Grue
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Posts posted by Grue
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On 1/15/2023 at 10:29 AM, Jost Amman said:
No random at the moment. But it would be cool to have completely random speeds for some zombies, independently of the game settings.
Or make that variability part of the game settings instead of taking that control away from the players...
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By the way, what happens to the Military Stealth Boots?
Are they still only available through crafting from that one book? Did they get taken out of the game?
I always liked those because they were crafting only, if you wanted them you had to actually work for them, not just get lucky while rooting through a dumpster.
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16 hours ago, meganoth said:
Nonsense. Play a traditional tower defense game some time. Tower defense depends on enemies who usually go along fixed paths where the player distributes his traps and turrets, one main game element is to add traps at chokepoints. So A17 is the true tower defense, independent from advantages and disadvantages of that. Now I would immediately agree if you said you don't care for nomenclature, the more important thing is whether one of the two is more fun.
That is a very, very narrow interpretation of a tower defense game and it is also a poor excuse to justify bad design choices.
Like @Vedui said pre-A17 defenses had to be layered and cover more than one angle of attack like -gasp- an actual tower defense scenario.
Now players are forced to use some variation of a cattle chute design to manage the flow of zombies.
Even the youtube videos are boring now. Instead of running around and actively defending, people just stand in one place and shoot at the conga line.
16 hours ago, meganoth said:And in my view pre-A17 you had a slightly more active role as you were shifting positions while shooting the zombies, and I would agree that it might be more what you would expect from traditional zombies though I would hesitate to term that "realism". The disadvantage though was that it was an attrition game where it made no sense to have differently designed sides on a building. You always built a pillbox and it only mattered how long each side withstood the zombies and how much you could distribute the damage by walking around or the luck of zombie direction changing.
The most serious problem was that all bases got damaged all around which made repairing a long and boring task. I remember in A16 many players complaining that the repair time became a weekly grind
Active defense was the fun part! Actually having to move around and fight from all sides and rushing to repair a breach in the defenses between waves only to realize they are attacking the south wall now instead?
What you guys seem to be missing is that for a lot of people the building and maintaining their base IS the game and that is way more "tower defense" than -waves vaguely- whatever it is you guys are currently trying to do.
16 hours ago, meganoth said:On the other hand A17 and later you have to put much more brains into building, it is more interesting to try out different designs, you have more variation and possibilities. And traps suddenly make sense to add them, they have a much higher effect. And I strongly prefer those advantages to the 20 brain cells you need to use in a A16 horde night to see that some part of the wall is near braking and doing a few steps to the side.
From A17 on I actually have build all sorts of horde bases that all had in common that I (tried to) direct the zombies along paths, I was the architect of their doom, not the passive observer of which direction the zombies might come this time: "Oh, they spawn in the south, let us go ... mmmmh, let me think, ... let me think ... to the south wall then".
Do you really think that!?
I think anyone who does a lot of building would agree the AI changes made base building almost comically easy.
You can AFK a max zombies day 7000 horde with the current AI.
Actually it is not even base building anymore. It is crowd control.
The zombies are so amped up you can't afford to let them touch any surface for more than 10 seconds, so all the designs just run them through some variation of a cattle chute.
A16 hordes were much more fun and challenging.
16 hours ago, meganoth said:Pre-A17 it was an attrition game where it made no sense to have differently designed sides on a building. You always built a pillbox and it only mattered how long each side withstood the zombies and how much you could distribute the damage by walking around or the luck of zombie direction changing.
The most serious problem was that all bases got damaged all around which made repairing a long and boring task.
At least the buildings had different sides. Now it is completely linear. You have the cattle chute and you stand in one spot and shoot/swing your weapon in one direction until they quit coming.
Once you build your base which is always a variation of the same basic design now, horde nights are literally boring.
The time crunch of getting your base repaired between attacks
iswas a major factor in playing the game, that created a need for resource management, time management, shoring up weak spots, planning additional defenses...Now you dust off your horde base once a week, run a bunch of zombies through and forget about it until next week.
