Mechanimal

Loving all the new assets, but the permanently open and therefor unusable containers, like fridges, stoves, etc... hate it. Like why not just reclose the door if we put stuff in it instead of turning everything into an un-interactable prop? I'd always setup in kitchens for example, putting food in the empty fridge, campfire on stovetop with storage in stove... ugh, as much as I want to play A21 it has already ruined my motivation to continue at all. Noticed the Neebs crew are also not big fans of the change in their video. Guess I'll wait and see if anyone fixes it with mods before I play again.

Yeah this is tricky to pull off. Another game I play a ton(Star Citizen) is working on a way to do this, as well as vaulting and climbing animations, and have even showed some promising clips of it all working well, like being able to look around and even fire a weapon while on a ladder, as well as jump off and onto ladders at different points, slide down it, etc... alas it is not in-game yet(SC is infamous for this), so... But it did look like it worked well, it's just really complex setting up all the character rig constraints for all situations. Plus to make things even trickier that overall game environment has varying levels of gravity, and EVA animations, to figure out. But it could be a year or two, or more, before it is in our hands to play with and test. ANYWAY... I used to check in on this forum daily, but it's been what feels like forever. How's progress on the next update going? I miss this game.

- I think a good compromise would be to have quest missions NOT repeat, at all, per player/trader. Or at least label each quest with an unique title of some kind, something easily recognizable, not just a generic quest-type and distance, so we can at least decide at that moment instead of 500m later when we pull up to it, roll our eyes, and cancel the quest. Not sure how that'll work on an MP server, I tend to play more SP. Would be great for SP play(my style anyway), I would def go further per playthrough, but for now I get bored way too early, repeating quests is a huge part of why that happens. I want what I do in the world to matter, be permanent. POIs poofing back to life ruins that feel. - Same. I too wish weapon types were not married to attribute categories. Since this change I mostly ignore the weapon aspect of each category and just use weapons I'm barely or not at all spec'd into regardless. What I use is typically determined by RNG'd loot, I rarely if ever craft weapons because I have to spec too far into it to make a decent one, and tend to find/be rewarded something better in the meantime. For example I always use a bow early/mid game, but rarely if ever spec into it. Often happens with tools too. Spending points to craft better versions, of anything, feels like an unnecessary waste of skill points more often than not. Just little tweak suggestions, still feel A20 is a major step forward overall. Plus who knows how A21 will shake things up, yet again. Still get tons more replayability than the vast majority of games, and that's saying a lot from an EA effort. Too many game alpha's out there that aren't anywhere near as polished/playable along the way(SC, omg I love/hate that one.), or even in release state. No other game in my library, of nearly 200 games, has anywhere near the playtime as my 3,550 hours in 7DTD.

I think an option to turn off quest repeats in options menu would be awesome... for my play style anyway. I prefer to see the world around me change throughout a playthrough, and stay that way. I turn loot respawn off entirely nowadays. If I looted a building and then got a quest there I would be fine with that happening once, only. After that I'd prefer to move out to other towns for fresh loot, POIs and quests. It also solves another issue I had when quests were first introduced: making certain POIs off limits for base building, something that never mattered before suddenly does. But if an option for non-repeat quests was on then I'd know which buildings became available once I did a quest there. I'd also likely stick to playthroughs longer, lately I tend to get bored around midgame and start a new map because the world feels more and more fake over time as the POIs around me magically regenerate. For now I just quit a quest when I get to a repeat and recognize it, even though that wastes even more time overall, I personally find it a mild nuisance and worthy compromise. So in the meantime/alpha days these things can be managed by player behavior, "fine, I'll do it myself". I do hope such a thing is in by Gold though. I also think, and it's only an opinion, that both loot respawn & repeat questing should be off by default, mainly because it dramatically promotes adventuring out and makes longer games feel far more real. But that's me, and obv not the best idea for MP games, mainly SP and maybe small/private MP games, just spitballing on the topic.

