Steel unlocks too late / in the wrong order

[FileMachete]

I think BobTheBard brings up an interesting point; why do you need a _bunch_ of Steel in A17?

 

Assume it's not to get Dukes. Based on reading a lot of comments on MP GS it sure sounds like MP players need to 'solve' for late-game zeds prior to having an adundance of Steel (my assumption). If that's the case then the previous mass consumer of Steel, upgrading blocks, is no longer really there, so to speak.

 

Seems possible that this one is circling around back to "content". Maybe adding a few things could rekindle a real drive to get to Steel?

 

Steel bars. Steel Spikes. Steel Darts. Yet, again, balance comes into play. If you've already 'solved' for everything then any upgrades beyond a working solution really aren't that important.

[OnlyMeiya]

 

Based on reading a lot of comments on MP GS it sure sounds like MP players need to 'solve' for late-game zeds prior to having an adundance of Steel (my assumption).

 

 

Players in multiplayer don't need steel for zeds, the veteran ones (like myself) Don't even need a base to defeat BMH, we can kite it while picking zeds off.

 

They need it against other players, but the 1 land claim block has truly destroyed multiplayer more than anything.

[xXBadDreamXx]

dont you guys have phones? i mean...dont you guys enjoy leveling up?

freaking whiners....

[WolfyBlah]

You don't see replayability, I do.

 

Starting with different builds instead of ALWAYS going full crafting is not possible and viable option.

 

New AI ensures you can survive blood moons on cobblestone alone and the only thing you need int for now that you can't get otherwise are 3 end game vehicles.

 

For you its stretching the game out, for me its allowing me to take a different route.

Exclusively int is level gated and playing without more then 3 points in int is possible now.

 

If you feel like its too much for you to handle, don't cry for the progression to be dumbed down to the point where its non viable to play as anything else then crafting and just mod yourself what settings and limits you'd like.

 

Also, how many times you start over on average? I hardly doubt its more then 1 every couple of months, if you can't be arsed to "grind", then mod it out for yourself.

 

Also, stop ignoring the fact that "this thing" can be gotten much, much, MUCH earlier through quests, vendor or loot, depending on your very own choices.

Its not that you have to have certain level to get certain things, there isn't a single thing you can't have before unlocking it through int, except 3 end game vehicles. Its that you want to craft it yourself, while you most certainly don't have to due to other sources being there.

 

You no longer need knowledge to craft something to be able to repair it and there is zero reason to rush anything, unless you really have low patience and if you do, think again if this game is really for you, because you are complaining on a "grind" in a game that is made around grinding literally everything around you.

 

 

this game is not a grindy game.

it has been balanced to be a grind since Gazz joined the team.

 

the thing is im not 'crying' for the progression to be dumbed down, just the opposite, you do realise defending the current progression as deeper than previous versions is beyond backwards, with the new perk system this game has been dumbed down even more than previous, we went from a character being a complex collection of exponential XP curves and unquie skills... to a single level curve.

 

you had the exact same option to not craft things in a16, litteraly the only thing thats changed is now 'not crafting' has become the most forced crap ever: some of us actualy want to craft things in this crafting game.

 

I never ignored the fact that (lets make a steel fireaxe our example) can be got as loot, from traders or quests just the oposite: thats the thing i have a problem with. Let me get this stright, we have bared the crafting of steel untill level 70 because the developers dont want people getting steel tools early in the game? yes?

makes 0 sense to try and achive that by gating only the crafting of somthing behind a massive XP wall when it can be found as loot or bourght from a trader... remove them from loot and quest rewards untill after the player unlocks them = actualy balanced system that dosent ♥♥♥♥ on crafters for no other reason than 'hurr durr i like to loot all day everyday'.

 

 

as for how many times i 'start' on average, in alpha 15 and 16 i had 3 games running alongside each other on launch, and then restarted maybe 20 times in the time between 16.4 and 17e.

I never once complained about the steel gating in a16, beyond saying that the level needed (and thus time invested) per game was a bit high.

how many games of a17 am i playing? none, there is nothing in this alpha that is an improvement to the game i love.

Stil playing a16.4 with friends, probably will never move onto alpha 17: Hate the POIS and perk system with a passion.