Maintenance is down to 5 minutes touching up chipped paint and topping off ammo.
Is that really the plan?
16 hours ago, Crater Creator said:We did get a bigger backpack.
And a bigger tool belt.
And things like raw iron/scrap iron, animal hide/leather, bricks/cobblestone etc. were combined, resulting in fewer types of things to carry.
And we got vehicles that hold more inventory.
And drones that increase that further.And cargo mods that increase that further.
Some people are insatiable. They're going to keep asking for bigger backpacks until they never, ever have to think about an inventory limit.
Almost as if players have been pushed, and pushed, and pushed into a more loot-centric Murder Hobo playstyle that requires cramming as much as possible into your pockets as you locust from one POI to the next.
15 hours ago, Crater Creator said:It seems like one of the game's perennial debates, which can be phrased many ways but one way is: should the zombies be effectual? There are (at least) two camps, and it's difficult to satisfy both of them.
People in the first camp, which has included me at times, bemoan the structural engineer zombies that know the weaknesses of a base, sometimes better than the player that built it does. The usually offered solution is zombies that just beat on random parts of your walls, because, y'know, they're just zombies and we don't expect them to behave overly analytically.
People in the second camp accept the traditional "tower defense" mentality that zombies will take the path of least resistance, and build their bases accordingly. They make funnels, mazes, choke points, kill zones, and what have you that specifically depend on the zombies taking a predictable and "exploitable" path.
This strikes me as a possible zero sum game.
For every step towards zombies that just beat on random parts of your walls, you annoy someone in the second camp. This is not theoretical. Already, one can find plenty of forum threads where a user describes this thoughtful path they constructed for the zombies to march to their doom, only for the zombies to ignore it and beat on something else seemingly at random. I don't know what Vedui is calling tower defense but it requires enemy pathing you can rely on. That is to say, predictability. Otherwise, if the zombies were dumb and just beat on random blocks, base design would be pointlessly trivial. Any blocks you lay down in any configuration would be as good as any other, in a world where zombies beat on blocks at random.
And yet, for every step towards zombies that can reach you and take an efficient route to do it, you annoy someone in the first camp that, again, thinks such zombies are conceptually "too smart for their own good." Immersion is lost, because it's not very zombie-like behavior to them. Maybe I'm not describing the grievance some have here well, but suffice it to say this conflict is not easy to resolve to the satisfaction of both camps.
I can see why, if you're the AI programmer, you'd go with maximally effectual zombies, at least as a draft before making further refinements. You want it to be possible for the zombies to reach the player, which (current bugs aside) they definitely couldn't do before A17. And zombies that deliberately go to sub-optimal places to attack unimportant blocks - that, compared to structural engineer zombies, are there for show, to create the appearance of danger - are wasting resources that could be given to a zombie that's going to do something that matters.
So my thinking on this has evolved. I don't like structural engineer zombies, but I accept the premise that they must be generally capable: effectual at their goal of eventually reaching the player, if the interventions the player puts in the way are insufficient. At least until we get bandits, I see it as a necessary evil.
First, thank you for a well reasoned response.
For the record, I am firmly in the zombies should act like zombies camp. They should not be laser guided structural engineers.
But it is not a completely black or white, zero sum game as you put it.
If you recall from A16, yes zombies would come from different directions and kind of randomly "test" your defenses. They would get stuck on spikes, beat on the closest wall. Typical zombie behavior.
But what happened if they breached the wall or broke your door? Now that there was a path, all the ones nearby would go for it and pour through. Now, as a defender, you have a problem.
My point is, the pathing was already there, A17 just cranked that pathing up to 11 and gave them the magical ability to target the weakest wall from orbit.
Now, if you recall, A17 also drastically increased block damage at the same time. Which in combination effectively turned the zombies into guided ordinance that would find and exploit the weakest part of your defenses faster than you could say "Oh @%$#!"