I'm still waiting for the day someone mods in a mofuggin Tunnel Boring Machine. Seriously:) I played a ton of modded minecraft with my son when he was younger and one of my fav mods was Railcraft. It added one of these and I loved that thing. We also added Galacticraft, so of course I went to Mars and created tunnel networks with them. Dug out a large room(hub), set one up pointed in each direction, fill with mats(gravel for holes and tracks, it lays the tracks too!) and fuel, press go and walk away. We also always added Buildcraft, which had piping systems(with sorting, both for objects as well as fluids(water, or oil pipelines to make rocket fuel, for example). They all also added more raw mats etc, and neat multiblock vats where you could see material build up inside, stuff like that. I've yet to see any mods in this game go to such lengths. It was some of the most fun I've ever had in a voxel engine. Wonder if we'll ever one day see such systems added to 7dtd, either vanilla or via mod(s). If nothing else I do hope we get more electrical system and trap attention before Gold, building on the Tower Defense aspect of the game.

*yet! - There are no long underground tunnels to explore, yet. That and more realistic highways would be super neat. Be super cool if there were like one or two major highways cutting across a map. They conveniently tend to be long, straight and deliberately try to line up with the cardinal directions, so it feels like it would work out well with this engine and new tile system. Like the full 4 lane(2 each side) minimum with a wide median area like is across most of the US, with the big grassy middle and 2-4 lane wide grass patches on either side. Then either a sharp forest line or fence. It could have it's own "POI" spawn areas too, akin to smaller remnants or those little booth POI thingies and car accidents/construction, especially at over/under passes. Then it would be cool to have gas stations at the exit/on ramps, farms with fences right up to the grassy edges, etc. Would be a super neat way to more "realistically" grow/build the various communities, sprouting off from the highway(s). And there could of course still be back roads and cities off on their own. I'd think hopefully both the underground/subway as well as highway systems could exist as their own tile groups? The subway build there now feels like it is part of the tile, not an inserted POI. If this kind of thing were ever an option in the RWG menu, to have one or two highways cutting straight up/across a map, I would basically always have it on. Have driven cross the country twice irl, took the southern route to LA, then up the coast and took 80 out of San Fran for the northern route back to the east coast... this simply be the structure of our major arterial roadways. I think the new RWG tile system feels ripe to make something like this happen, would certainly make gen'd worlds feel more custom built, realistic, and fun to navigate. Also Merry Holiday.

Nice, thanks for making an adjustment so quickly, though I fear such tweaking has just begun, that is a great start. I wasn't just concerned for how players were effected by this change, you guys just unleashed a balancing nightmare on yourselves, I feels for you all too ya know. Took yourself from a "one and done" variable with happy players eager to build, to what could easily be a neverending series of adjustments to 1,400 individual blocks with dissapointed/confused players now stricken with build anxiety. Still got my neck brace on from the creative whiplash, lol. Anyway, hope it resolves smoothly and doesn't produce a perpetual headache, for either the devs or players. Either way I'm stickin around to find out, just glad I got to experience that one sweet week before this monkey wrench came flying in.

I think, if this change continues to mutate(can't see how it won't tbh), the glaringly big problem, in the current iteration, is that -75% HP is not also -75% material cost. I imagine that is an oversight/balance issue that will get dealt with in some way, hopefully soon, but until then I am not base building. Once that happens I can, and will, deal with reduced HP block builds. Is there even an argument that reduced HP blocks should still require the same material cost? Can't imagine there is, but I'm poking for a try.

