theFlu

Does that imply that more experienced players would have other means of obtaining a filter? If so, currently there's about 5%* chance per map to obtain one, so from that I'd say "maths isn't one of TFP's strong suits". Sure, "TFP + maths" hasn't always been great, but I don't think it's ever been That bad.. *Number is obviously pulled out of my rear, but it's probably actually lower. That's mostly semantics. If you wish it called "not supported" instead of "destroyed".. eh, point of view difference, the end result is the same. Gating all gear progress behind the "number of POIs you've looted" kinda has the obvious side effect of removing any progress if you're not looting POIs. Looting POIs is the one chosen way for A21. That will effectively remove all other playstyles and they're at least testing the complete removal of those other playstyles with A21. The water changes fit neatly in a subset of "looting POIs" -playstyle, I won't believe for a minute that's by accident. Sure, they might not be set in stone with the changes, but there also might be a gorilla standing right behind you.

That seems to have been a quick quickening, thanks!

If it's gone every login, it's a bug. Possibly to do with the chunk regeneration, or a corrupted region file or something (so it never gets saved). Do you have any errors in console?

It's a game. It's not going to become dangerous, so "annoying" is the worst it can do.

For what it's worth, I disabled my ad blocker for this site today - didn't seem to help, still getting the single tickbox captcha. I've lost a couple replies to that, sometimes it just doesn't even post after the check. Which is why even this reply is now in a notepad waiting as a backup. Well, more like - now!

As my position on "reduced choices" seemed to be poorly understood, I'll flesh it out a little. It might be off topic, sure. Most of my new game starts have been "normal" .. get to a trader, start questing and settle down in a POI near the trader. These go on for 3-5 weeks, until they feel dull, repetitive and I just stop. Either I restart, or go play something else. A good third, if not more, of my games since I started have been "start building on day one, do as little as possible else." Total "Mines of Moria" playthroughs, or just wilderness building.. these usually have lasted for 70-100 hours per, some much past that. It's clearly the style I prefer, it keeps me entertained. A21 neutered that playstyle entirely, by two changes. The books is the bigger one, can't do a Moria with a lvl 1 stone axe. But the water nonsense alone is sufficient to stop me from even trying. So, if I'm arguing against the water change, it might be because it obliterated my favored playstyle choice. Half my time spent in the game, gone. If a choice between "can I drink this water or make glue out of it" is all I got to fill that gap, well, you might see why I'm rather miffed by the idea.

Seems we largely agree on what we'd want; your example of reducing POI water and adding treatment for natural waters would be mostly acceptable to me (with a proper balance ). I just don't think it would be seen as a "rebalancing" by TFP, it'd be a redesign. The big feature changes introduced in A21 (water, books) seem to be in the direction of "quest more, or else", and the introduction of physics-breaking spawn mechanics seem to indicate they're planning for FPS/quest spam to be da wae.

Yes, you can do "no quests", you can also do "no traders". But you're still going to be spamlooting POIs for the H2O. If you're not questing while spamlooting POIs, in vanilla, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, gimping yourself is a choice, indeed. Yay. I can also start a base-day-one challenge, and die of thirst repeatedly while building. Nothing's stopping me from that either. I guess I'll need to just laugh while doing so and things will be fine. That's a newly introduced choice too, so, yay for more choices. I'm not. I just find Roland's claim that "introducing a choice between drinking and crafting is somehow an improvement" a little thin. It comes at the expense of logic and a "wilderness survival" way of playing the game. For vanilla, POIs = questing. My single sentence snark didn't properly contain that bit. Apologies.

Hmm... I don't think it's a case of simple balancing, but what do you have in mind? What would solve it?

Introducing that choice, "can I afford to craft => no", came at the expense of another choice, "can I build a base, or do I need to start questing now?". In my book the loss in choices is far greater than the gain.

