Steam reviews - I kinda figured

[Arkheias]

About three days ago I saw

on youtube. It's basically a list of some POIs in Navezgane that look like cool places to build a base in.

 

The first POI is a desert home with an elaborate bunker underneath it, and digging zombies make it completely worthless.

 

Above ground, you could reinforce it all you like to protect against zombies. You could turn it into a perfectly legitimate fortress with nice zombie-accessible stairs to allow the zombies to access the underground bunker portion if they ever manage to get through your three meter thick stainless steel walls (It's only fair).

 

If you ever happened to be underground though, the zombies would just ignore your walls and use their x-ray vision to locate and dig straight down towards you.

 

The only way to prevent this wanton destruction of the landscape and complete bypassing of your defenses, would be to leave a big gaping hole in your walls for the zombies to path through and to hope that the stairs and hallways were also completely within their pathing range.

 

 

I've always made sure to include zombie-accessible stairs in my basements. I don't discriminate (I murder everything equally). I just think that secret underground bunkers are cool. Why must secret underground bunker aficionados be treated like criminals?

[Guppycur]

I decided to go check out the steam reviews.

 

I found most useless, but did decide that sorting by 1 weeks "most helpful" was very damning.

 

Many vets saying a17 is trash, but many MORE finding their reviews "most helpful".

 

THAT metric is one that tfp should take seriously.

[Scyris]

I've never really built a base in any 7dtd alpha, I usually took over a poi, or made a deep underground base. I hate building, even moreso in 7dtd with the structual intergrity system it uses. I'd build something nice only to place 1 more block than I should then the entire damn thing collapses. Underground bases just arent' viable with digging zombies, not to mention zombies that have super hearing and can somehow hear me doing somehting inside of a house basement, from 20-30 blocks outside the poi. Zombies ability to hear stuff thru walls really needs to be fixed. A gun shot i'd understand, but a melee swing, or looting a cabinet shouldn't be waking up zombies in other rooms. Stealth in b233 worked good, in b240 its back to how it was, with zombies having super hearing again. You even walk thru a poi and you'll wake up most of the zombies now.

[Scyris]

What even is the point of playing a survival game with hordes if you gotta use exploits... ? If it's too hard, turn down the difficulty. Heck, you can even choose for zombies to never run.

 

You can also mine all you want, I don't see the problem. Sure, you need to rank up the perks, but you can still do it, and there are plenty of options to choose from if all you wanna do is mine.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Don't know about you, but digging zombies have given me quite a lot of trouble for being dumb and thinking they wouldn't be able to come down. The threat of the zombies comes in numbers, but those numbers mean nothing if the player can use easy exploits to avoid any challenge the game throws at you.

 

Funny you say this, when the only way to have a base that really works in A17 is to exploit the hell out of the AI and how it paths. Otherwise they just tear everything down in minutes. I build a base in that big brown church, I build my base near the cieling with a hatchevator outside up to a hole in the roof, I knock out the back stairs, all zombies now only come in from the front, which I then hve a zig-zag maze, of barbed wire, and walls, leading to a ladder they can get to me with. Result? they follow my path exactly, and cause virtually 0 block damage. if I didn't do this, they'd just level the entire building. So were kinda forced to exploit the AI in a17 with how its currently setup.

[Guppycur]

Where does gameplay stop and exploit start?

 

Hard to say.

[Jugginator]

I guess all of the non exploit bases I've built in 17 were just dreams I had.

[OzHawkeye]

I decided to go check out the steam reviews.

 

I found most useless, but did decide that sorting by 1 weeks "most helpful" was very damning.

 

Many vets saying a17 is trash, but many MORE finding their reviews "most helpful".

 

THAT metric is one that tfp should take seriously.

 

Well, I also went through some of the reviews, sorted by Recent, and found very few Thumbs Down ones that were i) detailed enough to see what the player was complaining about, and ii) that I agreed with.