I'm not angry, just dissapointed, confused, and worried that it will ever be as good again. That's my honest initial reaction to this change, reporting otherwise would be dishonest of me. I can, and likely will, be charmed into accepting the "more realism" aspect, eventually, hopefully. Again I am in the "prefers realism" camp, but I have much higher expectations of it. It's just super easy, almost impossible not, to fail. I cannot fathom how this new "shape/mass reflects HP and Structural Integrity" variable can be realistically implemented without entirely new super complex simulation level algorithms taking into account volume and mass distribution and how shapes of blocks effect each other. Talk about taxing your engine, jfc. But I also don't expect the devs to go that far... and THAT is the problem. There will inevitably be pieces that fail and shouldn't, and those that hold up and shouldn't. So now we have to learn nearly 1,400 shapes and their unique properties, when before they were just all the same and all was fine, build, go! Now it's a mess that may never recapture that feeling. I can see how there are people that want this, and have wanted it before, my being one of them, but I am an actual realist, thus I do not think it is possible with the current engine, tools, and existing hardware. That's why I was happy with the existing compromise, this engine is already a step ahead from a voxel engine like Minecraft in it's implementation of Structural Integrity in the first place, even though it is only on a per block level... is THAT going to change. Is the structural analysis now going to take into account the geometry of each shape? No, would be nice but not going to happen on someone's desktop, this feels like a generic attempt to do that without actually doing it, and I am thus worried about the results. But yeah, it is experimental, let's continue and see what happens, of course I will play either way, and have faith they'll end up somewhere fun/workable enough. But remaining silent on this would not be genuine of me as a player, and thus not helpful/informal to the devs, so this is my 2 cents.

Ok you're right, this is experimental. Changes are made and feedback is given. This is my feedback, I think it was fine, good even, as it was. Although I do prefer realism, I also have much higher expectations of it. For example, now a single pole, triple pole, and triple pole with 2x support beams, all have the same HP... which is a NOPE from me. Before I just knew they were all the same. It's a "simple generic" vs "complex generic" change in variables, the latter of which is a never-ending nightmare of inconsistent and irregular variables, and uses, and strong opinions, etc. So, my feedback to devs is this: - As it was, with all blocks having the same HP, it was fine. Really greased creative gears, and was straightforward to deal with. - Now, with variable HP, I have very high expectations that you get it right, and I doubt you ever will. I think this is an ATTEMPT at more realism, and I do not think it will go well. I would love to be proven wrong, if this works out then I will be happy. But I feel obligated to let them know that the way it was on release was especially awesome. Aside from the random weirdos that for some reason care way too much about how other people play/build, and derive pleasure from their suffering(get help, seriously), I heard not a soul complain about all blocks having equal HP per cubic meter/material. That being said, if they DO somehow pull this off realistically, I will be happy. But without adding yet another layer of complex structural geometry analysis, and part volume calculation, I don't see how that can ever happen. But again I'd love to be proven wrong, seriously, good luck hashing this one out;)

I actually buy the realism argument or less mass = less HP, ok. But then I look at the array of ~1400 shapes and think, how are they going to calculate that? Is a one pole piece the same as a 3 pole piece? Are they taking into account angular support? Are they going to just calculate volume on each piece multiplied by a set HP value per cubic meter, etc etc, and so on. That's what I meant by opening Pandoras Box... but I used the wrong box metaphor, this is definitely a Can of Worms situation. We went from smooth and set conditions, that managed taking an enormous library of shapes and presenting them in a surprisingly well working menu system that was even easy to navigate. That alone is hard to do in the first place, but then introduce a "simple" variable like this and... pffft.. there it goes, good luck EVER getting those worms back into that can again. Base building is going to be far more complicated now. Will I hate it? Well if, and I do mean IF, they get these worms back in the can, I might honestly prefer it, because I do like realism... when implemented well. I do a lot of physical engineering irl, so IF done well I should end up liking this, hopefully. But aside from robots I also worked a ton in natural history, mostly birds and dinosaurs, point being I am very familiar with how the SHAPE of mass contributes to strength, example being bird bones. Far less mass but just as strong, I implemented this many times in irl robot designs(one even ended up in the Smithsonian), so I USED to do a lot of this in my bases, honeycombing and framework, the new pole shapes(corner angles and 3-way) were perfect, preserving strength but increases visibility, and WOULD be strong irl. Now I can't, even though I KNOW it would work irl. This is yet another aspect of what I mean by invoking next level realism being a can of worms. They won't get it right, maybe close, eventually, but it is always going to have flaws, where-as before it just had it's own flavor of physics, as all games inevitably do since they cannot fully embrace reality down to the atoms and quantum field behaviors(mass/gravity, light, etc). I always try to make my bases look real, structurally sound, but now I can't even do that, because the block HP is "complex generic" in it's distribution, and always will be, now. I dunno, just sad that it worked as-is and I was on an adventure with it, had a few neat structures built, with a growing plethora of new ideas and plans, then poof, now I have just turned off horde nights altogether and will explore the new cities and POIs until these gatdang worms get the F back in their mf-ing can.

