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Why fixing exploits (aka digging and now looping zombies) is a good thing


Viktoriusiii

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The horde is an integral part of the game and you have to find a way to deal with it.

Once its optional, its not a threat anymore.

 

That (at least in A16) i was the only one on my server who played the hordenights says enough in my opinion how much the people like this "integral part"

 

And it is optional.

On servers you log out

and singleplayer

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That (at least in A16) i was the only one on my server who played the hordenights says enough in my opinion how much the people like this "integral part"

 

 

And I already explained why online servers are different.

In PvE you often didnt play the whole 7 days and do not feel prepared/it fair to have to endure another one.

In PvP (added to the other reason) most ppl build vs players and zombies just get in the way.

 

 

The option though is new. And while I KINDA disagree... why would you not want digging zombies now. Just disable bloodmoon if you don't want to fight it anyways and enable once you do.

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You aren't. You can do whatever you want. But the horde finds you. That is the whole premise.

If you run away, if you retreat underground hoping for them to not reach you, if you actively defend your base... you can do whatever you want.

But the horde will come no matter what you want.

"Why do I have to play with zombies?" because its Resident Evil, thats the premise.

"Why amI forced to build towers on the sides? Why cant i simply block the path?" because otherwise this TD game would be void.

"Why..."

You see where this goes? The horde is an integral part of the game and you have to find a way to deal with it.

Once its optional, its not a threat anymore.

 

I just read through the Kickstarter page and see nothing about having to manually defend your base every 7 days against a horde of homing-zombies. In one part it says "Hold up somewhere safe at night as the lunar cycle speeds up and strengthens the zombies." which implies you don't have to be Rambo to survive. It does say "Enemies will claw, jump, climb and break their way through the world in order to get to you. They can see, smell and hear the player and can work in a group", but this implies that the horde would actually have to know you were there in order to attempt to reach you. Thus if I keep quiet and out of sight and smell range I should be able to avoid the horde. It even says "Crouch and sneak your way past enemies or throw objects to distract them. Find or craft sight, sound or smell deterrents and attractor recipes and items to exploit the sight, hearing or smell of the zombies to throw them off track." which implies stealth mechanics are a viable strategy.

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From what I have seen, the only complications I see from the digging zombies are when people are trying to mine underground. The aggro range seems to be a little large. Regular wandering hordes and shamblers shouldn't be aggroing on people 20 meters under the ground and digging right to them.

 

The blood moon horde however, definitely should. You bet. This leaves PVP people the ability to build a secure underground location for their things. However, they should not expect to hide there from a blood moon horde. If the best TFP can do right now is a setting that allows digging or not, then that seems like a good short term solution.

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I think game options are great and most survival games should have them to cater the experience to the players liking. However, from 7d2d's development standpoint many of these options should probably be added towards the end (closer to gold).

 

If every new feature that was implemented came with an on/off switch in the game menu it would be more difficult for the devs to tune them (especially if the majority of the testers turned them off right away before giving it enough time).

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This.

 

By disabling digging you're taking complexity out of the game, dumbing it down even more, a thing that I believe many of us are a little disappointed with. At the same time I agree with Vedui, it really doesn't concern anyone how he plays, except him while he's playing his SP game. TFP trying to "police" every single aspect of the game because "the only safe place is the Title screen" is just not an efficient use of their time.

 

Many of the people I have read posting here, make their "day to day living/crafting base" underground. They still have a horde base in the surface to enjoy horde night (I enjoy it, makes all the hard work of finding better gun part... errr... looting feel worth it)

 

If it comes as an option, good! But to be honest the only thing they had to change is the ridiculous supersonic hearing of zombies. I for one hate digging zombies because one of my most loved activities in this game was mining. Had a mine in each of the biomes for ammunition. (and they were BIG mines too!). It took the edge off the game for a night or 2, while feeling I wasn't wasting my time as I was gathering resources for my projects. Kind of impossible now, even with perks.

 

As mentioned in other posts; an Oxygen system, Worms, or some other kind of threat for underground would be nice. NOT supersonic hearing zombies from above 40m layers of stone.

 

During horde night, EVERYONE should be ♥♥♥♥ed if underground. That's the point, they can SEE you.

(Unless you planned and invented some base design that can deal with horde night underground)

 

TL;DR:

 

Option to dig: good

Fix zombie hearing/detecting you through 40m of stone

On horde night, all bets are off. The can SEE you. Get ready.

