Viktoriusiii

Huh? If that were true, why does it need a DM? The DM creates, shapes and directs the world and players. If the players could do whatever without any continuity, it wouldnt be an RPG anymore. An RPG needs (percieved) consequences and a story. Once nothing you do actually matters, it isn't an RPG anymore, it is a sandbox. Which 7D2D absolutely is. "Do whatever! Freedom!"

Yes they are. It has NOT A SINGLE ELEMENT that is RPG specific. It just doesnt. That would be like saying Bloons TD is a Townbuilder because you place down towers. You are trying to argue the wrong point here roland. What players pretend to do with the game is not in any way relevant here. 1) no they dont. They have no character. They have a voice, but nothing more. What the player interprets is not important to the genre. 2) Okay. Just not a defining element. 3) What kind of narrative progression is there? You live in a bubble. An unaffected, unchanging bubble. Nothing you do matters to anything but yourself. In MMO-RPGs it doesnt matter for other players, but your personal world changes. 4) No there isn't. There is static worldbuilding. But that is all there is. 5) Irelevant again. Players don't make the game a genre. 6) Distributing points does not make a roleplaying character. It is certainly one possible part of an RPG, but without a character or narrative, they are just stats that tell you nothing about the character. This is the closest thing to an RPG it gets and it is so far away from what makes an RPG an RPG as to make it laughable. Yes the discussion is settled. But not the way you pretend it is.

Yea you actually brought that up a couple of times... but that is not how genre defines itself. If you feel like it makes roleplaying easier, I am happy for you. But just because I can roleplay as a roughed veteran that lost his wife and kids in a shooter like Call of Duty that rather charges straight in because he has nothing to live for instead of tacticially aproaching the enemy (which is technicially a choice) does not make it an RPG. The genre is define by what the game offers, not what the players make of it. No. It is a mechanic that is prevalent in RPGs, but not restricted to this genre, nor is it a necessity. Just because basicially every cat has ears, does not mean everything that has ears has "cat like elements" to it. But that is exactly what you are trying to imply here. I granted that your animal has ears, which is the closest thing to a cat that it has. That does not make it a cat. Actually it implies that it is so far removed from a cat that the only shared feature is the ears. The game is missing the genre defining features. So calling it an RPG is like calling a platypus a duck because of the similar feet and bill as well as name. It is misleading, because it is missing the core element.

the only feature they took is the mechanical progression. Progression does not make an RPG. It is a feature that comes along with RPGs, but also other genres (like techtrees in CIV and the like). Just because my game allows you to jump does not make it a "parcour" game. Even something small like the decision "do you want to clear 'XY-POI' reducing zombiespawns for 3 days or do you want to clear 'YX-POI' to increase merchant stash" would be an RPG element. But right now even quests (the most RPG element) are just inconsequential reward machines that do not impact the story nor the world. And that is what makes an RPG: a narative progression. And I am even granting that is a problem with the industry as a whole. I have thought of that as well. That these terms get thrown around as marketing ploys to lure in as many players as possible (which is why most games do not feature demos anymore, because then players would realize that they have been catfished).

I won't say anything about some of the other 100% things, because most of them are close enough (80%+) that I don'T mind that 100% mark. But... and I have said this multiple times: 7D2D IS NOT AN RPG!!! It is just not, no matter how much you cosplay as a cowboy while playing it. There is not a single decision to be made in this game. Only do or ignore. An RPG needs some sort of character progression. And I don't mean stats. It needs a story and it needs some sort of decisions to be made. These can even be forced (linear story). But this is not the case. Stop with this blatent false advertising. Yes it might be in the future... and I can't wait. There is no character. We play as a blob in human form. He doesnt speak, he doesnt make any decision (actively or passively). The ONLY feature even close to this is "character development" with stats. But if you think Fifa is an RPG because you can decide what training you do, you are mental. I will grant you most your points in your post. But that one is outright false. 7D2D is not an RPG. (I personally would even question the horror aspect... but I guess it does have jumpscares so... but compared to early versions... this is childmode ; but that is a personal, subjective opinion.)

Nah... if fans give valid feedback with reasons for why and how... they take it about as serious as ppl crying because they dislike it personally. But we've had this discussion so many times... Maybe I am totally wrong... but in all my time in the game and on this forum... not once did they prove me wrong.