Boy oh boy, talk about opening Pandoras Box with this block change. Shame cause the launch of A20 was so smooth, aside from maybe the farming change(I can farm just fine, so twas worry over nothing imho). Nearly everyone, including myself, seemed so excited... for like a week. Now no one knows what is going to happen by the time this issue settles back down and gets finalized. Wish we at least got more time with it before it got so obfuscated and unhinged all of a sudden. This could honestly turn into a never ending series of adjustments over what block has what HP, and costs what, gives x amount of HP, etc and so on. How are you going to let players know those stats in the menu? Will block menus now have tiers/sorting for block strength? Jfc you pulled off making a menu of nearly 1400 shapes not seem overwhelming or confusing, it was great,... and then this, trainwrecked it. The change just causes a TON of turbulence when things were smooth, exciting even, like a new toolbox opened up... aaand was suddenly shut. Like, this change should have been hashed out behind the scenes, first, even for an alpha, imho. Releasing it in the state it was, which I saw no one, no one, complain about, and then pulling this move a mere week into the alpha, which has tons of players now in base-building limbo, is a weird af decision. Any dev input on this(it's been mainly us so far) would be greatly appreciated. Like, xplain to me, please, why you do dis?

We're reacting to the change, a dramatic one at that. That's what these forums are for, discussing the changes as this thing mutates and grows. Again I just think this one is currently out of balance, if it sticks it should be, and likely will, go through yet more balance changes. Hopefully not a neverending constant update to what blocks are what now. It was easy before, greases the creative gears, now it's far more complicated, and that is a creative hinderance, period. Why you and a few others become obsessed with how other people play is a weird kind of sickness. I don't build cheese bases, but I just abandoned my 100 hr playthrough because my perimeter wall went from 5000HP to 1250 HP overnight and I don't want to deal with it now. The pieces aren't a single pole in mass either, more like 3 times the mass of a pole, but still got grouped with pole blocks. Was a neat ass wall too, oh well, I guess. If the material cost was reflected I might just upgrade it to steel, cause the cost would not be 10 pieces per -75% HP results it gave, so I'd adapt to that. But at full mat cost the least they could do is balance that out. Still won't like it, but I'd adapt and accept the realism argument. I do think that's the kind of feedback TFP needs and part of what this forum is for. Being obsessed with how others play is your own weird issue to resolve.

I don't build cheese bases, and I don't care who does either. Who hurt you?

I think, currently, it's mainly a balance issue. I'll buy the realism argument when: - the material costs reflect HP proportionately. - larger blocks get equivalently more HP(and can cost more too, ok). - pre-existing and all POI blocks follow the same rule/logic. Until then it's just a devastating blow to base building, after that it's just an unfortunate detriment that can eventually be shrugged off. I agree it would make more sense, smaller/less massive blocks have less HP, but ONLY if materials cost is mirrored in that. Regardless I'll never forget that one shiny week where base building was at it's peak awesomeness. However this gets resolved I am afraid that level of creative sweetness may never get recaptured. ... Also... what's with iron bars now upgrading to concrete... and then steel? Right... right? I sure hope so, fine if can then be steel, rly confusing nerf if not. Like, I'll just use the other railings and upgrade those to steel then. Wait, is their HP nerfed too? These changes just feel like a huge uneccessary ripple in what was once a smooth and soothing pond. But we'll wait and see what sifts out. I adapted fine to the farming changes, just weird to go from excitement over base building to suddenly having HP anxiety over what piece is what now.

I think the combo of -75% HP while still at 100% mat cost in the current iteration is the extreme problem. If that were at least balanced, so -75% HP at -75% mat cost, there would be a dif debate about this change. Like, I would still be ugh on it and consider it an unhealthy blow to base building, but I would adapt and deal, probably end up liking it eventually. But as is, in this patch, nope. Started a new game, stopping the one where I was super into base building, and am just gonna focus more on exploring the new POIs, with minimal base building, until next patch. I imagine this will not stay as it is in this patch for long.