This completely negated about 75% of static defenses, spikes, moats etc. are nearly useless and the only good wall, is no wall at all because they would just drill through anything you put in front of them in 10 seconds flat.
This essentially forced players to to channel them down a path or they will make their own.
It went from defending your base, to defending a single linear path.
Oh and A17 also took away barbed wire.... which let's face it, was a total @%$# move.
Which brings us to Tower Defense
Since people keep randomly invoking the concept of Tower Defense (as if emulating @%$#ty browser games is some kind of holy grail to be aspired to), I will put it in those terms.
I would submit, that having to defend your entire base, which often includes literal towers, from attacks coming from all sides is more like defending a tower, than exploiting obnoxiously linear pathing to kill a conga line of zombies.
Yes, some pathing is necessary, but we are way up in the "too much of a good thing" territory in terms of the AI pathing, especially if you give them the ability to flawlessly detect and hone in on the path of least resistance.
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2 hours ago, Vedui said:
And that's a good change. I think many of us have seen that over the years crafting has been de-focused, to the point of obsolesce for weapons/armour/tools.
However, this change likely has nothing to do with learn-by-looting, and more due to looting/buying/questing for gear the last few years was simply far superior, as you'd pretty much always have access to higher quality gear than you ever could craft. I'd definitely prefer if loot/quest/bought gear was much more rare, and inferior quality to what you can craft.
What I would like to see is Q6 gear crafting restored, and removed from loot/quest/trader ... want that top quality shotgun? Better skill into it, as you'll never get it from buying or looting it. That would flip the current situation where eventually you still are better off using a looted/quested/bought Q6 piece of gear as you can only craft Q5.
I completely agree, they have it reversed. The crafted items should be superior to loot because it requires a lot more effort/resources to craft something vs ninja-looting skyscrapers.
For what it is worth, I have a small mod that adds the +1 crafting back on the nerdy glasses, but only when you are also under the influence of the Nerd Tots.
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5 hours ago, unholyjoe said:
magazines are different from the books (which still exist) reading the magazines increase the crafting tiers appropriately when you read enough. the books have nothing to do with crafting now but still have perk benefits as they did before.
example and this is only an example.... you may need to read 75 magazines for tools with each tier increasing after every so many mags are read. so if you read say 15 tool magazines then you will be advanced to crafting tier 2.
so now you read books for the perks they give and the last volume bonus and you read magazines to improve your crating tiers. (the mags do not offer any bonuses) and the rules are still the same for now as you can only craft as high as t5 blues.
5 hours ago, Doomofman said:Why do you hate us?
Lol, my sentiments exactly!
With crafting tiers locked behind looting dozens of magazines, AND capping it at Blues...
It seems like good odds that you will loot a tier 6 of any given item long before you will ever be able to craft a tier 5 of the same item. Which would make the whole collection of magazines and item crafting itself an exercise in futility.
It feels like the player agency/control inherent to being able to craft the things you want/need is taking a back seat to an RNG grindfest.
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15 hours ago, Roland said:
Well, relatively speaking good stuff. Its not all OP stuff at all but it is useful stuff. More seeds and raw veggies. Magazines. Crafting ingredients that you will use. It's hard to say why but empty bottles were always kind of meh maybe because after Day 1 or 2 you already had all you would ever need so they were just needless useless placeholders that are now gone so you are finding things that while technically junk it is stuff you can use and need.
It is much more rewarding without the empty bottles. You may wish for them when most of what you find has some usefulness to it and you think, why do I always get good stuff now? This sucks! But so far I haven't missed them being gone from the loot tables.
You heard it here first folks, someone accidentally found "useful stuff" missed by the dev team.
As this exploit might inadvertently lead to viable gameplay, Looting is officially OP!
Next patch will completely remove the loot tables and replace everything with magazines.
