety net in either way you are playing. Fortitude in defensive, and Agility in an offensive way. Fortitude should be about defending yourself and your team. Taking hits, leading a charge, defending allies, recovering and using the damage taken to inspire revenge.


Agility on the other hand, grants a general finesse on whatever you are doing. You are streamlined. Anything you do, you do it quick. It grants you a safetynet by being more elusive. You hit/build/repair/run/swim/climb/sneak faster and you have more energy to feed this speed.


So if we can agree on these, lets make some changes and add some new stuff.



So... i guess these are under fortitude, becouse of why not. But i think farming should be under inteligence. Usually the crafter/builder tends the garden, and solo players are probably invested into INT at a high chance. Farming, as a technically "must have" talent should not be in an otherwise optional attribute. Even if farming kind of works without skills, its still better under Int, then pushed into an otherwise almost totally combat-based and even kindof specialized perktree. Heres the deal:

Put living off the land into Int. Put Charismatic nature into Fortitude. Let me explain:

Fortitude characters are usually tanks, and tanks are the best leaders. They go forehead, leading the group, people around them. Its ultimately fitting to buff their party. Rename the skill to something based on leading and encouraging a group in battle. Bravehearth is cool. Or... similar.

Dont get me wrong, Charismatic nature is cool at Int, but provides more uniqeness to furtitude. I got the concept, the Int guy is a support, providing stats and better heal, but Fortitude is more "purposehungry".

Alternatively, keep Charismatic nature, and give Forty a new perk, with Str and Perception(so technically pure dmg). So Bravehart grants pure dmg to allies, fitting for a tank character.


Huntsman should go into Agility. Hunting is tied with sneaking upon, and chasing prey. I think its themed for agility. Agility has the least useful perks imo, huntsman will be well placed there.



Instead of huntsman, a new Fortitude perk, Berserker. You deal more melee dmg and stamina regen, the lower your health. Only works for 12sec after getting hit. Its fortitude, becouse it requires most other fortitude perks to work properly, and fits in terminology. The getting hit part requires to prevent usage out of combat, by artifically lowering own heath. Also compensates for heavy armorers stamina hunger.



Forty perk. Rises the aggro of zeds towards you the more health you got. Its an inteligent taunt perk, that gradually switches off while nearing death, lowering its suicidal factor. Every Tank needs a Taunt. If you cant force them to choose you to bite instead of your puny allies, your toughness is a waste. (Axe approves!)



I think it should add up to 30% extra heal from any source as a bonus. That way, it speeds up any form of recovery, not just provide the passive heal. Works well with Pharmacy, but Pharmacy is still better in coop, and still more effective in solo at what it does.

But the point of the suggestion, is to make the perk cool booth in coop and solo. It really shines if someone with pharmacy heals the whole party, and you can reduce the extra weight of your health pool, making him heal you easier. I dont think it would be op. Also gives bonus to food heal too.



The suggested perk, that would reduce the gate where hunger starts to reduce stamina.


Since theres no room for perks, if you add all my suggestion (a dream would come true), maybe just add it to Slow Metabolism. Actually the term totally describes the effect, and i dont think it would make it op. Only one point(u can add even on lvl 1), would rise your hunger-gate to 20%, a totally workable level trough the game, while investing in fortitude would obviously keep its worth.



Agility perk. Remove SexTrex's bonus effect. Its good enough without it. Stamina on kill is an incredible asset, worthy of a dedicated perk. Adrenalin Surge gives 10 stamina per rank on each kill. Gives half for ranged kills. Its okay we dont get stam regen. But stamina on kill gives a huge edge of endurance for agi players in offense, they can start playing their role early.



While its okay under Str, it would mean a LOT more under Agi. FoB alone, could give Agi the dedicated purpose to make it a combat enchancing perk. It could grant Agi the role in skill-mixing to be combined with Str for an offensive attribute.