Stop caring one ♥♥♥♥ of how other people play the game... EXCEPT in MP. (That will be a bitch to balance and I'm not touching that one)

 

At this point, it doesnt seem to me that the standard game mode vision of the devs is a pure customizable sandbox mode but a more guided survival mode with RPG elements (SP/Coop). I love the direction and hope the devs continue to build upon it.

 

However, it is clear there are alot of people who dont like it (at least in it's current state) and prefer a more customizable sandbox experience. Out of coincidence, sandbox setups are usually also more multiplayer friendly. At the end of the day, If the devs cant develop a mode that satisfies most players, I hope they add a separate game mode that will make both camps happy.

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I think game options are great and most survival games should have them to cater the experience to the players liking. However, from 7d2d's development standpoint many of these options should probably be added towards the end (closer to gold).

 

If every new feature that was implemented came with an on/off switch in the game menu it would be more difficult for the devs to tune them (especially if the majority of the testers turned them off right away before giving it enough time).

 

That is a fair point and a quite valid one at that, I just think that in this case, it may be worth the extra effort in order to maintain those players who liked safe underground bases.

 

As I said, I'm not normally a fan of extra in-game menu options, largely for the reason you've pointed out exactly.

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I think game options are great and most survival games should have them to cater the experience to the players liking. However, from 7d2d's development standpoint many of these options should probably be added towards the end (closer to gold).

 

If every new feature that was implemented came with an on/off switch in the game menu it would be more difficult for the devs to tune them (especially if the majority of the testers turned them off right away before giving it enough time).

 

If most of the Testers disable a feature right away cause this testers dont like the entire Feature and how it should work then the Devs dont nede to tune it they should remove it or listen to Ideas this testers have how it could become better and something this testers would like.

 

Zombies digging will not become a great thing only with some tuning. It could become a great Feature if Zombies would not know the exact location the player is underground and would not start digging a straight line down to the exact location of the Player.

It could be a great thing if the zombies could only sense the Player if the Player make noise, have something build on surface like a small shack around the hatch or already had Zombies following him before he reached the Hatch to go underground or if the Player is not deep enough.

Also at same time Zombies would need a much better Balacing if it comes to Block damage and Digging, but why digging ? Why not let the Zombies attach the Hatch if they find it to go underground and hunt the Player?

 

There are so many Possible Ways how to make this more immersive and more Survival, but with all the Changes in Alpha 17 i dont see a chance the Pimps will make Digging better as it currently is, so Zombies will stay with insane Block Damage and will always know where the Player is and will dig only a straight line down .

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If most of the Testers disable a feature right away cause this testers dont like the entire Feature and how it should work then the Devs dont nede to tune it they should remove it or listen to Ideas this testers have how it could become better and something this testers would like.

 

Zombies digging will not become a great thing only with some tuning. It could become a great Feature if Zombies would not know the exact location the player is underground and would not start digging a straight line down to the exact location of the Player.

It could be a great thing if the zombies could only sense the Player if the Player make noise, have something build on surface like a small shack around the hatch or already had Zombies following him before he reached the Hatch to go underground or if the Player is not deep enough.

Also at same time Zombies would need a much better Balacing if it comes to Block damage and Digging, but why digging ? Why not let the Zombies attach the Hatch if they find it to go underground and hunt the Player?

 

There are so many Possible Ways how to make this more immersive and more Survival, but with all the Changes in Alpha 17 i dont see a chance the Pimps will make Digging better as it currently is, so Zombies will stay with insane Block Damage and will always know where the Player is and will dig only a straight line down .

 

How would the devs know the feature was disabled or not? Also, why was it disabled? All the testers would need to be required to provide feedback in order to get a good sampling size. Someone then would need to read and understand all of the subjective feedback and then come up with some sort of objective decision. Business decisions such as removing a feature completely are not done so lightly.

 

With all that said and done, it is more time efficient to just release the new feature with no option to turn off and get the feedback faster. This is Alpha after all. The time in development where features are added/removed/changed.

 

You have some interesting general alternative ideas. Your guess is as good as mine how easy/difficult would it be to implement in a unity voxel game such as 7d2d.

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And I already explained why online servers are different.

In PvE you often didnt play the whole 7 days and do not feel prepared/it fair to have to endure another one.

In PvP (added to the other reason) most ppl build vs players and zombies just get in the way.