Remember it only takes ten "How to Eat" magazines to unlock the ability to digest higher tiered foods like Snowberries and Yucca fruit.
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1 hour ago, Roland said:
I never said I didn't know the historical reference. I said I didn't get what you mean by it in the context of the game and gathering water. How about you just say what you mean plainly.
It is a moot point now, but since you asked.
I suggested it would be better to simply keep water collection the way it currently is.
You listed all the other less preferable ways to obtain water and then acted like that addressed my concern, which it didn't.
That gave the impression that you either completely missed the point or were deliberately talking around it.
We would not need to loot water, if we could collect water as we always have.
We would not need to buy water, if we could collect water as we always have.
We would not need a dew catcher, if we could collect water as we always have.
Thus none of those solutions are appreciably better than simply maintaining the status quo.
Or to put it another way, the changes appear contrived, add needless complexity, and do not appreciably improve the game.
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1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:
Don't worry, now that @Crater Creator is Super Moderator, I'm sure he'll address all your concerns and have TFP change back any game mechanic you don't like.
For every complaint like yours, I see as many (if not more) complaints about the opposite...
*in frustrated voice*
"Why did the zombies ignore my beautiful easy path of least resistance to just stop and bash my walls??"
Go figure...
Now that you mention it, I have hated the zombie AI since A17.
Please bring back the zombies that actually act like zombies instead of the conga line of structural engineers who magically detect and path to the weakest block.
It was far less predicable and exploitable when the zombies would just swarm in waves and start beating on random parts of your walls. Now all horde bases are basically identical because the zombies are too "smart" for their own good.
I'm sure Crater will get right on that.
53 minutes ago, Annihilatorza said:This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.
What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory.
When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.
IMO and I might be completely wrong here, It forces you into one game play style
Need to know how to make concrete
Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.
Need to know how to make a AK47
Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.
Need to know how to make traps
Go to city and kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.
Example
"Its day 13 and I have yet to find a book on how to make concrete and I am still looting, day 14 arrives still looking , find it lunch day 14 but now I dont have enough time to make what I need, so I die and my base gets destroyed. "
You could maybe get them from a trader but that still means your are looting to get the coin.
I have spent hours and hours thinking about this and how it there might a variation I might be missing but I cant seem to find it, everything is now tied to finding books and hoping the RNG does not screw you over.
I know most of this post is pure speculation as we have yet to play this new version but its been 14 months since A20 so I dont really have a choice but to speculate
But mainly, I am just dying to play the new build for me the number one change is the water fix, I cant wait to see it.
Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing.
Anni
Actually it is far worse than that. Instead one schematic you need, the thing you want is locked behind collecting a dozen magazines.
And it will be the same dozen magazines every time you play.
No more "Jackpot!" moments from getting lucky with a forge schematic on day 1,
Or debating spending points to get the recipe you need vs waiting for the next trade day to try to buy one.
The RNG for schematics may have been fickle at times, but it also made every play though unique.
And for most things there was a fall back of spending points to get what you could not find.
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8 hours ago, meilodasreh said:
Aren't you sticking a bit too much to the extremes here?
base building is of course one strong aspect in the game, as well as looting always has been. Or mining. And fighting. And the list goes on.
The new system does encourage looting more, but still has to balance between all the aspects,
because in single player you just have to do them all to survive...and of course this variety of different aspects is mostly what makes the fun in the game.
People who do exclusively one aspect have to be part of a group that does the rest, they all depend on each other.
Your playmates depend on you building/fortifying the base,
while you depend on them bringing you materials, food, guns, ammo,...
So why can't they bring you the corresponding magazines about building/crafting they find?
They will all find few because there's a bigger chance that they find the ones they specced in...but they're a group, so it should add up for you one lonely housekeeper hero.
Granted it's probably not the majority of people, but neither is it an edge case for people who play in groups to divide their labor, for example on a community server supporting a streamer. Or even solo gamers who want to play a low-loot, self-sufficient type of game.