While Str mixed with Fort makes you a Brawler make and take hits like a truck, Str combined with Agi makes you Bruce Lee. Hit hard AND Fast with fuel to feed the speed. Agi NEEDS Furry of Blows to gain its purpose. To be worthy to pick it, over Forty. If someone wants to be booth Strong, Enduring AND Fast, he has to take all three attributes, not just two.


Also FoB speeds up everything, mining, repair, harvest, anything. It should be under Agility. Probably buff FoB to 6%per rank from 5, or grant Agi a separate 1% attackspeed per rank. (Just how Str correlates with M69r in block dmg)



I wish to separate them more even in their perks. To give them their true edge, not just a bipolar copy of eachother. To give them a real purpose and face trough mechanics.

Heavy armor is awesome. Its godlike at its role, feels just like in gameplay as it should. A slumbering Tank and the perk reflects ENDURANCE, Armor and Durability. It shouts "hit me, i dont care, i wont run! Come if you dare!" into the zeds face. Even your Armor itself ♥♥♥♥s on damage 😁 Cool.

But i would buff it up to 60% armor.


Light armor perk on the other hand... is the same, even if the Armor itself should reflect an entirely different feel of gameplay. Light Armor is more like "i can take a hit... but i dont want to". It shouts "Hit me if you Can" and not "Hit me if you dare" as Heavys. The perk should reflect these, to show its difference from heavy armor. And thats where im strong, providing a feel of gameplay trough game mechanics. Heres my sugestion:

Rename Light Armor perk into Armored Finess. It should only add up to only 30% extra armor, and instead of durability it lowers movementspeed hinderence and stamina penalty to zero at max rank.


That way, Light armor, if invested in, provides some armor, while not hindering movespeed. Without skill, they booth provide some armor and hinder movement linearly. But skill progression makes heavy armours a true brute compared to light, with nearly double the armor. Light armor skill on the other hand makes you on par in mobility with clothing IF invested in, while granting you *some* free armour. That way light armour isnt just a ♥♥♥♥tier alternative to heavy armour at high level, (since the current skill linearly keeps the gap between light and heavy armors as it progresses, granting heavy armour immense armour for the same penalty as before, light gets the same rate of increase for the same penalty as before, making light better without skill, and heavy better if invested in), but gains its own edge and becomes better where light armour is already better. At speed. See? The perk should enchance the attribute where the armor class shines. Dont compare it to an armorless character and say "nah, you are just removing a balancing effect of armor hinderance" instead compare it to a non skilled light armor user. What he gains from the perk itself? Yeah, speed. Thats what Agility means. That way booth light and heavy armor users become a lot better if invested in, but in different, unique ways.


Also, i think Agi should provide 1.5% movement and sprint speed per rank on its own


So, lets see. What would Agi provide with this rework? Stamina, hit-speed(melee dps, easier combos, repair, mining, harvest, etc), stamina gain per kill, parkour, meat gain, some armor, swim speed, Sprint time. And what else...


Fortitude would provide hunger gate, bigger water and hunger bar, (on par with huntsman), HP, tons of armor, booth personal defense and a defender for the whole party, effect(stun) and temperature resist(thats a HUGE factor, while Agi users cant get much weather resist due to wearing of armour, they have to sacrefice it, to get clothing. While Forty users can tot full Steel even in a snowstorm), killing power in clutch situations trough Berserker meaning extra survivability, and whatnot.


I think they are on Par. I wish to see these changes.




Continued in vol4

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My Vision on Improving A17. Vol4


Volume 4.



My biggest problem is the specialization skills into certain weapons. They are bad in my opinion.

1, They are big, messy wall of texts(ohh the irony), all giving reload and stuff. They are overcomplicated for no reason.


2, They require to spend points for each weapon instead of each talent, like aim speed or reload speed.


3, They are a bad design decision with no room for improvement. Since they are working based on categories like shotguns, rifles, automatics, handguns etc. What if you want to add an A12 auto shotgun? It would be auto or shotgun? A Mac10? Handgun or automatic? Sawed off shotgun? Why the hell are you tying your own hands? Get rid of it.