 

This is just my humble little opinion, but for example:

 

Melee class is♥♥♥♥♥♥early game, and I'd advise against it at any point really. Its only real helping factor is that weapon repairs for maces, etc are easy to come across early game. - absolutely not my experience so far in A17.

 

i mean its not bad but its not fun 2/10 - lacks any sort of detail, like this one: Alpha 17 or this one Its another sandbox survival mess. Run away for real not virtually.

 

This is another good example:

 

a year and a half update time to release an absolutely garbage patch. Sleeper zombies spawn literally right on you, daze you and kill you. No balance at all. Optimization....good luck the game looks terrible and destroys your cpu and ram. They should of just left the game like it was years ago in alpha 1 and 2 during kickstarter and kept it as a zombie minecraft clone. The game is just pathetic and its sad really as it used to be a very good game. Also seriously fun pimps can you make the combat animations any worse? Maybe I'm just spoiled from Ark and Conan Exiles as they have their issues but nothing compared to this game. - there's not a single part of this review that matches my experience in ANY build of A17 so far.

 

Now, I don't think A17 is perfect, far from it, and I've got a list of issues I hope will change / get fixed, but, my (cursory) read of some of the recent negative reviews (I skipped over the many positive ones), didn't yield a lot of actionable information I reckon.

[Scyris]

I can think of a few ways off the top of my head to completely avoid horde night using the new AI. One example is a double layered maze using doors place horizontally and/or draw bridges. Opening and closing the doors/draw bridges as the need arises to delay the zombies the entire night without having to fight even a single one.

 

There will always be ways to exploit AI that can't adapt to the circumstances. The main issue is taking away more and more playing styles. Why do that? This game was originally touted as minecraft with zombies and more for adults. The reason minecraft is loved is because of the crazy high amount of ways a player can play the game. Limiting a gamer's choices in a game that's suppose to be a sandbox isn't a good idea imo.

 

I know it might be a pain to do but highly optimized features can only add to the attraction of the game.

 

Actually you can outrun the horde on default settings on foot, even without rule 1 cardio. If you got a bicycle its even easier.

[Guppycur]

@oz I had expected to see the usual crackpot "tfp sucks" reviews like we see here, but most were just "a17 isn't as fun". If they didn't detail the reason, I didn't discount the review though.

[OzHawkeye]

@oz I had expected to see the usual crackpot "tfp sucks" reviews like we see here, but most were just "a17 isn't as fun". If they didn't detail the reason, I didn't discount the review though.

 

Oh, definitely, I wouldn't discount it, for sure, but as feedback, its perfectly useless.

 

That's a real shame too, because if A17 really has diverged from a significant portion of the playerbase, then it's important that .1, .2, .3 etc get it back on track (if TFP agrees with those view points), but that can only happen if the feedback is expressive (and constructive). Most of the negative steam reviews I went through weren't any of that - though, I stress, I spent only 10 minutes or so going back through the last 50ish reviews.

[Guppycur]

My guess is the feedback that IS presented, is representative of the whole.

 

Most people are lazy.

[OzHawkeye]

My guess is the feedback that IS presented, is representative of the whole.

 

Most people are lazy.

 

Agreed, which is why I do hope the Pimps consider the hot button issues that A17 has raised (LCB's for example, an option for digging zombies in the in game menu, bland RWG, very early stamina issues perhaps etc etc). It's just a shame that so many of the negative steam reviews are basically worthless as any form of feedback.

[Guppycur]

Dude. I think you might have missed Richards latest post. Good news on those fronts, they ARE aware of those specific concerns. So good news there.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?102621-The-State-of-Alpha-17

[OzHawkeye]

Dude. I think you might have missed Richards latest post. Good news on those fronts, they ARE aware of those specific concerns. So good news there.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?102621-The-State-of-Alpha-17

 

Thanks Guppy - been out at the girlfriends all weekend, so I had missed that one.

 

Good to see. :-)

[Guppycur]

Thanks Guppy - been out at the girlfriends all weekend, so I had missed that one.