[Hek Harris]

Progression.xml file. Change the values that bother you. Enjoy.

[WolfyBlah]

1

Progression.xml file. Change the values that bother you. Enjoy.

 

Editing an xml file wont bring back action exp/skills.

Or Do you really belive that anyone here needs to be told that they can edit game progression in progression.xml?

 

What is the point of repeating the exact same things day in and day out? I swear a good % of the people on these forums just have

-just mod it

-its alpha

-its TFPS game 1!!1!1

Saved in a text file to copy spam the forums with.

 

The reason people keep postig the same negative feedback over and over isnt them wanting the game to fail with malicious intent like t he moderators/developers apparently see it.

No the reason is because those issues are ignored and unadressed, sometimes over years. Somthing i have complained about over and over is crafting timers. .. used to be an option and still could be with 5 mins of backend coding... instead i need to edit every single recipe...

 

Why do i keep complainig about this.... because nothing has changed. Not because im a super negative person or crying or whatever else people on this forum want to insult me with, because the issue is still there.

[VenomsLust]

Players in multiplayer don't need steel for zeds, the veteran ones (like myself) Don't even need a base to defeat BMH, we can kite it while picking zeds off.

Yup, baseless defense is the best! kill 'em in the streets!

 

They need it against other players, but the 1 land claim block has truly destroyed multiplayer more than anything.

I disagree here.

For MP, the 1 (active) CB limit kills CB-spam griefing more than solid gameplay. (Why do you need to claim the whole map?)

I would say the CB limit "negatively" affects the single player experience moreso than the MP experience.

My answer to the "issues" that would arise from it, however, is to be more strategic in how you build.

 

Back on topic:

While I will admit that the recipe progression (as it relates to Steel) seems... off... It turned out to be irrelevant as we (my wife and I) had collected enough Forged Steel from looting/traders for all our immediate needs... now that she has unlocked Steel (I'm full gatherer, she's crafting/cooking)... We very quickly wound up with nearly a thousand sitting in our boxes... The funny part is that we make more, primarily just to empty out the Forge, so we can melt more iron into it (those boxes fill up fast).... <.< >.>

[Ghostlight]

Traders exist.

 

And you know well that the moment steel becomes available, it becomes abundant.

Its balance, you want steel tools earlier or firearms, invest some dukes into it.

 

There are 4 of us. We need a lot of Steel. Not only Steel equipment for 4, but also for the base. We are facing a 4-player horde every 7 days, that's gamestage over 3 x what a single person is facing and we chose not to exploit the AI.

 

One of us does a trader run (to the 3 traders we have found, one of which is 4km away) every 3 days and has been buying Steel whenever it was there. We have 20 Steel total on day 16. Most was used for repairing the Steel items we had found or bought.

 

And it takes a lot of (mining) effort to produce Steel in great quantities, it's not like you are flowing with Steel the moment you unlock it. If Steel came earlier and people abuse it, then they deserve to be able to abuse it because it takes a lot of time to mass the materials to do so. Time that could be spent doing many other productive things. Opportunity cost. If a player wants to forgo many other things he could do (like looting) to mine for hours on end so he can have mass Steel at the cost of many other things, why not let him? Wouldn't that just be more choice for the player? Another way to play?

[myrkana]

There are 4 of us. We need a lot of Steel. Not only Steel equipment for 4, but also for the base. We are facing a 4-player horde every 7 days, that's gamestage over 3 x what a single person is facing and we chose not to exploit the AI.

 

One of us does a trader run (to the 3 traders we have found, one of which is 4km away) every 3 days and has been buying Steel whenever it was there. We have 20 Steel total on day 16. Most was used for repairing the Steel items we had found or bought.

 

And it takes a lot of (mining) effort to produce Steel in great quantities, it's not like you are flowing with Steel the moment you unlock it. If Steel came earlier and people abuse it, then they deserve to be able to abuse it because it takes a lot of time to mass the materials to do so. Time that could be spent doing many other productive things. Opportunity cost. If a player wants to forgo many other things he could do (like looting) to mine for hours on end so he can have mass Steel at the cost of many other things, why not let him? Wouldn't that just be more choice for the player? Another way to play?