4, while people like the option to "specialize" into one gun trough one skill, its a lie. The system inherently supports and encourages the player to buy most perks in the tree. Since ranking attribute costs more and more points, the most cost effective is to specialize into one attribute and keep spending there, since perks all cost one per rank.


5, specializing into specific weapon types lose its edge just after buying the perk for the second weapon type. But buying two separate Talents, like aimtime or reload speed, gives more opportunity and keeps it whole game.


6, It feels bad i cant really try out weapons, because i'm required to specialize from scratch again. The moment i'm holding a new gun, i technically lose my perk points, even if im specced into ranged weapons. Thats a bad design.


7, if i want to spec into ranged weapons, and i can choose to either want to spec into specialized ranged perks or general ranged perks, i want general ones. It simply offers free swapping of guns, resulting more colorful gameplay. Also, while category based skills give larger freedom on effects since they are exclusive to the gun, general talents are naturally better for some guns, but still remain useful for others. Like recoil reduction goes well for automatics, but still remain good for semis. The player can decide he needs it or not, without having to read "its for shotguns mate".


8, Boom headshot and Run n Gun are amazing. I can clearly decide i want it or not, and i'm still profit from it if i think im no longer think they are most profitable for my current gun. If i spec into bows and get bored of it, i technically lost the skill points. And while that's obvious between different skill trees, yeah if bought melee perks, i cant use them if i switch to a bow. But within a skill-tree, i think they should not be mutually exclusive, or on a mimal scale.


9, the only positive about weapon-specialized perks is, if i like only ONE weapon, i can get most out of it by ranking one perk early. Or well, would be, if you could rank it up at low level. But you cant, because it requires spending most your points on attribute. Also you will need the best perk, Boom Headshot. Buying the wanted perk is minimal investment compared to that. Letting the player buy needed perks continually, and rise attribute when needed is a lot better and follows other trees' approach of it. Also gives a healthier progression.


So, my suggestion: General talents, like Run n gun!


Edit: tldr.: While in the previous patch, it was cool to have specialized perks that build on top of the "learn by doing" skill, becouse its built on focusing on the item you are using. Altough, Its not so great on an attribute system, that actually works with point investments. It should not be filled with mutually exclusive perks within a skilltree, it should be multiplicatively better to develop a whole attribute branch.



For the chance based dismember, add a separate skill. Boom headshot is the best skill in the branch even without it. Also the instakill strong enough to be a separate perk on its own, with slight changes. Lets space them out.





(Running Reload and Hipfire together covers enough, to make the skill profitable for all guns.)


So, instead of archer, rifle, handgun, shotgun and automatic specializations, i offer these five general talents.



Grants reload and draw speed for ranged weapons. Also slight fire rate for manual loaded weapons. (Pump, bolt, lever)


(Reload speed is godly on most weapons. It doesn't need else to justify the skill points spent, if needed. Fire rate buff helps these usually lower tier stuff to keep up better.)



Gives Aiming speed and effective range for ranged weapons.

Rank 3, 4, 5, Focus. Aiming fully gives 10-15-20% ranged dmg for the next shot.


(While at first glance, its for marksman weapons, but in reality mostly you want to aim and place your shots in this game with most guns. So Aim speed helps all guns greatly. Focus is just a good gimmick for snipers.)



Consecutive headshots give 15% ranged dmg for 12 seconds. Stacks up to 2-3-4-5-6 times. Missing cancels it.

Rank 5 perk: Maffia Style. Shots to the Torso while the perk is active stuns for 1 sec(not knockdown), but counts as a miss and cancels stacking.


(While at first glance, its for spammy guns to build dmg quick, but actually it provides just enough extra dmg for rifles and shotguns, that they can easily chain one shot kills even on bigger targets.


