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Just Get Rid Of Stamina All Together... <FLAME ON!>


Jackelmyer

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Don't tell people it's a survival game or that they can't dig easily the first hour, it is an offense to their indisputable way of playing.

Just kidding. Don't try to hit me with your pickaxe, it hurts.

The thing I learned after so many hours in 7 Days to Die and having met a lot of players is that there is two very distinct categories : those who play "survival" and regularly relaunch a new game to experience again the suffering of a new beginning and the pleasure of progression, and those who play to build huge bases and constructions and maximise their avatar until the end.

But what I don't understand is that these rarely restart a game (except when they are forced to after a new release) and play for months on the same map with the same character. And yet, they are those who are the most virulent against the slowness of the early hours.

I think that if TFP gave them the opportunity to start their favorite activity very early (thanks to about 20 skill points offered from the beginning, for example), they would be much less revolted by the new progression system.

 

 

It looks nice, indeed.

 

The reason they are so against the early game bieng slow is fairly simple: unlike the other group who constantly restarts because they have everything... they have experianaced the leveling grind in FULL. Like you said they have fully maxed out thier toon, id say feedback from people with the paitence to actualy fully experiance the game (the developers dont have time to) should be given serious weight.

 

Those people dont restart often because a 200 hour level grind is even less fun the 2nd time around.

 

Theres that and some of us just dont enjoy using the early game tools because they are just the exact same as the late game ones with a massive nerf sticker on the side... its not challanging beyond challanging how much tedium you can put up with.

 

Like someone brought up: few people actually saw endgame in a16, they got bored because they had everything long before thier gamestage approached even half maxed.

 

Also NO. Peoples displeasure with the perk system is 1000x deeper than not having enough starting points, its a completely diffrent (and much dumbed down) system compared to the previous version.

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If there only existed abundant, easy to farm drinks that would increase your stamina regeneration for 8 minutes per dring without any kind of downside.

 

Coffe has been nerfed (and buffed)

Looks like MM nerfed it by higher price and lower availability (1/10 Vending machines have coffe)

But Gazz buffed it from 2 minutes to 3

 

Alone for changing that (first part) this way after we asked for a better stamina system deserves a negative review, but i still hope it was not on purpose

 

(Hopefully all understand what EA means, so read harsh feedback like this in that context. There is no real bad mood included. Only the percived pain is really there)

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They’ve already tweaked stamina. You start the game with 150% fullness and your max stamina doesn’t start to drop until you get somewhere below 100%. The exact amount is still in flux but it has significantly changed the early game to be much less of a waiting for stamina to recharge game. There are still those moments but they are a lot fewer.

 

Some will call that making the early game easier and others will call it making it less tedious. Whatever your perspective, it does make eating a little less of a pressing issue on day one and two although you can get yourself in trouble if you neglect it. It also lessens the feeling that spending points in stamina related perks is mandatory.

 

Edit: I’m referring here to b241 which will be part of 17.1. Sorry for any confusion.

 

is there a list anywhere of whats currently planned for 17.1? i keep seeing some information for it scattered about in different threads

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I'm curious what your guys are doing (not doing?) to drain your stamina like that while mining...

I spend half my nights in my mine chipping away, non-stop, with zero stamina issues (except in the early, early game).

Did you not spend in the appropriate perks? (sexy rex, slow metabolism, ...)

Are you power-attacking? (don't bother with that)

 

I think one of the challenges is "Spending on appropriate perks". In days of old, you hit the ground running. Now, you hit the ground drunk and sluggish. And if you study your skill options for a bit, which, frankly I don't feel like I have the time in my first 5 days or so. I'm to busy hustling around to find a decent base location and gathering resource for my first horde night.

 

To be fair, I'm probably not playing in the most optimal way. *shrug* But also to be fair, most probably aren't playing in the most optimal way. People have to run the learning curve. People sometimes just forget steps. Etc.

 

If getting through 7 Days to Stamina is the new name of the game, and these specific skills are highly HIGHLY desirable (i.e. 10 out of 10 highly optimal playing players get these skills) then they probably should be added to the initial starter quest to give people a clue from the get go.

 

I'd probably be fine with the stamina even as is, provided it was introduced into the introduction quest line.

 

If say quest 3-4 of the starting quest line was "Get some grit!" and asked you to spend a skill point on Slow Metabolism, where point #1 you actually feel a big boost to Stamina usage and the sluggishness of the game dropped notably. Later ranks are more minor but still beneficial. So here you move around a bit. Feel like crap, but immediately lose at least the sluggishness of the game and are boosted straight up. Gives you an idea where to spend later too.