 

because steel is the end game tool material. When they removed the level gates completely players were getting all the int stuff they needed right away and end up being overpowered super early on. Having one person in mp get all the forging perks and make steel tools on day 4 is very powerful. It means all their friends will now have all steel tools, guns at highest level etc....

 

 

also the 4 of you can all get various sources of iron and have steel overflowing easily. Make 2 forged, smelt down cans, pipes, etc... Use the wrench to break apart cars, fridges,stoves,etc... and get the pipes to smelt down and the plain iron. It's not hard to get tons of steel if the party works together. Or all of you have iron pickaxes and go picking boulders, birng back the raw iron.

[Hek Harris]

1

 

Editing an xml file wont bring back action exp/skills.

Or Do you really belive that anyone here needs to be told that they can edit game progression in progression.xml?

 

What is the point of repeating the exact same things day in and day out? I swear a good % of the people on these forums just have

-just mod it

-its alpha

-its TFPS game 1!!1!1

Saved in a text file to copy spam the forums with.

 

The reason people keep postig the same negative feedback over and over isnt them wanting the game to fail with malicious intent like t he moderators/developers apparently see it.

No the reason is because those issues are ignored and unadressed, sometimes over years. Somthing i have complained about over and over is crafting timers. .. used to be an option and still could be with 5 mins of backend coding... instead i need to edit every single recipe...

 

Why do i keep complainig about this.... because nothing has changed. Not because im a super negative person or crying or whatever else people on this forum want to insult me with, because the issue is still there.

 

i really do insist. I'm not saying that it will never change, remember TFP is on holiday. if you want to play NOW according to your own wishes / habits / preferences, you can do it EXTREMELY easily. You have exposed your concern, I give you a temporary solution, use it and you will see that it works. I do not even call it modding, it's just changing a few variables in a file.

Stop wanting things that TFP can not give you yet but that you can get very easily. And I do not say: "go do the modding and dismantle yourself", I give you the name of the file and promise you that it's easy.

 

Everyone has understood what some players want. But repeating it over all topics is of no use. We try to help you and you get upset immediately. It's a bit painful ^^.

 

Two words : Pimps, holiday.

[Corbit]

because steel is the end game tool material. When they removed the level gates completely players were getting all the int stuff they needed right away and end up being overpowered super early on. Having one person in mp get all the forging perks and make steel tools on day 4 is very powerful. It means all their friends will now have all steel tools, guns at highest level etc....

 

 

also the 4 of you can all get various sources of iron and have steel overflowing easily. Make 2 forged, smelt down cans, pipes, etc... Use the wrench to break apart cars, fridges,stoves,etc... and get the pipes to smelt down and the plain iron. It's not hard to get tons of steel if the party works together. Or all of you have iron pickaxes and go picking boulders, birng back the raw iron.

 

If its so easy to amass a lot of steal then surely the process to craft steel should change rather than just adding a gate.

[myrkana]

If its so easy to amass a lot of steal then surely the process to craft steel should change rather than just adding a gate.

 

It's easy because we gather the stuff throughout the game, by time I unlock steel I have thousands of iron sitting around. By that point I've all ready started producing cement and am either done with or in the process of upgrading my horde night base to cement. Once I'm done with that I can focus on making steel for everything else.

 

irc a crucible is needed and thats the hardest part since it requires like 2000 stone or something.

[CoolJ]

It's pretty clear that there has to be some changes here. There are simply too many recipes that require bulk steel for it to be gated at 70. It essentially makes perks you buy a waste. I am pretty sure I unlocked special bolts and arrows around level 28. The early guns unlock way before 70. It takes 50 steel to make a shotgun. Which you will need to make if you intend to put any mods in your guns at all. Tier 2 and up schematics also require steel. The motorcycle requires 36 steel. Those are just wasted perk points. No, you cannot just ignore them and buy other things either. You would have a future requirement of something like 15 points when you hit 70 if you wait. So you either spend them on things as they unlock, or you stare at them in the skill tree.

 

I am getting to the point where I can't go into POIs or do quests anymore. I just don't have the firepower. I am level 59 and half of the enemies are feral or glowing. This orange shotgun is just not getting it done. I managed to buy enough steel from the trader to keep my wrench repaired and to make a nice flawless pistol. Yes, I can craft flawless items, but I can't craft a single steel arrowhead.