Yeah... I'm surprised your the only one that's so far mentioned this one, give it another few days. I, just, don't even know why this even happened, and am especially confused as to why the material/upgrade cost wouldn't also be adjusted the same way. Like, one way or the other, or just put it back the way it was. Reducing block HP by 75% is no subtle nerf, jfc. But to still require the same amount of material to get there is an off the charts mistake. I was having fun with the new shapes, so much for that I guess. I am highly skeptical this will stay as it is in this patch, it'll either revert to the way it was(ideal) or upgrade cost will be reduced to reflect the lower HP values(unfortunate, but tolerable. Still a massive blow to base building). Can't imagine how or why anyone could be happy with this cruel and unusual change. So if someone can manage to defend this, please try, lol.

Not sure how well the stealth is working, but right now I am typing this as I wait out the night... underground... in a city... in the wasteland. I shall not as much as scratch my nose until I hear that morning jingle. I have not perked into stealth at all except for one level of Hidden Strike, but that's just a damage bonus, gives me no extra stealthiness. This is only my second time in the wasteland this playthrough, the first was an amazingly fun super scary night of WHAT THE F EVEN IS THAAAAT... NOPE... I am shocked I survived(albeit barely). I had not even yet been to the desert, nor the snow, and THOUGHT I was just taking another "Restore Power" quest in the forest biome, but Jen sent me to the wasteland... restore power is a night thing... it was on a farm, a big open farm where every high level Z could see and join in. And they did, I ended up cornered in a little shack with hatches on the doors, my trusty turret, and a dream of seeing daylight once again. Was one hell of an intro to how much biomes stage things up. Haven't been that challenged in a long time... except for right now as I listen to all the footsteps above me, just waiting for me to make the slightest sound before I go up and clear that Level 5 skyscraper... in the morning of course. This really is a substantial alpha TFP, I only started in A16 but have over 3k hrs already. Heard many stories about how cities used to be scary AF, had to imagine that, but not anymore. Too many awesome things to congrats you on this time around, wish me luck(I'm in danger).

Oh, cool. I checked the Twitch channel and Youtube and could not find it. Ty sir.

I missed the stream, and they take forever to post it, both on Twitch and Youtube, which I don't understand because it's raw and unedited. So maybe next week sometime. Sounds fun tho, rly want to know more about these new shutters.

Oh, so it really is that bad, oof. What is the point of the silencer then, seriously, why bother. I know they aren't totally silent irl, but making them silent enough to not wake sleepers would make sense, otherwise, again, what is the point. As for wandering hordes, I handle those differently, stealth is the last thing I'm worried about. Usually solved via molotov & AK, or if I am in the mood I'll kite them all around and take'm out one by one with a bat. Nades are fun if I have'm. When I "level up" stealth I only really get the damage increase perk, don't bother with the increased silence stuff as it does not seem to make a difference. I can successfully stealth a POI as things are, with a bow & stone arrows. Headshots are key, until you level up that damage anyway, then it gets easier and even body shots can be a one shot kill.

Well of course a hunting rifle is gonna hurt more than a bow, and I too use them, but they definitely violate the concept of stealth. I'm not gonna wake up half the sleepers in a POI just to get one headshot. And again I try to save my ammo anyway. I would use a hunting rifle in place of an AK... at least until I got an AK;) I would maybe use a gun with a silencer, but I swear the silencer doesn't work, or barely does, cause every time I try it on a stealth run it ends up waking sleepers anyhow.. Not even sure why it's in the game if it doesn't function properly. Haven't tried one in awhile though, may again in A20 just to see if it still fails at actually being silent. I've thought more about how weapons and their upgrades are locked within certain attributes, got to say I agree, I wish none of them were. There are weapons I never bother with because of that, shame really. Makes me wonder why the F they can't compromise and re-introduce LBD back in alongside the perk system, at least for weapons. There is a mod that does that and it works really well. But I know the LBD conversation in general is "off-limits" these days so nevermind. Maybe they could at least give each weapon it's own place to perk into them outside of the attributes, I dunno, something, but yeah, locking different weapons behind specific attributes still feels janky and off, inappropriate, I do agree with that. Even though I use bows a ton I rarely if ever actually perk far into them, if at all, because of the attribute they are locked behind, it sucks but I just ignore it and use them anyway. I was excited to see LBD again in Valheim, but holy @%$# is the death penalty brutal in that game, especially once you try to level up anything beyond 50. Things start to take forever to level up as it gets higher, but then a single death can remove 2 to 3 levels of a perk, at once. I have a character that I've played since it's release and he's basically stuck, one step forward 2-3 steps back, I @%$#ing hate it and can't take the game seriously anymore because of it. Can spend hours, days, leveling up skills just to lose it all in a flash, often for no good reason. Ruined that game for me, well, ruined caring about my character. Still love the game, but I try not to even look at my skill levels anymore because it ticks me off so much. It has wasted literal days of my time, point being these systems need to be well balanced and not over penalize players or it can ruin the entire experience rather easily.