 

Good to see. :-)

 

Oh, your GIRL friend... C'mon man, we know girls aren't real ...

[skullpoker]

*too short*

 

Clearly, they only need 2 difficulty settings: Fun/Immersion.

 

Group xp is a game changer it truely is... but I think we might use that world in a different context.

 

Promoting team play over PvP is the right way to go, so you are blatantly wrong.

[Exxodous]

Sorry to shorten your original text, but I'm tired but wanted to leave you with this:

If I bought red beans and opened the can, ate 30% and discovered that beneath there are green beans, I would be pretty sour.

 

 

LOL, but the great thing about this grocery store is that only have to go online, click on their drop down menu, choose red beans and they will send you a can of that.

 

To make this easier the code for those beans is 16.4

 

[Dunkurtin]

I tell you why.

Think of Skyrim. Now think that the first shout you get is a powerful "kill every enemy you meet instantly" shout.

Now enemies are worthless, nearly every other shout is worthless and basically 1/3rd of the game is basically gone.

 

"You don't have to use it! Why do you want to remove that shout? People enjoy that shout! How are people that dislike that shout negatively impacted?"

 

This is basically underground building.

You completely ignore the main incentive of the game. Namely: hordenight.

 

If you dislike the hordenight, disable it.

 

A survival game where survival is optional is not a good game.

And no its not less of a sandbox because of this.

 

You can still build underground that is safe 6.5 days of the week, but then you will need a base above ground to fight off the zombies on hordenight.

That is all.

 

 

It is rare that I agree with TFPs, but this is certainly one point that I agree with them.

 

Hiding is a survival option thought. Saying it isn't shows a complete lack of the core concept of the survival genre. Survival and sandbox go hand in hand when it comes to game mechanics. This isn't primarily a survival game anymore with the direction tfp are taking. It is an action game with light survival aspects.

[Jugginator]

The game isn't a pure survival game.. it has tower defense in the game description... that challenges you to survive the zombie hordes. Aka fight them, not run away and hide in a base that youll never have any danger in.

[JCrook1028]

I can think of a few ways to make the player character even weaker, so would that make it a better game then?

 

Possibly. It is still very easy to whack z's to death with a wooden club from D1.

 

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I couldn't disagree more with this statement. If you're making a "fun game" that gives you a horribly gimped character and your job is to grind all day to gain "perks" to make him "normal", that's just horrible design right there.

 

Yep, different people have different likes and dislikes. That's perfectly normal.

[meganoth]

Hiding is a survival option thought. Saying it isn't shows a complete lack of the core concept of the survival genre.

 

You are correct. And it is an option in A17 6.5 days in the week. But hiding in a survival game can fail. Like fighting you can improve your chances by getting better and having better equipment etc. but ultimately it never is 100% safe.

[JCrook1028]

I to not feel they deserve a thumbs up. The wait has been way too long for what we got.

I had much fun with previous alphas, but they were also flawed, with the promise "it will get better", so when it gets worse (if you tell me A17 overall is better I'm going to laugh. potential sure... with fixes sure... but as it is right now) this is a reflection on more than just this alpha, but on the game as a whole.

 

I do not know anymore if the game is recommendable, as I now doubt if the final product is recommendable.

 

 

A kid that is sat down on the chair and beeing explained what it did wrong also "listens", they just don't see their own fault in it.

I don't think they are bad or malicious people. Just that they are childishly stubborn. And their final product may be 10x better than A16, who knows.

But we bought a game that we enjoyed and they pulled it away, gave us another one and said: "this is the game you liked now!" and when we tell them "no its not" or "I liked the old one" we are just childish, kneejerking and hateful.

 

 

 

 

Okay I'll try and say this with as little emotion as I possibly can:

There are a lot of features that people liked that were removed, changed significantly or made unviable completely.

And they had a VERY clear trend that started with A16:

"Harder, not smarter! Slow it down not more content! Remove, don't fix! Gameplay is the non plus ultra, immersion is an afterthought!"