 

 

The option though is new. And while I KINDA disagree... why would you not want digging zombies now. Just disable bloodmoon if you don't want to fight it anyways and enable once you do.

 

I have literally never hidden from a horde night. I love them.

 

That being said, I'd turn off diggers in a hot second.

 

I don't go underground to hide from the 7 day horde, but it's annoying to have them constantly tearing up the landscape because I'm mining. Not because it's dangerous, but because it's ugly.

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I just read through the Kickstarter page and see nothing about having to manually defend your base every 7 days against a horde of homing-zombies. In one part it says "Hold up somewhere safe at night as the lunar cycle speeds up and strengthens the zombies." which implies you don't have to be Rambo to survive. It does say "Enemies will claw, jump, climb and break their way through the world in order to get to you. They can see, smell and hear the player and can work in a group", but this implies that the horde would actually have to know you were there in order to attempt to reach you. Thus if I keep quiet and out of sight and smell range I should be able to avoid the horde. It even says "Crouch and sneak your way past enemies or throw objects to distract them. Find or craft sight, sound or smell deterrents and attractor recipes and items to exploit the sight, hearing or smell of the zombies to throw them off track." which implies stealth mechanics are a viable strategy.

 

Because despite what some people think about the name of the game being 7 days to prepare for bloodmoon, there wasn't even a bloodmoon until A9? 10? I forget. Most of my hours playing this game were pre-bloodmoon at any rate. 7 days was the time you had before the infection killed you. Zombies could dig but they lacked GPS functions. Horde mode was actually a separate menu option for those who wanted to kill zeds in a tower defense style setting. Once they combined it into the main game then us mole people started getting called out for avoiding "The Main Point of the Game" *rolls eyes* And yeah, there were smells that could give you away, zeds could run in any darkness, even inside buildings during the day. THAT was nerve wracking. Ah well. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be, I guess.

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I have literally never hidden from a horde night. I love them.

 

That being said, I'd turn off diggers in a hot second.

 

I don't go underground to hide from the 7 day horde, but it's annoying to have them constantly tearing up the landscape because I'm mining. Not because it's dangerous, but because it's ugly.

 

And I'm about to spend my first horde night just driving my minibike because *drumroll* underground base 2 of my friends wanted to defend previous horde in did not worked as they have anticipated and diggers got to them.

 

Next horde onwards, I'm the defense designer.

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I just read through the Kickstarter page and see nothing about having to manually defend your base every 7 days against a horde of homing-zombies. In one part it says "Hold up somewhere safe at night as the lunar cycle speeds up and strengthens the zombies." which implies you don't have to be Rambo to survive. It does say "Enemies will claw, jump, climb and break their way through the world in order to get to you. They can see, smell and hear the player and can work in a group", but this implies that the horde would actually have to know you were there in order to attempt to reach you. Thus if I keep quiet and out of sight and smell range I should be able to avoid the horde. It even says "Crouch and sneak your way past enemies or throw objects to distract them. Find or craft sight, sound or smell deterrents and attractor recipes and items to exploit the sight, hearing or smell of the zombies to throw them off track." which implies stealth mechanics are a viable strategy.

 

I really would like to know, where are these so-called "deterrents" the Kickstarter mentions? I've never seen in any youtube videos for pc or console something crafted that tricks zombies.

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Because despite what some people think about the name of the game being 7 days to prepare for bloodmoon, there wasn't even a bloodmoon until A9? 10? I forget. Most of my hours playing this game were pre-bloodmoon at any rate. 7 days was the time you had before the infection killed you. Zombies could dig but they lacked GPS functions. Horde mode was actually a separate menu option for those who wanted to kill zeds in a tower defense style setting. Once they combined it into the main game then us mole people started getting called out for avoiding "The Main Point of the Game" *rolls eyes* And yeah, there were smells that could give you away, zeds could run in any darkness, even inside buildings during the day. THAT was nerve wracking. Ah well. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be, I guess.

 

Yeah!!! Lets get the old system back where the game simply ended after day 7. That was much more fun.

 

No it wasn't and it is 7 days 2 die because every 7 days, there is a major threat.

If there isn't (or you can avoid it) why not call it: "7daysorwheneveryoufeellikeittobeslightlyinconvinienced"

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To OP: I've never built underground bases, so digging zombies do not directly affect me that way.

