OzHawkeye Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 So, a lot of people aren't big fans of the Perk system as it is in A17. I also see a lot of people harking back to the book system used in previous Alphas to unlock certain recipes. For those in favour of such a system though, I'd like to know your opinions about book rarity. You see, to me, the great downfall of the book system was always that the more fundamental the recipe gated by the book, the more common the book had to be, and therefore the less point in gating the recipe behind a book was in the first place. The perfect example of this was the Forge Ahead book, without which, in previous Alpha's, you were stuck in the Stone age. Ultimately, before it's much un-mourned demise, the book had to be made so common by the Pimps, that it was virtually worthless as a gating mechanic in the first place. While not a book, another good, and personal example, I can think of was the old Calipers, which on one game, take me 130 days to find just one. I can honestly and safely say, it wasn't a sense of joy that I went without the calipers for 130 days, or exultation at finally finding one, but frustration bordering on murderous rage that it had taken so long. So, for those in favour of the old book system (or pushing it for a revival in future Alphas), how would you overcome the potential for a gate to cripple an unlucky players game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Multiple avenues to complete the task. Books - People can get lucky and find "the book" they need. Quests - People unlucky enough to not find the book, can earn one. Skills - People can LEARN by DOING. The stuff that makes sense, of course... Quests(v2) - People can take things apart and learn bits and pieces about it to eventually do it enough to learn how to put it together. TFP can be clever; they can give us a strong game system, one that utilizes everyone's strengths. Or, they can keep going the cheap way out. This close to gold, I'm not holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam R. Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Make it a gamestage thing: Increase a books's/gate-item's drop chance with days passed, or better –days stayed alive. (NOT zombies killed.) Offer alternative route using the new quest system, for those who still are unlucky: Do a certain amount of missions from specialist NPCs, which in turn dispense rare tools, or part with the needed knowledge. That would be the failsafe, that's more fun/engaging/varied/immersive than "I need x points to get to level y to unlock z". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkurtin Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Make it a gamestage thing: Increase a books's/gate-item's drop chance with days passed, or better –days stayed alive. (NOT zombies killed.) Offer alternative route using the new quest system, for those who still are unlucky: Do a certain amount of missions from specialist NPCs, which in turn dispense rare tools, or part with the needed knowledge. That would be the failsafe, that's more fun/engaging/varied/immersive than "I need x points to get to level y to unlock z". Yeah, or just have the trader start stocking the recipe to sell at a certain gamestage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Ew, gamestage gates are as lame as level gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 All of these posts have great ideas! The way I see it, books add more things to strive for by looting. Leave the perks (as an RNG warranty) just add books for most crafting recipes (Although I believe that there are things that you should NEVER be able to craft, only loot or buy... but I'll leave that for another thread.) Adding some RARE/EPIC recipes that can ONLY be looted can be even better, as it opens up LATE GAME looting. The point being a psychological achievement as you'd still need the materials but it still feels like a ♥♥♥♥ YEAH! moment. (a "feeling" that this game DESPERATELY needs!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exxodous Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Multiple avenues to complete the task. Books - People can get lucky and find "the book" they need. Quests - People unlucky enough to not find the book, can earn one. Skills - People can LEARN by DOING. The stuff that makes sense, of course... Quests(v2) - People can take things apart and learn bits and pieces about it to eventually do it enough to learn how to put it together. TFP can be clever; they can give us a strong game system, one that utilizes everyone's strengths. Or, they can keep going the cheap way out. This close to gold, I'm not holding my breath. You could still have it in the perk tree with a "skip" option instead of buy? Once skipped you rely on RNG or quests. Giving those who want it NOW the opportunity to do so? I'd probably skip and save my points for combat. /trying to please everyone since 1970 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?101566-Some-A17-thoughts&p=916185&viewfull=1#post916185 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEADication Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 RNG books with a backup path (For when RNGesus hates you) would be my preference. Quests or point allocation would both be potential optional paths. The feeling of exultation(today's word of the day) at a big score during a Barnes&Noble\Crack a Book pillaging... aahhh... those were the days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrek Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 I always enjoyed the books, sure they could be frustrating but it gave me something to hunt for. I suppose they could have made them craftable maybe by breaking down books you don't need, or requiring them whole with some other rare item like a pen. With the trader overhaul they would have made nice items to fill out the high end of the store. I remember the forge book days but if I remember right there were no destroyed forges back then either, if you found yourself the forge cabin you were good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam R. Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Ew, gamestage gates are as lame as level gates. My suggestion wouldn't mean the gamestage as hard gate. Nothing like "At level 40 the glowy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s start spawning on you – hope you have enough bullets by then! ". There would be a chance to find a schematic from day 1 if RNGesus wills, the higher gamestage would only slightly increase the standing with RNGesus, but it would still be RNG. Base min chance to drop +days survived/10 (or whatever is a balanced value here)= actual chance to drop. Capped at a possible max, depending on what the item actually is and how "rare" it is supposed to be. So chance for a "forge ahead" book could go from 5 to 70%, while chance for calipers would maybe just go from 1 to 30%. OP was about how to deal with the downside of RNG, apart from the alternative failsafes like perks/skills/rewards this one actually adresses it directly – all without any hard gates, points or killing x amount of Zs, you just need to stay alive doing whatever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 This can be overcome with "Day 30" Trader's stock. The entire stock changes after day 30... or 50 ... or whatever... After said day the Traders now stock rare books for a premium. No worries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam R. Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 This can be overcome with "Day 30" Trader's stock. The entire stock changes after day 30... or 50 ... or whatever... After said day the Traders now stock rare books for a premium. No worries! Keeping multiplayer and individual progression in mind, it should be tied to player's time spent(or -survived, to apply some challenge) on the server, not the global day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Keeping multiplayer and individual progression in mind, it should be tied to player's time spent(or -survived, to apply some challenge) on the server, not the global day. I love that idea!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 It has merits, but then it literally specifies an end game. "You're at 100 days, you're as good as you're going to get". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Keeping multiplayer and individual progression in mind, it should be tied to player's time spent(or -survived, to apply some challenge) on the server, not the global day. You just gave me an idea... Lucky looter/Joe perk should only apply to how much time you've been alive. Base bonus for staying alive/not dying during normal gameplay: 1-3 days = 0 4 days = 5 5 days = 10 .. 10 days = 50 (like the goggles) Lucky Looter Perk 1/2/3 = 10%/25%/40% That way we could be rewarded for staying alive instead of punished for dying. I'm thinking single player here.. MP gets a little more complicated (doable though). Add this to the possibilities of finding the "rare"/"not found yet" books and RNG will be on your side as long as you don't die and are at the right game stage/level. Brainstorming here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 Multiple avenues to complete the task. Books - People can get lucky and find "the book" they need. Quests - People unlucky enough to not find the book, can earn one. Skills - People can LEARN by DOING. The stuff that makes sense, of course... Quests(v2) - People can take things apart and learn bits and pieces about it to eventually do it enough to learn how to put it together. Hmmm, I wonder if we'd had those avenues back when we had books, we might still have them. Some good ideas in this thread, so it does look like there's ways to make a book system (or at least a hybrid one) work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Yeh we had them, but instead of fixing a broken system, the pimps replaced it with another broken system. It really is their MO. I can't fathom the thought process behind re-working the same thing alpha after alpha after alpha with only adding a relatively small amount of NEW content. I mean sure I guess since this system is a new replacement for the old system, it counts as new content, but um, it kinda defies the spirit of new content, if you know what I mean? I dunno, at any rate, even if the books/quests/skills were not available at the time, some foresight would have solved that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 Yeh we had them, but instead of fixing a broken system, the pimps replaced it with another broken system. Not at the earliest point, if I recall correctly. Books pre-dated Quests and Skills. That said, in a perfect world, I'd likes mah books back if I coulds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Yeh we had them, but instead of fixing a broken system, the pimps replaced it with another broken system. It really is their MO. I can't fathom the thought process behind re-working the same thing alpha after alpha after alpha with only adding a relatively small amount of NEW content. I mean sure I guess since this system is a new replacement for the old system, it counts as new content, but um, it kinda defies the spirit of new content, if you know what I mean? I dunno, at any rate, even if the books/quests/skills were not available at the time, some foresight would have solved that issue. Wouldn't you love to sit in on a few of these staff meetings? I really want to know how these conversations go. I support TFP, I like A17.... but this "new" system stopped being fun in 1990. I don't know what they are thinking... .... this is why you shouldn't plan game mechanics while really stoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam R. Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 It has merits, but then it literally specifies an end game. "You're at 100 days, you're as good as you're going to get". So? Most people stop way earlier than day 100, because they just want to get to an endgame and then are bored anyway. Nothing against more content and more goals laid out by the game, but all of these systems and all the content added will always have some end point. The only thing truly potentially endless is the part after you conquered all that jazz and have the means to shape the world however you damn well please. Which will always be my favorite part of the game, unless of course they change it so much, that even at end game certain aspects *cough*resourcegathering*cough* still suck balls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Even when we have our super impenetrable fortress, we find ways to amuse ourselves... hell, you're a builder, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 All the more reason for Colonies!!! Give us end-game goodies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 All the more reason for Colonies!!! Give us end-game goodies! Yes, Colonies is my greatest single wished for feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam R. Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Even when we have our super impenetrable fortress, we find ways to amuse ourselves... hell, you're a builder, you know. Yessir. Was just wondering why you brought up the point of endgame. Because with any of the systems you have one laid out before you, or not? Wouldn't you love to sit in on a few of these staff meetings? I really want to know how these conversations go. I support TFP, I like A17.... but this "new" system stopped being fun in 1990. I don't know what they are thinking... (...) The way it looks to me: They made a massive, complex, hard to balance game, reaching many different players and playstyles. They realized they don't want to do the work of bringing all of that together, trying to please everyone. May even have reached a conclusion that it's impossible. They decided to cut as many corners as they can to make their work easier. Result: The current (supposed) one-size-fits-all progression concept. Too bad, it's not working too well (again). Too bad it's gonna eat even more time that could be used for adding content. But yeah, this is not the thread for that topic. It was mentioned they're not backing down on this new system generally speaking, so if books/schematics as a means to build your character skillset shall make a return, it has to be in line with that system. So books unlocking specific perks could be a thing as alternative route to spending the points on them yourself. The attributes would still gate their availability to be used (same like with weather/death debuffs) but as soon as attribute requirements are met they work. This could actually become interesting. Add books/schems as alternative way to get points directly into crafting related perks. Basically the magazines, but with permanent effect. Add NPCs as trainers for combat skills, giving points directly into those perks for money/completeing missions. (Or just more books related to combat topics, if such NPCs are too much effort). Slightly increase higher level attribute cost. Remove any level gates. Remove the level cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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