Let me tell you: if complaining did ANYTHING for TFPs, this game would be a completely different game nowadays. They do not care. Much less about their "hardcore" fans. They only want to do their thing and get new players in. Everything else is at best an accidental result. Ammo was lowered because you can not have a horrorgame where you have more ammo than you can use. The ONLY problem is that hordenights need so much ammo. But that would go too deep into a core problem of the game... so let me just say it again: It wasnt about min/maxing, but to counteract the A17 change from horror survival to looter-shooter... at least a tiny bit. Try using melee for single zombies. Or bow/crossbows. If you can go in guns blazing, the whole concept lost its purpose.

You know... we COULD do a poll about this... :'D

7D2D is a dead game, @Kuosimodo is a living mystery! Everything about him or her is intriguing. So duh! Also the future of our souls are at stake. If Kuosimodoism really is true, then billions of peoples souls will not receive salvation through our Navazganian Father (or Mother)! So... you know...

We should ask the community about that! *polls away*

I could create a poll to see who is behind this idea!

Traprooms and bugs. When I am talking about traprooms I mean those completely invisible breaking blocks, weirdly placed mines or wall/roof zombies. I play on insane and even one hit can spell doom. So basicially anything where there is no way to avoid death, no matter how careful you are (except to know that this trap is there) gets me to ragequit. Before these traprooms were introduced, I had 9 deaths in 8 alphas and 700+ hours. After than I got like... 20 more in A17-19 alone. All except maybe two or three not my fault, just bs.

The only problem that I see is that pots are too easy to make. I think the idea is great. But MAYBE think about an item like activated charcoal (which needs lots of ingredients or even loot only) So murky water is 75% safe, cooked water is 95% safe and purified water is 100% safe. So you are never 100% safe except if you spend lots of ressources (so lategame, when you should be safe). I think drinking is such an easy target to make the world feel more apocalyptic... use it

I don't want this thread to lose its focus again. I want this to be as lighthearted fun as possible. But enough about that. Back to our lovely forumjesus. He appeared before us once to clean us from our sins. May we pray together to wait for his second arrival, where he shows us the way into 7d2d-heaven. You just need to believe and he will come!

I've never really said that before. I said "alienate", and what I meant was "they are even more unhappy". And if 5% of players never come back, but 50% of players come because of advertising... you wouldn't know, even if I had meant that. Indie games... I guess you are right. When you have the chance to become a casual game, I guess you better take it. I just like nieche games more that do not succomb to the lowest common denominator. I dislike the idea, even if I am not personally affected. I can critique something that is not directly influencing me, you know? Even if I knew none of those moles, I could still voice these opinions, if I thought they are overall degrading the game to some extent. I mean... you DO know that is a cop-out argument that any game could use, right? Bethesda doesn't have bugs, it has features. And if you don't like it, just install the unofficial patch. Not their responsibility to provide a game you like... It is not even officially supported... I am not championing for their cause. They are not my shield, they are but one arrow in a barrage of reasons, why I do not think this is a good choice.

I never said you'lll lose your entire playerbase. I always critique the gamedesign. Playernumbers have nothing to do with that. McDonalds being the most popular restaurant says nothing about the quality, but about their marketing and price. Lets be real, a DECREASE of playernumbers would spell doom... I mean the only time that happened was A17... and I don't need to tell you the feedback for that alpha... (worse than ATLAS on release!) but with enough media attention and nice christmas and summer sales... It isn't a BAD game per se... but it could be so much better... but I'll stop. I have wasted enough time on this. I just found that statement to be particularly egregious. The moles will certainly lose interest fast. But luckily, >95% of new players aren't moles. So you can rest assured, the game will not flop. But that was also never my argument. I don't like cheating. I don't like exploits either. I just want different approachmethods, instead of "go exploring or go f§$% yourself!" Neither am I. Not hypothetical. I've talked to loads of them, even if I don't remember their names. But that also was never the point. I don't need to be american to critizise the american president either. I agree. Moles are old time players for sure. No new player would go "oh yea! This is totally a game for me! Suffering to no end, just to be able to mine my tunnels. That sounds like fun!"