My point is to shine a light on the fact that not everyone plays the game as a roving murder-hobo rummaging through one POI after another.
If they keep chasing that lowest common denominator, it becomes recursive, and everyone plays that way because it is the only way left to play.
It would be nice if the devs would kindly take their thumb off the scales to force gameplay in that direction.
And you are right, one would hope that a good group would help out the support people back home building things and making the hobo stew for everyone.
7 hours ago, Roland said:I don't know what you are trying to say by the "Let them eat cake" reference. Your analogy for removing chopping wood and mining from the game are poor. The ability to harvest water has not been removed. Build some dew collectors and you will harvest plenty of water that can be carried around. Find jars of water in POIs and you are harvesting water that can be carried around. Go to a river and drink your fill which is harvesting water as well. That water can't be carried away but it is harvested and used.
I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.
7 hours ago, Roland said:What necessitates the ability to collect surface water is the infinite supply that it represents. Infinite anything in a survival game is bad news. It may be realistic but it destroys the gameplay.
That generalization is patently false.
Just off the top of my head:
Green Hell, rainforest.
The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.
Raft, literally floating in water.
7 hours ago, Roland said:This only makes you angry because you refuse to accept your role in early access. As long as you disagree and fight against the idea that you signed up to test out the experimental changes the developers make to the game you are going to be perplexed over why TFP changes things without asking us for permission. For 20 alphas now the developers have been making changes and giving them to us to test and play with and then give feedback based on actual play time.
I am not the least bit angry, Roland.
If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.
We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.
Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.
Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it.
7 hours ago, Roland said:If you are on a team and some are doing all the building and others are out looting predominately that is also normal and fine. As a team you are getting all those activities done. The looters will bring back magazines because it will make sense for everyone on the team to specialize in different magazines. Having everyone read whatever they find themselves will be extremely foolish and as soon as people start playing they will realize this. 5 people all reading Sharp Sticks magazine means all five will be able to craft an orange wooden spear. But giving one person all the Sharp Sticks magazines means that one person will be able to craft top tier spears for everyone on the team. There is zero incentive to read all magazines yourself when on a team as that will horribly dilute the magazines. It may not seem that way when thinking of magazines in terms of current A20 books but when teams start playing they will instantly realize that the only thing that makes sense is to divide up who will craft what and then funnel magazines to each team member. Meanwhile builders will still probably lead their teammates in xp farming as they upgrade blocks as they build...
Thank you for finally addressing my concern.
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On 1/6/2023 at 5:22 PM, Roland said:
Point 1: Player Choice
If player choice is of interest to you then you will be pleased to know that the changes have increased player choice by a fair amount. In the past, due to having infinite water from the very start there was zero choice for how to utilize your water ever. You always had plenty to do everything. In A21 you will have to make some choices for how you utilize water. This is a very good thing.
As for dew collectors they are absolutely optional. You can find portable water in loot and you can purchase it from the trader. For drinking you can go to a stream or lake or even a nearby gutter and drink your fill. You can survive at a very basic level purely on what you scavenge or trade for. Now if you want the luxury and quality of life of having infinite water to be able to once again reach the point where you have enough to do whatever you want with it without needing to make tough choices, you may create a dew collector farm which will see you stocked with all the water you'll need. Its a choice....a player choice.
Point 2: The concept of removing containers that hold water in order to force players to use the dew collector is bad
This isn't a new concept. There are no containers for any consumable in the game. Glue, gas, stew, steak and potatoes, pie, canned food, acid, first aid kits, repair kits, and more are consumables that are depicted as being in a container and yet no container actually exists. You can't make a huge pot full of stew and then craft a stack of bowls to go scoop out stew to carry around with you and then bring back the empty bowls to scoop out more stew. You can't fill up your empty gas canisters at a pump and then pour the gas into your vehicle and then bring back the empty canisters to fill them up again. None of the consumables in the game that are depicted in your inventory as being in a container give back that empty container so that you can refill it and they never have. How have you and others possibly been able to continue playing the game without all of these empty containers to be refilled? I will tell you that however it is you have been managing to figure out glue and the rest, you will quickly adapt to water since it will be behaving the same exact way every other single consumable in the game behaves and has behaved for years and years.