 

Then the quest right before the Trader is something like "Let's get move'n!" and forces a point into Sexy TRex. Again giving a big boost and eliminating the sluggish feel while leaving room to get a bit of an OP feel later on.

 

This... I could probably get behind much more. We'd all have it done before half of day 1 was closed and you'd get some direction on how to get rid of the horrid feeling of starting the current A17 sluggishness.

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It allows for consequences and disempowerment of the character. If there is no stamina, why not go All Out all the time? Why not hold the shift key and run ALL the time? Why not hold the power attack button down whaling on a block, go get lunch, then come back? Stamina gives us a reason why not, and as a result, the decision between sprinting and walking is meaningful. By restricting what we can do, it gives us more choice.

 

The time that you spend waiting for your stamina to recharge can be used to do other things. Look around for zombies. Manage the inventory. Eat some food. Place some blocks. Plan on what you're going to do next. Does anyone seriously think that holding down the left click button constantly while keeping your crosshair trained on a block(mining without stamina) is more fun or engaging than doing the same thing but alternately holding and not holding it down(mining with stamina)?

 

Does a game really need to be constant action? I'd say not. This is a horror game. The periods of less action and less drama are important for giving context and emotional weight to other parts.

 

whats wrong with being able to run all the time?? couldn't it simply be louder and attract more zombies? same with mining, couldn't you make it so it either attracts zombies to you or at the least makes it harder for your to hear a zombie sneaking up on you? instead of gameplay that forces you to do nothing, id rather gameplay that asks you to make choices and deal with those conseqences

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Here's a thought...

 

...stamina like Mana. Only goes down when you use it for big things (jumping, power attack, running). Doesn't change when using it for little things (regular attack, walking/jogging).

 

Realistic? Nope. Better gameplay? You betcha!

 

id love that kind of system, in conan exiles you can mine all day and never get tired, though it can freeze your stamina regen and if you mine too much and get encumbered, your sprint and attacks then use up massive amounts of stamina

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I'm curious what your guys are doing (not doing?) to drain your stamina like that while mining...

I spend half my nights in my mine chipping away, non-stop, with zero stamina issues (except in the early, early game).

[...]

Are you power-attacking? (don't bother with that)

 

I spent most of the night in my mine chipping away non-stop with zero stamina issues, wondering why they added a power attack to mining tools if it makes no sense whatsoever to use said attack under any circumstances.

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I spent most of the night in my mine chipping away non-stop with zero stamina issues, wondering why they added a power attack to mining tools if it makes no sense whatsoever to use said attack under any circumstances.

 

I really don't understand the mining pick power attack used for mining either. Like... okay... I have to angry mine now if I want to make meaningful progress? Is... Is that it? Was a right click slower swing really intended to be a way to make mining more fun? Uh... It's kinda not...

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I like that you have to manage your own personal energy as a resource. I think the power attack delay on stamina regen is heavy handed though. That effectively stopped me from considering power attacks as a viable course of action, especially when melee targeting is so tweaky.

 

A16 had a better stamina system. You got below 40 stamina and you became less effective without completely disabling you. You could drink beverages or eat yucca for stamina. Hell this reminds me about what an outright lie it is that "you can run farther in A17". You could run damn far if you had some tea and yucca on your belt. Hell you could keep stamina up digging for a good long while too. Hunger and thirst became as much of a resource as much as food and drink. Another subtle complexity lost in this ♥♥♥♥ show off an alpha. I digress...

 

Stamina is a good mechanic when implemented well. A17 implemented basically nothing well, including the new stamina system.

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I like stamina as a gameplay mechanic.

 

I suggest we leave it in for those of us that like it but add an option in the game menus.

 

We'll call it "God Mode"

 

Sorry couldn't help myself.

 

 

Or we implement Stamina impact options.

 

For stamina being less of an impact, we'll call that the "Action Mode". For those who like the current stamina system, we can call it "Slug Mode" or perhaps "Masochist Mode"...

 

Double couldn't help myself.

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I was just thinking about what Stupid said *tips hat*, and had a shower-thought: What if stamina gets removed and replaced with rapidly-decreasing food/water based on what you are doing (mining etc), and an energy level which, I guess, would be like a mana pool which you need for melee attacking/jumping/shooting etc. It could play on your food/water levels as well. Also, we need being hungry/thirsty more deadly, like your energy levels being almost nothing and unable to sprint. I think this change would play into the stamina perks in agility, just need some swapping around.

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I was just thinking about what Stupid said *tips hat*, and had a shower-thought: What if stamina gets removed and replaced with rapidly-decreasing food/water based on what you are doing (mining etc), and an energy level which, I guess, would be like a mana pool which you need for melee attacking/jumping/shooting etc. It could play on your food/water levels as well. Also, we need being hungry/thirsty more deadly, like your energy levels being almost nothing and unable to sprint. I think this change would play into the stamina perks in agility, just need some swapping around.