All of that missed the point. Sorry @Roland. Yes you are completely right. It just doesnt matter. Because gameplay and realism are both important. And if the realism does not give you ANY more fun, gameplay trumps it every time. So I want somewhat realistic falldamage, not because it is essential, but because it helps immersion and b it creates gameplayvariances. But in this case, all this realism doesnt add anything. It is not important, if on the other hand, you lose an entire playerbase, because they lose their playstyle. You can call it learn by reading all you want. Can you read without looting? (yes you can sometimes buy them at the trader... but I doubt there will be very many, because that is the point of the change... IF there will be like an entire books section that you can buy, I will redact ALL I have said here. If not, it is learning by looting(by proxy). You have to loot to be able to read. Which means, no matter how "realistic" it is, it completely invalidates the mole playstyle. Even if you can still buy all the tools and stuff... it is still another restriction on moles. For no realos other than "realism". You ALWAYS say that realism should not be taken too seriously in an apocalypse (I agree to some point, but only as long as the gameplay doesnt suffer from it!), so you should know better than to try and defend a feature with realism... This feature does not benefit the gameplayloop. It forces exploration even more, which is already the core. Which is, I guess fine... but not for moles, which is my only argument. I know people that like moling. And I think it is a bad idea, since (as mentioned) it doesnt offer anything but more lootfocus. I agree when it comes to experiences, but this is something that I do not need to experience to understand.

I'm not that kind of player. I like exploration and looting and doing quests. But there are other people that don't. And they aren't single digits. It is what they find most fun, but it is getting harder and harder for them to do BECAUSE of "lootable only" items. (that was the reason for their introduction! to force players to go out looting, because they didn't like that people just stayed at their base, moling all the time) And now they make it even harder.

Maybe not anymore bc of the new systems. But in earlier versions you could do everything from home. Since you leveled skills by doing them (or spending points that you gained by mining) you were able to craft anything you needed, and if you REALLY wanted, you could go to the trader and stock up. Nowadays with the uncraftable items and weapon/Armorparts, this has become really hard, but still possible, because you can still buy the tools you need from ressources you mined. And since you unlock items via leveling, you can simply spend your skillpoints there. Not ideal in any way, but still at least SOMEWHAT plausible. If you now could not even get better without looting, that would be the deathnail, but as stated, that was a misunderstanding on my part. But still... all recipes being locked behind looting makes this already very hard playstyle nearly impossible. So yes, it is already hard. That is why I was questioning the designchoice, because it makes it even harder for ppl that enjoy that part of the game.

@Jost Amman I think what he means is that I (former) said that it looks like these lootable schematics increase the already insane drive to go out looting, which will alienate people that don't want to go looting and just want to play mole, builder and farmer on their land. Then you (latter) said that this is just what it is and that looting is the core gameplay and if you don't like it, you should just leave.

that is a deathtrap-loop they are worried about though. I constantly keep my best gear on me. So destroying everything would set me back a lot... but not my gamestage, therefor making it far more likely for me to die again and again.

sorry... I might have had a few drinks too much when I wrote it and became kinda cocky. But my point still stands. It is as with most features in this game: They'd rather remove it than actually try and balance it. And yes I believe you that they think about the balance of those features. But it doesnt FEEL like it. Every time... they remove a feature instead of balancing it, even when a solution seems SUPER obvious and easy... It feels more like a child that is done playing with the new toy.

This is typical for TFPs though. They do something without balance and then remove something completely, rather than balancing it. I am pro deathpenalty. Dying to get stronger is stupid. But THAT particular deathpenalty did the one thing you shouldnt ever do: limit the players movement (by making them slower, less stamina and less inventory). Basicially if you were full, you couldn't get everything or crawl at snailspace, meaning you die again. Stackable death debuffs that need rare items to fix it would be great. How about instead of "on hit" they make infection (or something similar) "on death"? And it increases every death by 2-10% (based on difficulty) Now you need to find an antidote, which is rare and only in high tier towers. This debuff is minimal, but will get pretty strong. Instead of debuffing the player, there will be less zombies around (it lowers the gamestage by a %) you and at 30% the trader stops giving you quests and at 70% he doesnt trade with you anymore, at 100% your own turrets see you as a zombie. The higher the % the higher the chance for an antidote though. And the trader usually has one on hand every restocking. Meaning it will either cost gold or you need to find it. This means you will probably never get into a deathspiral (because everyone has money and Z's are weaker, but so is the loot) it encourages to go out there to get looting/questing and the player is not any weaker than before, but the debuffs make it still better to avoid it. This is something whipped up in 10 minutes of thought and is already better than anything they tried so far. And it could be so much more... Currently they have the levelgating of deathpenalties (XP punishment? really?) uncreative, unrewarding, uninteresting and without any impact.

See? This is how you troll. When you are 99% serious, it works, even on... uhm... stupid claims 😈 (sorry @meganoth 😉)

Yes! 100% Just ask @Roland. Or just try it out, if you don't believe him.