Been having this for myself; Ubuntu LTS, up-to-date Firefox, running uBlock Origin and a Privacy Badger. So, as meganoth runs similar without the blockers, it seems it should be those.. I would test if it was a 100% repro and thus easy to confirm, but since it isn't, meh; I'll live

Yeh, just did a little test in my test world (old world, patch 21.2 b30), can confirm that 75% & 50% seem correct, 50% having halved your regen. At 50% you also get a small reduction to your Max sta. Kinda just saying, don't aim for "not getting hurt by the lack", more like "Am I going to need sta? => Drink" kind of deal.. helped me Carrying the water in the bottle isn't going to be consuming it any slower than having it in your gut, so unless you plan on getting lit on fire, you should have little reason to wait. Well, my main point was that "balancing a broken system won't help".. but indeed; it might not be a "multiplayer experience to aim for", but it will always be possible (unless they implement some new mechanics to hinder groups from splitting up). If it came down to actually Having to split down to a trader per player for reasonable success, I'd argue the traders need a hefty nerf and the world a buff Yeap, we're agreeing on this part. EDIT: "might not BE"

My problems with annoying icons went away when I decided to treat it as follows: 1) Your thirst meter basically reduces your sta regen linearly. If it's not full, you're basically losing some already. (This might not be exactly correct, but it's closer to reality than what the warning icons suggest.) 2) You get an extra ~20% regen from having the "recently drank" buff on you. That buff lasts for minutes if you are already at "full thirst". Using a bottle of water whenever I expect to use reasonable amounts of sta, just for the buff, gives me as a side effect a full thirst bar all the time ... no more annoying icons

Sure, I'll grant that water is limited in the early game with the current design; but it's not something I can work for. It, like everything else solves itself by doing the Good Boy -loop. You just "don't craft" for a couple days and you're set. It's not an interesting problem, it doesn't change my choice of actions in any way, it's not a "game problem". Now I don't even need to craft my own jars and pot to solve it, it just solves via quest spam. Coops, balancing is its own issue, but coops always have the option to divide into single player groups, so it shouldn't be any harder - if the advantages of group play aren't large enough to feed a base mama, then you can't afford to play in such a way. Don't get me wrong, I think group play should have its own balance, but it's even harder to pin down than solo; and its going to be absolutely impossible if solo is already broken. But this issue is pre-balancing; the crafting system is broken enough to need to limit lake water from being used. Balancing this system will keep both lakes and crafting broken, thus I'm hoping for changes in crafting, not just balancing of this one. I don't think I'll get what I want, realistically; but I'm talking on a forum, so, that should go without saying. Dark souls is famous for its realism in nutrition... No, I don't want the game to be SCUM either, with several nutrition types needing to be separately filled. Mostly because that is based on a model of nutrition science that doesn't line up with actual reality, you'll do perfectly fine on just beef alone... No, I'm not expecting massively difficult water game play; I'm hoping and proposing a system that - doesn't break survival realism unless absolutely needed - introduces "playable" mechanics to solve the issues (ie, going for a "water trip" is different from going to a "gun finding" mission) - does basic survival things on a level where new players will suffer some ill effects, maybe even straight up death - AND experienced players will most of the time have to actually DO the survival thing too. Not just skip it via quest spam.

I hear ya, I wouldn't read these myself if it wasn't highlighted as annoyingly unread ... Would be nice to have all new ones merged into an existing one, for sure - but that can be somewhat annoying as well, depending a little how well the forum SW handles it. More work for the mods thou. New people will always be making new threads, and a couple of new ones were born while typing this sentence ...

I wasn't arguing about difficulty, and I don't think @drgnkght was either; I was arguing about your opposition to the term "artificial scarcity". This is almost literally a textbook example of the term; "buy all the wells in an area, start selling water to the residents at an inflated price". Here the buying of the wells is the disabling of the lakes and the price is you looting or literally working for the trader for coin to buy the water. Just because the price is "low" doesn't make it less of "artificial scarcity". Indeed. I'm proposing to fix the thing logically (ie following real world logic as far possible) and even said early ITT it'd be a lot of work. There's no level of completeness I could propose without actually modding it in that wouldn't be subject to "you didn't fix this part yet". If you're worried about the 3 listed reasons, then here: 3) Don't bring back empty jars when implementing the following 2) Fix crafting by not relying on number of duct tape 1) Turn the current "drinking from lake" into a "take water from a lake" which spawns one of the current item "Murky Water". Turn, or make a copy of, the current "Dew Collector" into a "Water filtering station", have it take murky water as input and produce clean water as output, time limited and trader limited. Change the camp fire recipe for water from clean water into "less toxic water" - so you can survive safely on lake water, but don't really want to. Or, you know, even the requirements are malleable and/or quite poorly met as is; is it Really that important that water survival is a problem when it clearly isn't an issue even now, if just do the Good Boy thing and do some quests?