 

If is understand u right u want to rename the Stamina Bar into something else Like food/water bar ? i cant see any diffrence in ur system to the current one besides u use diffent terms. is it just me ? sorry i realy dont get the point :(

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The thing is all of these suggestions can work and have worked in different games. It all comes down to balancing something so it doesn't feel punitive but still allowing for advancement. I think that after the next release that this is going to be just fine. At least based on what changes the devs have said they have made in the recent builds. I don't believe removing it completely in favor of another system that has the same effect will change a whole lot. It just needs to be balanced accordingly.

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I'm tired that's prob why. Been doing college/work/half a dozen programming projects lol.

 

No, food/water become more drastically decreasing with heavy-activities; energy bar is for combat-related things + maybe when it's out you can't jump, just so you can't spam power-attacks (which would be rather OP). Maybe just tie it to power attacking? When food/water is low, your character then gets hindered rather than frequently waiting on stamina to regen. Personally, I don't find stamina an issue in the transition to mid-game but it does get a little annoying earlier on. If I find it slightly annoying I can see how some others would find it drastically annoying lol

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I personally don't mind periodically releasing the shift key or left click button periodically, but if that really is one of the issues, a quick fix would be to make attacks slower, weaker, and use use stamina when the player is low stamina, so that the player can indefinitely avoid seeing the snowflake-shattering message "out of stamina". One of the games I'm developing does this, and it works great.

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my current mod solve the issue simply

 

Additional 10 Skillpoints in the starterquest

 

Reduced skillpointgates

Sexual Tyranosaurs

Pack Mule

Well Insulated

Rule 1: Cardio

1/5 = Strenght,Fortitude,Agility 1

2/5 = Strenght,Fortitude,Agility 1

3/5 = Strenght,Fortitude,Agility 4

 

I started with 20 Skillpoints, but the 10 are enough so far i can say that after a few hours, still testing

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my current mod solve the issue simply

 

Additional 10 Skillpoints in the starterquest

 

Reduced skillpointgates

Sexual Tyranosaurs

Pack Mule

Well Insulated

Rule 1: Cardio

1/5 = Strength,Fortitude,Agility 1

2/5 = Strength,Fortitude,Agility 1

3/5 = Strength,Fortitude,Agility 4

 

I started with 20 skill points, but the 10 are enough so far i can say that after a few hours, still testing

 

... Yo... if my ESL and EFL self fixes your spelling you've got issues. :p ...

 

 

See, stuff like that should be in the game as part of the starting quest line. Would have made a big difference IMO in getting people on board with the Stamina direction TFP was shooting for. Heck getting people on board with the entire skill tree.

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I kinda like stamina in general, getting into a fight and realizing one just sprinted to the house to escape a vulture, not having the stamina for a few seconds... Keeps the blood pumping.

For mining, I could live without it. Or at least, make it have much less impact. Same for running.

Maybe have a double shift tap for an emergency reserve, or a work mode, where you can mine away but will be severely punished for it for a few hours after that. Tie stamina to activity. Give out stamina points for mining and fighting, similar to the old activity xp progression system. Someone who almost only ever mines should have a significant advantage over time in that area.

I'd say don't remove it, integrate it more and better with other systems. Make it real fitness instead of just some bar that's draining. Make me being invested in it with an outlook to improve instead of the feeling one has to keep it up just to don't get disadvantages

Make attacks more powerful with high stamina, make em slower if I'm out, but don't have me crawling away at a snails pace, unable to even lift my axe, and a few seconds later I'm fit as a fiddle, swinging a 40 pound monster-sledge. Needs some more thought imo :-)

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I like stamina. Even in mining it makes getting Sexual Tyrannosaurus perk so much more rewarding when you can finally swing full time.

 

The stamina loss in the beginning is the problem. It used to be so that you got some stamina regen via athetism perk that you could earn by just running, but now there are two perks to level, and they need hard points.

 

I wish some sort of passive leveling would come back. It felt nice to earn stamina regen naturally, as well as other bonuses.

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Soke spelling errors, thanks Siri!

 

I just don’t understand why people complain about a system that is still new and they haven’t learned yet. Put some perks into stamina Regen? Pretty easy. Yes the first day is harder atm but with 17.1 and the first day adjustment the issue will be mostly gone. Unless you are one of those people who only wanna build (holy moly creative mode and cheat mode exists for that purpose!!!) why does everyone play survival if they just wanna build? Just use some cheats to early level and get perks to get rid of stamina woes and “enjoy” survival mode?

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