 

>Keep the ad hominem out of it please. OzHawkeye<

[WolfyBlah]

i really do insist. I'm not saying that it will never change, remember TFP is on holiday. if you want to play NOW according to your own wishes / habits / preferences, you can do it EXTREMELY easily. You have exposed your concern, I give you a temporary solution, use it and you will see that it works. I do not even call it modding, it's just changing a few variables in a file.

Stop wanting things that TFP can not give you yet but that you can get very easily. And I do not say: "go do the modding and dismantle yourself", I give you the name of the file and promise you that it's easy.

 

Everyone has understood what some players want. But repeating it over all topics is of no use. We try to help you and you get upset immediately. It's a bit painful ^^.

 

Two words : Pimps, holiday.

 

Pointing me to a file and going 'bruh this is easy to fix' its not. Helpful.

 

I already know exactly how to mod the game to my preferences, iv been forced to do it more and more since alpha 11.

 

Telling me to go mod it and then acting like this is helpful advice is bordering on condescending.

If you re read he post youl see that the specific example i brought up is somthing that was removed as an option from the game years ago so its not about wanting it fixed while people turn in the new year, its about wanting the developers to at least adress the issue with more than 'we dont want players doing that'.

[sycotic]

I am level 59 and half of the enemies are feral or glowing. This orange shotgun is just not getting it done.

 

This, im lvl 56 and dont want to go to POIs anymore. Glowing z's at this stage are just not fun when you have to empty your shotgun to its head to kill it and its not alone.

[Hek Harris]

Try "run" instead of the default "sprint" for feral zombies. It changes a lot of thing (essentially in close fights so you don't have to waste ammo).

 

Wolfy, my first answer was for the OP. My second, my bad, I thought it was the OP responding so I didn't understand. Didn't see you were gone on another subject (learning by doing).

[HungryZombie]

I've seen someone from Fun Pimps post on the forums they are looking at how to balance the zombie regen. I think they know it's an issue.

[Morloc]

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to the idea of dying. Not because we suck, or need to get better...but because that's the nature of this game now.

 

If you're playing on "Insane" and you're not dying, you're lying, you're modding, you're exploiting, you may be MP, or you're not even touching the game. Get used to dying. I rarely died in A16 on Insane and I almost always melee'd. Now I play on default+1 and die often. Sometimes it's a tactical error "I'll back off into this.....bathroom ", sometimes it's a strategic mistake (CR with death debuff at night anyone? ...and sometimes it's good old bad luck. "Crap...is that a bea....".

 

Steel does feel pretty late. Saving 3 pts for a stat increase is painful. Having recipes that use steel before being able to make steel is the debate whether the glass is half full or empty. I look at those recipes as a nice option to "leap-frog" ahead if you're fortunate enough to have saved up some steel from vendors or the rare field source and NOT as a indication that I should already be able to make steel. THAT SAID....there should be a couple other field sources added.

 

By all means, express your opinions on the changes.

 

 

-Morloc

[CoolJ]

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to the idea of dying. Not because we suck, or need to get better...but because that's the nature of this game now.

 

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to not telling other people what they should be accustomed too. If you are dying on default settings, then you really have no business telling other people how to play the game.

 

Steel does feel pretty late. Saving 3 pts for a stat increase is painful. Having recipes that use steel before being able to make steel is the debate whether the glass is half full or empty. I look at those recipes as a nice option to "leap-frog" ahead if you're fortunate enough to have saved up some steel from vendors or the rare field source and NOT as a indication that I should already be able to make steel. THAT SAID....there should be a couple other field sources added.

 

Saying this, is the exact same as saying that you don't think people should get the perks from the points they spend. So whatever perks you like, you can spend the points, but they wont work until level 70.

 

By all means, express your opinions on the changes.

 

 

-Morloc

 

>CoolJ - again, no ad hominem please! - OzHawkeye<

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I have played more now and I do agree, some materials seem to be out of order. For example, I can learn the bicycle before the forge. Bear in mind that this is an alpha and this stuff will likely be tweaked and fixed soon enough. I can deal with it while I wait for The Pimps to do their thing. Very happy with A17 despite the issues associated with a game in alpha and EA. You guys should have seen the WoW alpha...