The perk, while may not be obvious, provides the ability to do Hearth and Brain combos easily while sacrificing the stacked dmg. After the first headshot, you can do "one into the hearth, another into the head" executions. Body shot stops them letting you headshot, headshot enables another body-stun letting you hit the head again. Its strong, requires quick target switching, but enables you to stunlock big, lonely targets with fast guns or make them stop for a sure killshot from a rifle or .44. Also maffia style is cool as hell 😎)



Shooting the head of a target that is under 30-35-40-45-50% health, dismembers them.


(Instead of the dismember chance of Boom Headshot. This is better, its controlled, and skill based. Lets leave the RNG for casinos pls.

Its a strong Bosskiller perk for rifles, and an insane dmg buff for fast guns. Also constant HEADPOPPING! cool.)



Increases ranged wep. durability by 20% and Weapon Handling slightly per rank.

Become one with your guns. You care for him, He cares for you.


(Recoil control and durability is godly for automatics, but a fine addition for any gun really)


DIVINE LIGHTS. (The explosive perk. Any name really)

All explosive dmg has 15% extra knockdown chance. All fire effects has 25% longer duration.

Focused Blast. At Rank 3, all explosives and molotovs do no block dmg within Claimed area.

Cleansing flames. At max rank, all fire and explosive dmg cancels Radiation regen


(Jeez. How could you miss that one? I want flying Zombies. Use your own strength, the game got the most fun factor it ever had, trough physics. Those Home Runs with zombie heads, those fence-hits with birds... i want grenade-propelled zombies. Alsi, aoe knockdown is obvious utility for Explosives.

Since the base perk isn't so strong, its a good way to give place for two perks, that are significant upgrades for explosives. Regen disable gives enormous utility, while block-protection provides free usage under sieges. Booth are well needed additions for these weapons, without boosting dmg directly.)


See? Reload speed, aimspeed, control, etc. One for each perk, not all for each weapon.


If you truly spend into Perception, your skills will multiply each other as they should be, not additively drop another piece into your gunpool.


(I dont think all these perks are OP together. The difficulty usually comes from simply your ability to score heads. Boom headshot is op on its own. But this suggested skill tree offers more tools to have fun with and make gunplay more colorful and feel you can be truly a master of guns.




A great way to keep weapons unique, even with the suggested perk changes, is to give them unique perks or slight stat boosts. Give Shotguns inherent knockdown chance, 10% critical strike to 9mm, bleed for smg, headshot bonus to hunting rifle, 10 extra dmg per hit on target for marksman rifle. Armor destroy for AK, dismember on headshot for RPG, slow or stun on headshot for the .44. Double sneak attack for the bow, 10% slow for each arrow stuck for the compound bow, knockdown on headshot for the xbow. Or anything else... This would help distinguish guns better without messing up the Skill system. Also keeps em unique even if they are from the same category.



Give it a mag! I think hunting rifle really underperforms due to the changes to movement while reloading. All oneshot weapon suffers from this change, and while it fits a crossbow or the blunderbuss(and a musket) since they convert cheap ammo into huge dmg(or should), Hunting rifle is a proper gun, firing 7.62 cartridge. Compared to Marksman R., Its kind of balanced due to its low DPS but low tier and high dmg, but the one shot/reloading factor is unnecessary. Make the Hunting Rifle a proper, Solid-clip-fed Bolt Action Rifle. 4 or 5 ammo in the clip. Long, one by one chamber-loading reload procedure, to keep the current animation, and make it balanced compared to Marksman Rifle. It still has slow fire rate due to being bolt action, but at least wont slow your movement after each shot, even if has a long reload at the end. That's a necessary buff for this gun. Also a slight dmg may work too.


Continued in Vol 5.


Edits on hunting rifle and perception tldr.

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My Vision on Improveing A17. Vol5


Volume 5.



There are two guns that has no direct successor in the game, even tough they are signature zombie killer weapons. Only one piece of shotgun and .44 is not enough. I know, any one could spam a thousand guns he wish to see in the game, but these are justified by the lack of progression in the category. Shotgun is amazing, even tough its low level gun. I think it should be buffed slightly, and put at higher level. Add a Double Barrel as a lowtier shotgun. That way shotgun fanatics get some feel of progression.