The change is not to force players to use dew collectors. You don't have to use dew collectors technically. The change is to bring consistency to the game across the board and at the same time close the book on infinite water beginning at day one.
Point 3: There's no need to waste dev time on the craft system with magazines
Water under the bridge. The feature was done months ago. Now that it is done they WILL release it to their early access players to evaluate and determine how it should be tinkered. They are extremely happy with this latest evolution of the crafting/player progression system. Just as you stated that the hybrid of spending points and collecting schematics was a good balance they will get to a great balance of skillpoints, schematics, and magazines after several months of obtaining player feedback about the system from people who have spent time playing with it instead of making a decision to scrap it from people who are just imagining worst case possibilities using incomplete knowledge and guesses.
Point 4: Players want to play in a Sandbox
Players can play in a sandbox still. But you have to understand that a true sandbox is a play area without rules or constraints so that the player can do whatever they desire. For this game that means you enable godmode and creative mode. Those two modes enabled make 7 Days to Die into a true sandbox experience. In its default form 7 Days to Die is not meant to be a pure sandbox. It is meant to be a game with rules, limits, and consequences. With godmode and creative mode enabled you never need water or food at all and you can build anything out of anything with anything the game has--including some dev tools not available in the default game. You can do whatever you want. You can fly around and spawn a bunch of zombies surrounding a POI and then fly away turn off godmode and approach the POI killing all the zombies guarding it. That's just one example but the sandbox options are endless. If players truly want a sandbox it is always available to them. When they're ready to play a game that has rules and limits and choices that is always waiting for them as well.
Water:
Point 1: Your alternatives to being able to collect water from the environment is basically the equivalent to saying "Let them Eat Cake".
You can loot or buy any resource, but that is a good excuse to remove chopping wood and mining from the game? Obviously not.
Point 2: Even if the goal is to remove all "containers", that does not necessitate removal of the ability to collect surface water.
Balance:
Point 3: Basically all you are saying is here "Too late now! Lay back and take it, it will be over soon."
Point 4: If the game is so bloody broken that your best solution is to "tuRn oN GoD MOdE", then what does that say about the balance of the game?
On 1/6/2023 at 5:50 PM, Roland said:Your playstyle is not typical and by catering to your playerstyle the devs would be cutting out the lionshare of the community. Looting is a staple of this game and always has been. The changes in A21 do enhance scavenging and that change will positively impact the vast majority of players who do enjoy that part of the game. If you really do feel like TFP should listen to its player base then honestly you cannot deny that enhancing the looting and exploring portions of the game is them doing exactly that. You may not like it but you have to admit that "minimal looting" is not going to be the norm for the typical player of 7 Days to Die.
You really mean to tell me that I am the only one who likes building bases? Or mining? Or crafting?
Someone has to stay home to build, at the very least, a functional horde base for the group.
Or is base building "not the norm" in your opinion?
Do you just run from one POI to the next looting piles of garbage with no place to store any of it?
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8 hours ago, Jost Amman said:
I don't need to address them, because I think the current A21 implementation could be the right choice.
I could discuss any number of theories about how the game should be, but why? The devs make educated choices on their game. I can agree or disagree with them, like them or not, but I won't discuss John Doe's theories on how the game should be, because I'm only interested, to the most, in discussing feedback. This is not feedback, this is preemptive whining based on how you imagine the game will play out.
I'll gladly discuss feedback on A21 experimental when it's out, though.
I see you are not a fan of thinking ahead to avoid mistakes.
Have you heard the saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or perhaps, "Measure twice, cut once"?