[WolfyBlah]

I think some of the people I see posting need to get accustomed to the idea of dying. Not because we suck, or need to get better...but because that's the nature of this game now.

 

If you're playing on "Insane" and you're not dying, you're lying, you're modding, you're exploiting, you may be MP, or you're not even touching the game. Get used to dying. I rarely died in A16 on Insane and I almost always melee'd. Now I play on default+1 and die often. Sometimes it's a tactical error "I'll back off into this.....bathroom ", sometimes it's a strategic mistake (CR with death debuff at night anyone? ...and sometimes it's good old bad luck. "Crap...is that a bea....".

 

Steel does feel pretty late. Saving 3 pts for a stat increase is painful. Having recipes that use steel before being able to make steel is the debate whether the glass is half full or empty. I look at those recipes as a nice option to "leap-frog" ahead if you're fortunate enough to have saved up some steel from vendors or the rare field source and NOT as a indication that I should already be able to make steel. THAT SAID....there should be a couple other field sources added.

 

By all means, express your opinions on the changes.

 

 

-Morloc

 

Dark souls never kills you unfairly, theres always a way to see an ambush ahead of time if you slow down and look (or use common sense).

-considered a difficult game

-dosent kill the player just because.

 

The reason for that is its terrible design to kill the player because they got unlucky.

 

Players should be able to survive, the entire point of the 'survival aspects' is to stay alive right?

 

So no, people shouldnt 'get used to dieing'

Iv played higher difficulty settings through all the alphas and they have all ammounted to more zombie HP or more recently higher chance of bull♥♥♥♥ enemies spawning. Neither is a good scale for difficulty to be honest, someone playing on insane is doing the exact same as someone on scavanger, the only difference is more enemy hp and more ferals/irradiated.

[OnlyMeiya]

Yup, baseless defense is the best! kill 'em in the streets!

 

 

I disagree here.

For MP, the 1 (active) CB limit kills CB-spam griefing more than solid gameplay. (Why do you need to claim the whole map?)

I would say the CB limit "negatively" affects the single player experience moreso than the MP experience.

My answer to the "issues" that would arise from it, however, is to be more strategic in how you build.

 

 

You must not have been raided by very good players then or dealt with very good players in general, let me break it down why you're wrong.

 

You can only be "So" strategic in how you build. You won't thwart determined raiders, trust me.

 

I have played on many ,many servers, many of the most popular ones with some of the most hardcore of players and I've learned much in my 5000 hours of playing this game (on and off for 5 years now )

 

1. Spam griefing by spamming LCB is a very rare thing, and even if so, you can always break the land claim blocks, If you can't break them, you can usually dig them out very quickly, most players that do LCB griefing just toss them out over the ground unprotected; also do you know how much resource you need to create enough LCB to grief someone? Several, and you're practically handing those over for free.

 

(Its easier just to destroy the base)

 

2.Many Admin will ban or step in after excessive griefing takes place. You're automatically protected.

 

3. You absolutely need larger bases to deal with groups of raiders, the rule of thumb is your base must be strong enough to withstand at least 3-4 raiders or more for at least 10 hours to be a very good base design, and if your base incorporates traps that kill them and prevent them from getting their bags back, your base is legendary.

 

You need more space to do that, you need to separate all your loot into separate areas in the base, you need to protect them behind several vault doors and the same thing goes for your forges, work bench, chem station, ect. If not they will either break them, or take all the resources out of them while continuing to raid.

 

 

4. Small bases get collapsed. The range that the LCB give you is definitely within the limit of players just destroying your base instead of raiding it. Many do it to prove a point, many do it in spite, and some do it for the lulls.

 

 

 

You need space to hide loot, if you only have this 1 land claim block you're essentially limited to a few rooms full of nothing but vault doors, that makes living in the base not very fun if you have other players living there with you.

 

If you're limited in space you don't have the necessary coverage to deter/prevent yourself from being raided clean.

 

Whats harder, a base with many hallways, mazes, vault doors and loot separated on many different levels, or a base that is just 1 room and everything is right there?