As for .44 i would love a .44 lever action Brush Gun. Medium fire rate, 12round mag, high dmg, low range. So the properties of the magnum pistol round. It would be a straight upgrade to the handgun, but with the characteristics of a rifle, so the pistol keeps its relevance.


9mm Revolver. Theres no high dmg gun for the 9mm ammo. Obviously its dirt cheap, so it quickly becomes imbalanced, if you can convert it to high dmg per shot trough a gun. But a revolver is perfect to balance that out, and actually realistic too. A single action(?)revolver that uses 9mm ammo with slightly higher dmg than the semiauto, but balanced by the gimmicks of a revolver would be awesome.

Theres room for a semi auto shotgun, or even full auto, but the pumper works fine to be honest.



Nothing better than pummeling zeds to death. But 3 specialized perks... why? Clubs, heavy and bladed? Steel axe is heavy or bladed? Ahh pls... forget that in attribute based skilltrees.


The weapons should have inherent properties, dont need skills to be involved. Machetes have dismember, knife bleeeds, clubs stumble, sledge knocks, pick destroys armor, axe slows or crits or whatever. Skills should add additions for melee not for specific weapons. Dont narrow down the spectrum of the playstyle.


Instead of the 3 specific weapon skill, add these:


STAY DOWN: You do 50% increased power attack dmg per rank on knocked down targets.

Rank4 perk: Execution: power attack on stunned target under 30% hp kills them. A weaker Coup d grace, but kinda easier to execute.


Thats it. Works with all melee. Its inherently better for clubs and sledges, becouse they should have high knockdown while Machetes should not knock reliably. No need to limit to specific weaps.



Power attacking do 30-40-50-60-70% dmg to all nearby enemies. Bigger the weapon, bigger the area.

Rank5: Power attacking also applies the weapon's effect(bleed, knock) chanche on them.



Consecutive hits on the target deal 10% extra dmg, up to 5stacks at rank 5. (1 stack per rank)


I think they are better and cool.


Instead of Furry of blows:



3 normal attacks in quick succession gives 50% extra damage per rank for your next power attack.


One extra to fill the last slot at STR:



Every melee hit you make, gives 6% dmg and 3% stamina regen for 10seconds. 5 second extra duration per rank. Stacks up to 30 times, but getting hit removes stacks.

Rank 5 provides backward sprint for 1seconds after powerattacking.


Fitting for a Agi melee, rewarding evasive fencing with zeds.


These are my skill suggestions, they would be amazing and enchancing eachother.







Tldr, I suggest changing the hordenight setting to X / player and 1/2X for each member of the party. Also a 3 or 5 second respawn time for zeds. So we can fend off zeds if we play well, not just pile up the same zeds over and over while they break trough due to instant respawn. But to be honest, i would not stop here. You are so close to a balanced game. Make it real.




You are so close with the new AI to make an extreamly fun, tower defense, adventure, dungeon crawling, survival, openworld and whatelse game. Pls do it. Make it thrive. And im here, offering suggestions after many hours of thinking and testing and typeing thousands of lines, simply becouse i had so much fun trough the years. I love this game. Lets put in the last nail of grandness.


Im suggesting to change hordenights into a bit more complex, but quality addition to the tower defense part of the game. Fixing the number of zeds under Hordenights has many improvements over this current zombie-spam.


With the current AI the Zombies are a threat. They are siegeing you, and you have to face them. There are some abuses, like using doors as bridges, or other AI weaknesses. If the player willing to give up the XP there are more cheaty solutions like swimmin around, drivin around or whatelse. But generally if the player plays like a man and fights them, they are a threat even in mediocre numbers.


Killer traps actually lost a lot of their purpose.

Spikes and blades are killing fast. Thats a problem. Yeah, it is. Zombie runs up, gets nailed, no XP, respawns, runs up again till no spikes. Killer traps are bad at holding off zombies, they are only good as a last line of defense, where xp doesent matter, just to survive. But even there, they worth not much. Simply becouse their killcount doesent matter, since zeds respawn instantly. Barbed wire and electric fence are awesome, but killer traps...