The time to correct course is before the mistake is made.
It is far better to give the feedback at the concept stage than to wait for them to @%$# things up then complain about it after the damage is done. By then, they will have already wasted the dev time on their new anti-features so they are more likely to fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy and run with it, than they are to correct the completely foreseeable problem(s) they should have avoided in the first place.
6 hours ago, meganoth said:Which choice exactly is prevented?
The choice to go to the nearest pond/river/swimming pool to collect as much dirty water as I need.
Yes, it still needs to be boiled for food/drinks, but I should still be able to go get it in virtually unlimited quantities outside of a desert biome.
I keep hearing people say some variation of it being for game balance. That's fine, but if the implementation is anything like the A20 farming nerf, hard pass.
They made farming such a low-yield, pain-in-the-ass, time sink that it is practically not worth the effort to farm anymore.
Adding more pointless grind and wasting my time does not make for better gameplay.
As it stands, it sounds like this water nerf is just adding a pointless resource bottleneck and wasting my time for no good reason.
So let's assume, as Aldranon suggested, that the river water is contaminated with cesium for the sake of storyline and balance, what then?
For things like glue, that should not matter, we should be able to collect and use dirty water in bulk for that as we always have.
For food and drinks, logically more processing would be needed to clean the water and make it potable. Filtering, boiling etc. That makes room for a water purifier to be added in late game to handle filtering/decontaminating large quantities of dirty water.
In the mean time, there is the dew catcher comes in to provide a more limited amount of clean drinking water with minimal processing needed. Low quantity/higher quality that is the trade off.
The goal being to make the dew catcher they want to add an optional extra instead of a forced bottleneck.
6 hours ago, meganoth said:The thing is that the magazine system does not force normal players to do anything that they aren't doing already. Are you going through POIs collecting stuff? If yes, you will automatically find magazines. You don't need to change your routine at all if you don't flat out ignore the scavenging part
Ironically, my playstyle is about doing very minimal looting. The bulk of my time is spent mining, crafting, and base building.
I would rather craft a new tool than go loot one.
Under the current system, if there is something you want right away, a crucible for example, spend points on it. If you rather wait try your luck at finding a working crucible or crucible schematic by looting appropriate POIs, more power to you.
With the proposed changes, instead of needing to learn/buy/loot a single schematic, it now appears the crafting is going to be locked behind looting a bunch of magazines.
All that does is add more grind and I don't see how locking both the schematics and item quality behind a paywall of a magazines is going to make the game better in any appreciable way.
But that is almost beside the point.
I am still a bit wary of "overhauls" because the A17 skill overhaul was a steaming pile of dog @%$# and it took them literally years to make it viable again.
To put it plainly, the value of the proposed changes does not seem to outweigh the risk that they will @%$# it up from a basic risk/reward perspective.
Once bitten, twice shy.
2 hours ago, meganoth said:I made a comparison. Avoiding to use the dew collector is as easy or difficult as avoiding the forge. I didn't say anything about HOW difficult it is.
In effect if Grue is okay with the forge being in the game he should be okay with the dew collector as well.
Water is daily necessary on a survival level, by comparison using a forge is a luxury.
Your character won't die for lack of a forge.
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2 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:
Every time I see someone speaking for "a group" I think how weak their argument must be.
The water changes have been made for game balance, stop.
Realism or believability have nothing to do with it.
Why don't you complain about carrying TONS of materials in your backpack?
I'll tell you why: BECAUSE IT'S A @%$#ING GAME!
And yet you still managed not to address the points made in the argument.
Thanks for your non-contribution.
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11 hours ago, unholyjoe said:
no. they kept it simple.
doesnt matter if rainy, foggy, windy or snowy as it doesnt change one drop of water.
day nor night does not change anything.
biomes DO NOT make any differences either.
only thing that changes its behavior is CODE and maybe a little xml (i wont swear about xml as i did not check it).
oh i did forget one thing.... it can be damaged/destroyed and when that happens... you dont get no water.