[Morloc]

Saying this, is the exact same as saying that you don't think people should get the perks from the points they spend.

 

Please take a moment to look up what "exact same" means, then re-evaluate your response. Perhaps you meant to say "almost the same" or "virtually the same", which would still be hyperbole, but could still subjectively be true.

 

Try and see the glass as "half full". If you buy the motorcycle perk you can build a motorcycle. Points spent, perk acquired...ability gained. TFP could make this perk harder to gain than steel, but I really like the idea of being able to build it sooner if I'm fortunate/determined enough to save up the steel.

 

I'd like to see more of this sort of thing actually...less linear perks FTW!

 

 

-Morloc

[Morloc]

The reason for that is its terrible design to kill the player because they got unlucky.

 

Players should be able to survive, the entire point of the 'survival aspects' is to stay alive right?

 

So no, people shouldnt 'get used to dieing'

 

Rimworld is a survival game too, but in many ways you're not expected to survive....certainly not everyone. This aspect makes pulling off a "win" very satisfying. It might be true that luck in a game being a factor in your survival might not be the very best design, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as "terrible" either. With all the changes in A17, the traditional "default" settings are probably not an analogue to what we used to use. I believe Roland implied something to that effect when he'd wished that they had dropped the difficulty setting a notch.

 

Iv played higher difficulty settings through all the alphas and they have all ammounted to more zombie HP or more recently higher chance of bull♥♥♥♥ enemies spawning. Neither is a good scale for difficulty to be honest, someone playing on insane is doing the exact same as someone on scavanger, the only difference is more enemy hp and more ferals/irradiated.

 

You forgot what's probably the biggest difference...the Zs hit harder. Very different game because of that. Heavy-fisted zombies force you to play more carefully. You need to consider mobility vs. mitigation. Those one or two hits you might absorb fighting some ferals become deadly. You end up needing to decide whether you'll adjust your playstyle accordingly, or take the risk of racking up deaths. It's not called 7D2Survive though, so it's all still fun The significant increase in feral encounters is what daunts me the most.

 

I'm curious...what would be a proper scaling of difficulty for you? If not more bullet-spongy zombies, or more specialized zombies, are you talking about the survival aspects being made tougher, or.........?

 

 

-Morloc

[MrMobius]

I feel like most of the people responding to this thread are missing the point the OP was making:

 

That the order in which steel smithing, and steel related perks unlock aren't quite right:

 

Motorcycles require a non trivial amount of steel, but unlock before steel smithing.

Gun smithing perks unlock before steel smithing, and also require non trivial amounts of steel.

The perks to allow crafting of tier 2/3 mods (many of which require steel) are also unlocked before steel smithing.

 

Neither the OP, nor I, are complaining about when steel unlocks, just questioning the design of making steel requiring perks available prior to actually unlocking steel.

 

Some have said that you can just buy the steel from traders: Whilst this is true, Getting enough steel to be meaningful from traders requires that

 

A: You have found enough traders to have a meaningful amount available for purchase.

B: You have enough dukes to buy it.

 

There is an opportunity cost associated with this: You have to sell things in order to gain the dukes for that. This requires selling stuff you would otherwise be using. Bear in mind that crafting weapons/tools for selling is limited to at best 3x per trader, for each item.

 

Running around gathering stuff like mechanical parts can be done, but they are used to craft other useful things too, and you would be spending a non trivial amount of time doing it, which could be spent looting or exploring. So again, there is an opportunity cost.

 

Others have said that once steel is available for crafting it becomes abundant.

This is partially true, but also irrelevant to the point. The point is that perks which require steel should only be unlocked *after* steel is readily available.

I appreciate based on earlier comments about traders, that you could take a short cut by buying steel, and that is a somewhat valid argument, but if you want to make a full set of weapons (pistol, rifle and shotgun) and motorcycles for a party, that is not reasonably achievable, given that the buy price for most loot is pretty poor, even with better barter at 4/5, and that non stacking items (often the most valuable items) are limited to 3x sold to each trader, depending on what they already have in stock. Let's also take into account that traders almost never buy pistols, which are by far the most common weapon drop, compared to rifles and shotguns.

 

When steel should be unlocked itself in a separate, balancing question, that was not being asked by the OP.