It would be a solution if traps would net shared XP, so they killcount at least matter, and the player profits from it. But it would make zombie grinders a powerleveling tool, causing another problem. The only solution is Fix Zombie Count.


I tought over many versions, like a dinamic system that sends in zeds in waves and spawns a new when the previous fought of. Or one that continously sends in zeds, calculating spawn numbers by dividing remaining time with zombie number had to spawn, and etc etc... The best one, thats easy to script and has all the pros of the best options is this:


Every 7th day a fix number of zeds siege the player. Maximum 6 waves. A wave in each hour. 22-23-...-3.

Lower gamestages has lower number of waves.

The new wave is spawned regardless of the previous is alive or not.

Maximum zombie count can be set, but simply to limit performance issues.

Each horde has a zombie count, started at X and goes up each 7th day.

Zombies have a cost to spawn. Greens, specials, ferals cost more from the max zombie count.

On higher gamestages the chance to spawn specials is higher, and due to that, the cost per zombie goes up, and horde numbers down.

This mechanic forces the game to spend Horde number to quality over quantity, therefore lowering zombie numbers, while keeping the increasing difficulty of the later Hordes. Better performance, but harder waves....


Many pros...


1, progress of the battle. If the players fight zeds well, they can be fought off and pushed back.


2, rewards defensive OR offensive play.


3, you can add special waves, even boss fights later.


4, killer traps become actually useful. Since every killed zombie helps you survive, not getting replaced infinitely.


5, players can set difficulty easier. You just have to know how strong of an army you want to beat and how many zeds your server/PC can handle. The game will spawn quality zeds to keep up difficulty.




Well, if we get rid of the infinite hordenight system and all of its burdens, it opens up a balanced way to make traps give shared exp. Its so annoying that i cant profit from millions of slaughtered zeds.


I think the traps should net 50% shared exp to the team, meaning, its still more profitable to slay them personaley, but more safe to nail them on spikes. Any way, the player cant gain infinite XP, killing them with weapones is still more profitable, also killer traps get their relevance back.



I think there should be some stuff that respawns independently from your loot settings. These are usually natural things, that are able to refresh even in a zombie apocalypse. 2 things comes to mind.

Bird nests and rotting carcasses. Bird nests should definitely respawn randomly, lets say 10-30% chance for each day, and carcasses should respawn too. Lower the feather yield if required. While these are realistic changes, actually important too. Not that A17 isnt full of feathers, but still arrows should be renewable fully.



Pls, make the foundable piece of many stones to give 3 or 5 stones and make it slightly more rare. This would make starting a game not *such* a chore, also offroading vehicles not such irritating due to the million stones. Less stones to hit with a car, more reason to pick em up if found some, while keeping the resource equal.



Pls, i love all vehicles except the minibike. Its lame 🙄 They are all cool as hell and stuff. I just love the motorbike. Awesome work. Crafting and Driving them is satidfying.

But pls, consider removeing the spikes from the 4x4. I would love to drive it offroad a lot better than destroying resources, bridges or bases with it. I have nobproblem with spikes actually, just put it way higher. Make it an offroad beast pls.

Also add cool horns pls. The clownbloop is fun, but pls. They deserve it.


Im only lvl 108. No Gyro yet.


Pls solve the disappearing vehicles on relog/spawn bug. Its almost gamebreaking to loose a lootfull motorbike. Also kills the will to progress further.



Okay, i had not followed experimental, so i dunno, but this idea actually made it into the game from my posts? I would be happy, pls sign it if thats based on my idea. Not that its a big deal, but i want to brag about it, and tell my friends "hey, the zombies destroyed your fort becouse I gave them the power. They are MY MINIONS HAHAHA!" Nothing else.


Seriously tho, this system only works, if implemented with the other suggested changes. Low base block dmg, battering ram zeds and the rest. I love the jumping spiders 😁.




Wish You the best guys!

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