Do you not use a bow? Guess I am just a heavy bow user, especially early game, but I keep using it throughout, stealth damage headshots are my jam, all the way through. I never expected each perk tree to be a thing unto itself, am always a bit spread out in my builds, INT being the main one I always level up quickest, and furthest. But I look to other trees for all offense weapons, whether ranged or melee. Heck I don't even always perk into bows very far until later in a playthrough, even though I always use the F out of them. To me the perks for offensive weapons are more of a bonus than a necessity. Just seems to me it is meant to be this way, is more of a support/defense/utility tree. Aside from turrets(which are enough imho) I have near zero expectations from INT for ranged/melee help, nor do I think it needs it. But that is just my opinion based on play style/skill focus. Not that you don't have an interesting idea there with the blow gun... but, again, I'd honestly just still use a bow. It's probably an old habit from A16 when LBD was still a thing, is where/when *most* of my 3k+ hrs were spent, though I've kept the habit in every alpha since then because with good aim and the stealth kill bonus it's still enough to clear most of a POI using little more than some stone arrows. I hardcore hunt sleepers like I hunt far more deadly human players in Rainbow 6 Siege, which no AI can compete with. In there "camping", hiding around corners etc, is a big part of that game, but they ain't sleeping, they are very human, very aware, and very looking out/waiting for you. One of my fav ops is Nokk(who also has a Deagle:), who is a stealth attacker, whom I use to hunt Cavera, a stealth defender whose name you never want to hear a teammate yell out during a match, ha(if you know, you know.). Anyway, my point is I know I am biased and have a highly focused skillset tuned by going up against other humans in a very similar fashion. Adapting to stealth in 7dtd is super easy by comparison, even then it is worth a try for anyone rly. Once you get used to it/good at the tactic it is hard to revert, it saves sooo much ammo for later/more demanding situations. Worth a try if they never add a blowgun or other such ranged INT weapon, which I doubt they will, so may as well find an existing alternative, the bow is just my recommendation since I too am a heavy INT player for the most part.

Also, omg Khal I cannot imagine attempting to kill anything radiated with a stun baton, not even a baseball bat, that there is an AK moment for me. Though the junk turret can be helpful alongside me, for sure. I only use my shotgun ammo for the stationary shotty turrets, never the junk variant. I stick with reg junk turrets all the way through, eventually having 2 of course. And I always put switches on them, only turned on if/when need be.

I mainly go INT for defense(turrets), and vehicles, and crafting, etc. Never have I ever once spent points on a baton, put points into stealth(damage) and bows instead. I don't even spend much on upgrades for bats(clubs) or rifles(AK/sniper), with a high headshot rate I don't need to, especially if they sleeping, heck I even stick with stone arrows for a rly long time, iron and steel arrows feel fancy an unnecessary to me, I need that kind of oomf I just pull out the AK, or a Deagle if I haz one. I do like the 9mm, but only sometimes use it, saving most(sometimes all) of my 9mm ammo for base turrets. Point is I don't need help from INT tree for offense, spec into it far more for it's utility. But that's me, just an example. Maybe Khal can try some other weapons, in other areas, if there's a need.