You know what would be real simple? Taking a jar down to a @%$#ing stream. That is simple.
Yes, Green Hell has dew catchers, that does not mean 7d2d needs to do it too. Even if you just "want to use this cool dew catcher model someone made", then by all means add it to the game, but it certainly doesn't make any sense to get rid of stone age concept of collecting river water to force players to use the new dew catcher, does it?
For one thing, Green Hell has dry seasons, 7d2d does not. And even in the dry season players could simply build near a source of water, and thus not need one.
It comes down to player choice.
The way this mechanic is proposed to function takes more player choice away from the game than it adds.
Honestly it is not even the addition dew catchers that @%$#es me off, it is removing the concept of "things that hold water" (i.e., jars) to force me to use a dew catcher that literally outputs jars of water that makes no @%$#ing sense whatsoever.
Players should at the very least be able to ignore that dew catchers exist if they do not want to use them, and have them as an option in a desert biome where they logically might some have a use for it.
Please stop railroading players with mechanics that should be at the very most, optional.
Which brings me to the skill system.
The current skill with experience points and collectible schematics strikes a reasonable balance, no need to waste dev time reinventing the wheel for this ridiculously convoluted magazine-based education system which forces people to waste time collecting McGuffins.
Players want to play in a sandbox, not a cattle chute
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Quite frankly, they need to stop @%$#ing with core mechanics and focus on actual content.
A21 is shaping up to be another steaming pile of @%$# like A17 was.
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Does the number after
5 hours ago, saminal said:Just due to the nature of having those explicitly named properties, there's no way to neatly add them without falling into one trap or the other. If they didn't need the number in the name, I'd definitely just be using an insertAfter.
Does the number after the name have to be sequential? If not you can start at higher numbers to make room for other mods, and just have to deconflict with which numbers are used.
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Also, the way you handle adding the new blocks to take water from is a little bit imprecise, by removing the whole entry for "emptyWaterJar" and replacing it with your own it creates conflicts with other mods that for example changes the stack size for those jars.
There are a couple more surgical ways to handle it, for example you could use an "insertAfter" to place your additions to the bottom of the " property class="Action1" " section that you are modifying.
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The 60 slot backpack has an extra file "loot_new.xml" that is not included with the 90 slot backpack. What is it for?
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I just found your mod, it looks really nice.
I like the wireless, but one thing I wanted to mention though, you can offset were the wire connects to make it look better using "WireOffset" (values are x,y,z) and might require some trial and error to get right.
<property name="WireOffset" value="0,.5,0"/>
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Seems to work well enough, but I have not tried the excavators yet.
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In several different maps I see a bunch of spiderweb roads running parallel routes to POIs that are right next to each other instead of using a common road to access the area.
I feel like the road generation would benefit from code to strongly encourage the roads to seek and connect with other nearby roads whenever possible.
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This is an impressive RWG. Is there a way by chance to adjust the average surface elevation/depth to bedrock?
Since they moved bedrock to +3, I feel like I am missing 50+ blocks of tunneling room and I cannot dig the super deep tunnels I was used to doing in previous builds.
For example if the "sea level" of the map is currently at 35 meters, is there a way to make that more like 50?
It would make the average elevation higher, valleys deeper, and mountains less high relative to the average.
What category does the Indian burial grounds fall under? Outback POI?
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Is there a way to adjust the level of the surface relative to bedrock? I want the ground to be deeper so there is more dirt/stone/ore between the average surface and the bedrock without making everything into a mountain range.
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Ragsy_Useful_Tires
They are all over the place but often get ignored as you can find polymers in blinds whilst looting buildings , this small modlet gives a small chance you may get a full tire (Not Full Wheel) when destroying it , more intersting though is consider this:
I like the concept, but that is the purpose of the tire once you get one?
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I like your mods, keep up the good work!
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Alpha 21 Dev Diary
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