 

My biggest issue with them, and the sole reason why I will disable them once I get the chance, is that I now have some random holes some distance away from my base. This is an inconvenience I prefer not to deal with.

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But while I agree digging was a fix, teh rest of the AI is much more exploitable than on previous versions. And encourages much more boring building.

 

That was my initial feeling as well. However, now I think differently. The previous AI was arguably more exploitable.

 

For example, previously I could dig a hole in the ground 3 voxels deep and cover the hole above me on blood moon night. The 7 day horde would come and buzz about above me while I sat there and waited it out.

 

As far as boring or fun, that's a subjective feeling that will vary from person to person. In all honesty, what people are doing now with drop bases and looping is actually more in line with how a tower defense mechanic works. Bravo to players for figuring out a creative way to build a base that can defend against a horde.

 

Is it perfect? Of course not. I am sure the AI can be tweaked further to remove any obviously OP behaviors. (The ones that require very little resources and time from the player to overcome)

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That was my initial feeling as well. However, now I think differently. The previous AI was arguably more exploitable.

 

For example, previously I could dig a hole in the ground 3 voxels deep and cover the hole above me on blood moon night. The 7 day horde would come and buzz about above me while I sat there and waited it out.

 

 

That's why I said, except digging. If you dont consider the digging exploit of previous builds, which I didnt use a single time, the AI can be cheesed now much easier than before.

Even worse, if you try not to cheese the pathing and build a 360؛ defense, you are wasting 95% of the effort. So you could cheese before, but now you are encouraged to.

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Two alternative options...

 

1) Zombies that dig, but do not leave holes. This would solve a lot of problems. Sure it'd look a bit cheesy as they dropped from your underground base's ceiling, but try to envision what a cheerleader zombie would actually look like excavating a 40 meter shaft into your base before plopping out of the hole. Seriously....even with crazy special effects, I just can't picture it...immersion destroyed.

 

For reference, the reality is that if you gave a cheerleader zombie hydraulic-like strength, she'd rip and tear into the dirt/gravel/ and err...stone (let's pretend), and sink into the loosened material. She'd have a bitch of a time "digging" and sinking once covered, but let's say she persevered. She'd continue downward, but there'd only be the circle of loose dirt where she began on the surface...no hole.*

 

 

2) Any holes dug by zombies during the Bloodmoon are "reset" after noon (the loose dirt, etc. has all collapsed back in on itself). This allows for the full horror of seeing your defenses being breached as well as surveying the damage in the morning, but conservation of mass is observed in the end. This would be like what we see with destroyed POIs in A17 regenerated by a quest.

 

 

 

*For legal purposes, I will affirm that I've never thrown a cheerleader into a dirt/gravel/stone shaft with digging implements to test any of this.

 

 

 

-Morloc

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How would the devs know the feature was disabled or not? Also, why was it disabled? All the testers would need to be required to provide feedback in order to get a good sampling size. Someone then would need to read and understand all of the subjective feedback and then come up with some sort of objective decision. Business decisions such as removing a feature completely are not done so lightly.

 

With all that said and done, it is more time efficient to just release the new feature with no option to turn off and get the feedback faster. This is Alpha after all. The time in development where features are added/removed/changed.

 

You have some interesting general alternative ideas. Your guess is as good as mine how easy/difficult would it be to implement in a unity voxel game such as 7d2d.

 

There is no worry about the official play testers turning off digging zombies and never having it on, considering that is part of their job.

Now regular players though, they would be the ones that the majority may turn it off. I see nothing wrong with this. As stated before from the devs, this is their game and they are going to make it however they want, regardless of player kneejerk reactions.

You can call yourself a tester but just because you bought their game and play it does not mean your opinion or mine matters in how they shape this game.

 

Having the option to remove digging zombies ingame does nothing to hinder the experience of playing the game; nor does it mean that TFP wont be able test it out. Not anymore so than say being able to turn off all zombies in the options menu.

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Skimming through this thread I think I agree to some degree that digging is a good addition to the game but its implementation needs work.

 

I agree on blood moon hordes, there should be NO safe places. But it's absurd that random straggler zombies or god-awful wandering hordes can detect me digging through 40 meters of rock and dig straight down to me. Right now digging is set up as an all-or-nothing kind of thing and it shouldn't be.

 

I also hate the holes diggers leave behind because I love a clean, beautiful game world and hate wasting a ton of time fixing them. Because any and all zombies can detect me infinitely far below ground it makes it that much more annoying.

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