 

I do not feel anymore like this is a selfconsistent world. Mines on top of cranes, zombies in walls/cupboards/on top of breakable stoneroofs, gps zombies, 3 block jumps, rwg beeing scrambled and more.

 

All these things ruin something that players loved in favour of what TFPs love.

 

And if this were a new game, that might be fine. But you can not make a 180° change and expect the playerbase to still like it. Yes RPG is in the description of the game. But it also says this:

"Improve – Increase your skills in a multitude of active and passive disciplines. 7 Days to Die is the only true survival RPG with over 60 multi-tiered skill and perk groups."

but there are only 45 skills now.

Or it says "strategy". So should players expect the game to now go in a top down perspective?

 

It never was an rpg. And this patch DID do a complete 180° turn. And players are unhappy.

 

This is not an opinion.

I'm not saying making an rpg is bad, but the way they went about it was.

 

And the worst thing is that gazz and sometimes roland can sound EXTREMELY dismissive of criticism. This reflects badly on TFPs.

I only know that fataal takes in criticism. The rest? No idea. unholyjoe SAID they are... but I really don't feel it.

 

 

I start rambling again. This is such a complex issue.

No I don't think they should listen to everything I say. But I wish they would listen more us... no... not listen. But actually take it into account and put their own feels on the backburner.

 

But I'm tired, I'm just rambling. I know that they made it worse, even if some ppl like it. And they try and dismiss it.

 

Yes it is more RPG like than it was before. Not my fave direction either but, they have said from the beginning that was part of their goal so............it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

[JCrook1028]

Where does gameplay stop and exploit start?

 

Hard to say.

 

To me exploit in terms of base building starts when you force the z's to repeat a path over and over again rather than attacking you.

[Dunkurtin]

The game isn't a pure survival game.. it has tower defense in the game description... that challenges you to survive the zombie hordes. Aka fight them, not run away and hide in a base that youll never have any danger in.

 

Actually, in the description that all prospective buyer will see it is a survival horde crafting game. The tower defense being a primary focus is only in the original kickstarter. The steam descrition merely says it is a blending of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. TFP either need to stop using the "its a tower defence primarily" defence or start advertising the game accurately. And change the tagline in the banner. Because if survival and crafting are no longer primary aspects of the game (they aren't) then they shouldn't be using them as their primary descriptors. Maybe the banner should say action horde tower defence game going forward.

 

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You are correct. And it is an option in A17 6.5 days in the week. But hiding in a survival game can fail. Like fighting you can improve your chances by getting better and having better equipment etc. but ultimately it never is 100% safe.

 

It's an option that denies almost all progress, making it nowhere near as viable, which is why 7DTD A17 is survival-lite, not a survival game. It's an action game now, with some survival features. Needing to eat and drink is not enough to make it a true survival game.

[FileMachete]

On the digging z's:

 

I think a 'scent trail' would be quite a bit more fun. And realistic

 

Rather than the two extremes; simple, 'can't dig' of A16, & current go to directly above player, dig straight down of A17.

 

Scent trail could allow you to build the old hatch out in the middle of nowhere protecting your mineshaft. Z's path to hatch and break through. Come down access shaft, at bottom, or whereever, you've built a defensive spot, or 2 or 3. The pathing would/could keep the z's on that course, providing player with the opportunity to defend, or retreat.

 

As it is currently you can achieve basically the same thing, but it takes a lot more work. If you're building a large underground bunker you can just dig out 3 more blocks for a 'catch basin' that the z's will fall into, then in that large 'attic' over your base, just have a spot they can path to, then defend from there.

 

For the mine access inside of base, a scent trail could/would lead the z's to breach the base defenses first. Consider that you may well be out of hearing range. So you'd likely need/want to rig up an alarm system so you'd know you needed to haul butt to defend.

 

Certainly I've no idea how feasible it is, but it seems to me like it could be more fun & more realistic at the same time.