Indeed; which relates to the reason why I brought up explosives at all. If crafting multiple wooden bows is an issue, limit the availability of bow parts. Fix the crafting logically, instead of making everything use rolls upon of rolls of duct tape held together by duct tape and waterproofed by duct tape. It's a cute post-apocalyptic joke, but please don't take it far enough to have to disable lakes to maintain it ... 😛

" 2.) With unlimited duct tape people could craft OP quantities of things early game. Now its a choice, do use my water to craft duct tape, or do I drink it. " I may be off about it being about explosives, but limiting glue production was absolutely stated as a reason.

I agree. But I do seem to remember "too easy crafting of explosive arrows" being one of the reasons given for the change. It may have not been an actual reason though, it's not like TFP have explained it detail here and none of us have been at the design tables... I tend to agree even without the IF I'd say this is basically the definition of artificial scarcity; which is a bit of a feat, usually it requires laws to stop people gathering their own lake water, but here it was managed via breaking physics already. Nestle is jelly right now.

Well, it Could. But for now it doesn't, and the water is still drinkable with no sign of infection, only a risk of dysentery. This is why I phrased it "drinkable AND unusable", you can drink it, just not make glue out of it... but why? The other way around might be easier to explain.. And even if a lore reason would be given, distillation is still a thing IRL. Getting pathogens to evaporate along with water and survive the process... really? Even "Dew" is drinkable and that is just evaporated and condensed puddle water anyway.

They seem a little lost in a forest of their own creation. They wanted to get rid of the jars and jar management in favor of more interesting things. This seems fine to me, I don't miss the inventory / loot table clutter. They also wanted to limit the amount of explosives people can craft early... as the only non-gunpowder ingredient to limit for exploding arrows is duct tape, they wanted to limit That. Just .. why? Make a new form of "gunpowder", "High Explosives" and make it a slow / expensive craft in the chem station. Or something, whatever. Whatever else! Puddle Water should not be drinkable AND unusable; don't try to fix a convoluted crafting system by breaking from real world logic just to rate limit something silly. And please just get rid of the duct tape anyway, having your drones be better the more rolls of tape you use on them is just wrong. You can bring back some tape for some items that are a good fit like cloth armor and splints, but don't use it as a sink... The situation would require a crafting overhaul, which would be a lot of work, but please! Pretty please Do it, you want it to make sense!

An officially supported version of tea-baggery, polishing your wood at your victims? I approve

From this and the "red clock" BM warning being at 0800, I'd guess the check happens at 0800.. "Is it blood moon tonight? No idea, we don't even know when the next BM is, let's figure that out first!"

What Sylen said sounds about right; but what about explosive arrows?

That's the spirit, all natural-like .. Yeh, for me they are interchangeable, I used "proper 3rd person" as a descriptor earlier, meaning essentially the same thing. A whole story where I see the design for controllers being solely driven by the consoles and then game development following the decisions from there - "we have two thumb sticks, one controls the aim, but we gotta do something with the other as well ... - I know, free camera!" Whenever a game feels designed for two thumb-sticks == "console game" in my head .. Yeah, no, I'm not advocating for adding such things in any FPS, I'm not bothered about it at all. Just offering the OP some ideas where his expectations might stem from. I wouldn't cry foul from adding smooth visuals to both 1st and 3rd person modes (as long as the controls are still not turn rate limited). That would probably require a whole new system to have the characters gun, hands and head smoothly follow the aim while the body would do some delayed sidestepping & shuffling animations to "catch up realistically". Not really worth the dev time in my opinion, though. I hadn't even heard of Marathon before, had to google it... sounds curious, but yeh, I can see the usefulness for a side look when your turn rate is limited due to being a keyboard implementation, but heh, "keyboard turner" is an insult nowadays.